jcollins and spongsdad, I would thank you to get your facts right before blaming unions or drivers for train crew shortages. It is the TOC's function to ensure they have enough staff to cover the service, not the workforce's. It is the union's function to protect its members from practices such as working too much overtime and putting their livelihoods AND the passengers at risk through the resultant fatigue and stress. Which without a union would be rife, be certain of it. For the thousandth time on this forum, a driver working a rest day is like a Mon-Fri worker working their weekend. You do not give up your rest days without due reward. It is a classic error for a TOC to rely on rest day working to cover its service. The TOC should only use rest day as a last resort and should ensure that it is doing what it needs to do to recruit and retain enough staff in terms of the service plus cover for sickness, holiday and so on. None of us come to work for fun; we do it to make a living and like everyone else we want to enjoy our time off.
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Northern Rail crew shortages.
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jcollins and spongsdad, I would thank you to get your facts right before blaming unions or drivers for train crew shortages. It is the TOC's function to ensure they have enough staff to cover the service, not the workforce's. It is the union's function to protect its members from practices such as working too much overtime and putting their livelihoods AND the passengers at risk through the resultant fatigue and stress. Which without a union would be rife, be certain of it. For the thousandth time on this forum, a driver working a rest day is like a Mon-Fri worker working their weekend. You do not give up your rest days without due reward. It is a classic error for a TOC to rely on rest day working to cover its service. The TOC should only use rest day as a last resort and should ensure that it is doing what it needs to do to recruit and retain enough staff in terms of the service plus cover for sickness, holiday and so on. None of us come to work for fun; we do it to make a living and like everyone else we want to enjoy our time off.
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Oh come on, the 'exspurts' on here are at least up for a laugh, they must be with the cr+p they are posting! 
"I pay your wages" blah blah blah! :roll:
Of course if Northern stuck to the agreements they made about only using RDW to cover training/ route learning etc then all the depots with drivers lacking route knowledge wouldnt exist because all the drivers would have got their training/route learning done with their scheduled work being covered by other drivers working rest days, Northern management have not kept up their end of the bargain because they wouldnt pay the RD men to cover the jobs so other drivers could complete their outstanding training/route learning, so ASLEF have not sanctioned any more RD work. It is pretty much that simple! But then got to get the digs in at the nasty unions protecting their members best interests havent we rfather than blame the real villians who agreed to proposal to sort out the outstanding training/ route learning issues but then didnt follow through with it! :roll:
Maybe if other industries had stuck together in the past instead of going all me me me a few years ago you wouldnt be so jealous of us railstaff, united we stand divided we fall etc and railstaff (by and large) are united!
"I pay your wages" blah blah blah! :roll:
Of course if Northern stuck to the agreements they made about only using RDW to cover training/ route learning etc then all the depots with drivers lacking route knowledge wouldnt exist because all the drivers would have got their training/route learning done with their scheduled work being covered by other drivers working rest days, Northern management have not kept up their end of the bargain because they wouldnt pay the RD men to cover the jobs so other drivers could complete their outstanding training/route learning, so ASLEF have not sanctioned any more RD work. It is pretty much that simple! But then got to get the digs in at the nasty unions protecting their members best interests havent we rfather than blame the real villians who agreed to proposal to sort out the outstanding training/ route learning issues but then didnt follow through with it! :roll:
Maybe if other industries had stuck together in the past instead of going all me me me a few years ago you wouldnt be so jealous of us railstaff, united we stand divided we fall etc and railstaff (by and large) are united!
Exactly , an agreement was negotiated and reached. One side did not keep to that agreement now the other side is refusing to enter into an agreement without further negotiations . Seems fair to me
Dont forget by sanctioning RDW for road learning the union is actually doing something that directly benefits the TOC and the passengers . Its not the unions fault that you have depots where loads of drivers are short on routes .
The fact that there is not enough train crew to let people go and do their outstanding road learning is nothing to do with the Union or the current traincrew . If getting enough trainees in to make this a possibility is a problem perhaps more should be looked at in terms of investing in training or asking managers why it is taking so long to turn trainees around . This is something the local council at least in my depot have expressed concern about however they are not there to do the TOC's job for them .
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whoosh
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The company has lost the goodwill of the workers to WORK ON THEIR DAYS OFF.
Those EVIL trade unions!!!!!
Some people's thought (or lack of) processes astound me.
Those EVIL trade unions!!!!!
Some people's thought (or lack of) processes astound me.
I Echo this comment, I have used Northern Rail Services for different reasons all my life and i have to admit the current firm operates the Services better than the others.
Minilad
Established Member
I am waiting for the calls for the drivers to be forced to work their rest days, thats what normally spouts off these threads!
Won't somebody think of the passengers (They pay our wages)
whoosh
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Northern Rail is heavily subsidised. Due to rail workers (extortionate?!) wages, they are actually more likely to be paying more towards the service being provided than the passengers are, via income tax.
The passengers would do well to remember that.
Have a nice day!
The passengers would do well to remember that.
Have a nice day!
TOCDriver
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Northern Rail is heavily subsidised. Due to rail workers (extortionate?!) wages, they are actually more likely to be paying more towards the service being provided than the passengers are, via income tax.
The passengers would do well to remember that.
Have a nice day!
A somewhat silly comment, jovial or not, in my humble opinion. Quite insulting to those who pay a few hundred quid each month and then to walk into quite often hot, packed and genuinly unpleasant environments each day.
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whoosh
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There's plenty of silly comments on here, I'm sure another one won't hurt.
I used to be a commuter once (although not in the North), and got thoroughly fed up of it.
I used to be a commuter once (although not in the North), and got thoroughly fed up of it.
Jamesb1974
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Congratulations. Post your address and I'll send you a card.
Hellfire
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So why don't Northern have enough drivers. Is it because they used to have them and they went elsewhere. Do Northern pay less than other TOCs?
mafeu
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Standing on the packed 14.15 Victoria to Leeds formed of one carriage. Is this a normal Sunday service or does it have connection to the subject?
Nothing reported specifically for that service. Although there is a report of disruption to services between Manchester and Rochdale due to vandalism at Moston.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Northern Rail is heavily subsidised. Due to rail workers (extortionate?!) wages, they are actually more likely to be paying more towards the service being provided than the passengers are, via income tax.
The passengers would do well to remember that.
Have a nice day!
I really hope those comments are firmly tongue in cheek!!
Because they didn't recruit enough a few years ago (actually I think I am right in saying they have always been under establishment) and more drivers have left for other TOCs who have better work, better trains and better pay.
I can't think why they left?
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Northern (East side) Drivers do not receive any extra for a Sunday turn, it's part of the working week, so just like any other day.
Hellfire
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It seems a bit of an anachronism in this day and age that some areas of the railway still treat sundays as a special day.
I work in a sector that is 24/7 and weekends are just another day. if people work a Saturday or Sunday they don't get extra money, they just get other days off in the week.
The only extra pay we get is for night working, to recognise the well publicised health risks.
Is there some reason why this can't work on the railways?
I work in a sector that is 24/7 and weekends are just another day. if people work a Saturday or Sunday they don't get extra money, they just get other days off in the week.
The only extra pay we get is for night working, to recognise the well publicised health risks.
Is there some reason why this can't work on the railways?
Because it's a nice perk to have and the companies aren't willing to pay what the staff want for it is one side of the coin.
The other is that Sundays in the working week means having to employ more staff to cover them so once you've bought them you have to pay in the form of increased headcount anyway.
The other is that Sundays in the working week means having to employ more staff to cover them so once you've bought them you have to pay in the form of increased headcount anyway.
Sundays are a "special day " in retail as well with trading hours restricted and some employers do pay extra .
I personally dont treat sunday as anything special and work a lot of them but im young and dont have any family . I however would not be willing to give up the right to refuse to work sundays because one day I want to have a family .
But I understand that for a lot of people at my depot with kids Sunday is one of the few days they get to spend with their family due to the fact that you work 3/4 Saturdays and they work shifts during the week .So an extra day off in the week is no use to these people .
This is yet another argument of "people in other industries dont get it so why should people on the railway " when really if you want it in your industry go and try and get it for yourself . Stop comparing what other people have and saying just because you dont have it they shouldn't .
Hellfire
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But the number of hours driving required would still be the same, it would just mean that instead of people being paid to work a rest day, other people would work it as their normal turn.
The headcount would increase, which would be a good thing as it builds more flexibility into the system, but the overall staff cost would remain the same, assuming the service level did too.
I can see why some drivers see it as a perk but, if it affects the service to the passenger, the system needs to change. In any case, people need to rest, that's what a rest day is for, especially in a safety critical role like train driving.
Is it the TOCs who don't want to change, or the staff who don't want to lose the opportunity of extra pay?
The headcount would increase, which would be a good thing as it builds more flexibility into the system, but the overall staff cost would remain the same, assuming the service level did too.
I can see why some drivers see it as a perk but, if it affects the service to the passenger, the system needs to change. In any case, people need to rest, that's what a rest day is for, especially in a safety critical role like train driving.
Is it the TOCs who don't want to change, or the staff who don't want to lose the opportunity of extra pay?
If the headcount increases, so do staff costs. It's cheaper for companies to pay existing employees than it is to recruit, as they don't have to pay for training, uniform, NI contributions and so on.
It's the TOC's that want to keep it the way it is (although some already have moved to Sundays inside the working week). Unions want Sundays in, but not all staff would agree that's it's a desirable thing.
It's the TOC's that want to keep it the way it is (although some already have moved to Sundays inside the working week). Unions want Sundays in, but not all staff would agree that's it's a desirable thing.
Hellfire
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Sunday is not a 'special day' in retail as regards the staff. The restricted opening hours were agreed after pressure from religious organisations. Even then you could argue that neither Jews or Muslims see Sunday as special
None of the big retailers, as far as I know, pay more per hour on a Sunday.
If you choose to work in an industry that is a seven day one, you should accept you will have to work at weekends. how would you feel if you became seriously ill on a Sunday and were told the nearest hospital was closed because staff had decided they didn't want to work?
Yeah you're right. We should let them alter our terms and conditions that were fought for many years ago with absolutely no recourse.
Let's just hand them over, where do I sign?
LateThanNever
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Agree with all this. But the real fault seems to me to lie with the management. What could be easier to say you want the terms of your staff to be made the same throughout the company? But they don't want a fight when they've only got 2 years (or whatever it is) to make any money and then it will be somebody else's problem. The wonderful franchise system strikes again (as it were).
Hellfire
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No one is saying you hand over terms and conditions without recourse. In my workplace, management negotiated buy outs with existing staff to compensate them for the loss of income. At the same time all new staff were recruited on new terms and conditions which covered seven day working.
The fact is the present system is obviously not working. No industry can work on the basis that staff may or may not choose to turn up for work on a Sunday
Soways need to be found to change it. That doesn't mean existing staff suffer
Where I am now Sunday is a special day with enhanced pay, but nights are just a normal shift (unless it starts on a Sunday) and are paid at normal rate, so not so different from you.
Why should you get extra pay for nights? They are just shifts like all the others!
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You think?
What you forget is that overtime is not pensionable so the company save that,
The extra staff (at least another 15%) would all need training (more cost),
The extra staff ewould need managing so you would need extra managers,
Plus the afore mentioned uniforms, equipment etc costs,
If they want to change our terms and and conditions what do we get in return? More costs!
So yeah it's realky easy to sort out! :roll:
How many times are we going to go over the same old Sh+t, can't some of it be made a sticky so we haven't got to keep explaining it to the terminally jealous every month or so?
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Actually you are otherwise you will have drivers earning different amounts for doing the same work!
How are you going to roster things with drivers at the same depot being on different T&Cs, it would be a complet nightmare!
Fact remains if you work in retail on a sunday unless you work for a nasty employer that has you in for hours before and after trading hours there is only a very limited number of hours you can work . Meaning you still get chance to see your family and all of that . One of the retailers I have worked for did pay extra but I accept that across the board its not the norm .
TBH where I work when you go from sat late to monday early as a guard sundays are your transition between lates and earlier or the other way round meaning to be honest you need your rest especially going lates into earlies . I rarely do a sunday on those weeks .One of the most extreme examples if you finish at 00:01 Sunday morning you cant work till 12:01 however if you are in early Monday you might be in 6:00 , meaning you can work for 6 hours but It really would not be good for you .
I did choose to work in an industry that was 7 days . However when I took my job it was offered to me on the basis that Sundays where optional . If this is to be changed from the terms and conditions I accepted when I joined up then I want something in return for that .
I could use the you chose to work in an industry with night shifts so shouldn't get extra for that argument .
There are health effects of the massive variation in shifts that traincrew work as well .
I think many traincrew at my depot would accept working sundays (drivers already do unless they can get cover) If it meant that they got more Saturdays off however as I said we currently work 3/4 Saturdays so how are people that work shifts through the week supposed to spend time with their families if they are expected to work most Saturdays and then some Sundays .
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