Northern Rail Fine Warning: Failure to produce railcard at kiosk

[scipiiouse]

Hi all,

So a few years ago I came to you guys with some Northern Rail woes and luckily it was all sorted out and I dodged a £1,000 bullet.

However, once again I'm under the radar and I'm not too sure whether Northern Rail have much of a case this time, but they've decided to try and pursue me for a £1,000 fine.

The story is as follows and happened on 12th January, 2015:

Deciding to visit visit my friend in Sheffield for his birthday, I prepurchased a return ticket for the journey using The Trainline a few days before the actual journey. I used my 16-25 Railcard for this transaction.

Walking through Manchester the day before the journey, I was heading past Oxford Road trainstation and decided I might as well pick up my ticket then instead of rushing on the day to get it.

The machines were either out of order or in use when I got there, so I headed to the kiosk to collect the ticket. At the time I had my debit card that I used for the tickets but not my railcard because I was just walking through town and decided to get the tickets on a whim.

After handing over my debit card and giving the reference number, the staff member asked to see my railcard. I told him that I didn't have it on me and he told me that he would take my details due to failing to present my railcard.

I was a bit concerned but at the same time, but the months passed and I heard no word until the letter found itself in my pigeonhole at my building's pigeonhole this morning. Still, I kept my ticket just in case.

Do Northern Rail really have that much of a case here? On the one hand, I didn't present my railcard, but the ticket wasn't even for that day and I hadn't travelled on a train, gone past the barrier or even attempted to board a train, I was just picking up my tickets for a future journey. I'm considering writing a letter to them explaining this with a photocopy of the ticket, but I'm really not sure how to progress with this.

 

[najaB]

Do Northern Rail really have that much of a case here?

No. None.

 

[DaleCooper]

I'm intrigued to know what the letter says, what are they accusing you of doing?

 

[scipiiouse]

I'm intrigued to know what the letter says, what are they accusing you of doing?

The letter is pretty similar to the previous one I got. I think they have a copy and paste one for these things.

They've accused me of 'failure to present a railcard at the request of a Revenue Protection Officer when attempting to travel on a Northern Rail service.'

Curious, given that the vast majority of the trains that run between Manchester and Sheffield are Cosscountry.

 

[GadgetMan]

I'm considering writing a letter to them explaining this with a photocopy of the ticket.....

.... and the railcard valid at the time of travel????

 

[najaB]

The letter is pretty similar to the previous one I got. I think they have a copy and paste one for these things.

They've accused me of 'failure to present a railcard at the request of a Revenue Protection Officer when attempting to travel on a Northern Rail service.'

Curious, given that the vast majority of the trains that run between Manchester and Sheffield are Cosscountry.

Where is the ticket kiosk at Oxford Road? I'm guessing it is in the public area and not beyond any barriers?

 

[scipiiouse]

.... and the railcard valid at the time of travel????

Yes. This one is valid between 14/08/2015 and 13/08/2015. The only thing was that I didn't have the card when I picked up the ticket. I did travel with the card the next day though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Where is the ticket kiosk at Oxford Road? I'm guessing it is in the public area and not beyond any barriers?

Yeah. It's kind of half-and-half. The barrier sits about halfway along the kiosk.

 

[GadgetMan]

Was it the ticket office clerk that took your details or some sort of barrier/revenue staff who may have mistook you as having travelled without a railcard when they questioned you?

 

[najaB]

Yeah. It's kind of half-and-half. The barrier sits about halfway along the kiosk.

Then you have nothing to worry about. While it is true that a ticket office is supposed to ask for your railcard when you collect your ticket, they should just refuse to vend them. You weren't in the platform area and weren't attempting to travel.

 

[PermitToTravel]

This doesn't really add up at all. Even to cross the barrier to use the window beyond it, one still doesn't need a ticket.

 

[gray1404]

Northern Rail have nothing of a case. You have not committed any offence whatsoever. As you rightfully say you were not travelling but merely picking up the tickets. As such you were not using the tickets nor traveling on the railway with a railcard discounted ticket at the same.

This is really bad on the part of Northern. Is the OP able to report this matter directly to Transport Focus for their involvement? You certainly need not pay anything. You have done NOTHING wrong based on the information given.

Were you able to collect the tickets from you trainline booking the net day and use them without issue?

 

[najaB]

This is really bad on the part of Northern. Is the OP able to report this matter directly to Transport Focus for their involvement?

I believe that the TOC has to be given an opportunity to correct their mistake before TF will get involved.

 

[jkdd77]

Since six months have passed from the date of the incident without an information for a summons being laid before a court, Northern couldn't prosecute even if they had a case, which they most certainly don't.

 

[gray1404]

I believe that the TOC has to be given an opportunity to correct their mistake before TF will get involved.

That's the annoying thing isn't it. They can make such a huge cock up like this and still be given the chance to "put it right" before anyone external gets involved.

In that case I would consider making a formal complaint to Northern by reply, give them 28 days to reply then if no reply received, if if their first reply back isn't good enough, take the matter straight to Transport Focus.

You also have the option of just totally ignoring the letter. The burden is on them to prove you have done something wrong rather then for you to prove you haven't.

 

[crehld]

Having been wrongly pursued for prosecution by Northern for failing to purchase a ticket from a non-existent ticket office and TVM, I have sympathy with you. It was resolved after four months and several letters which simply repeated the basic facts of the situation (in my case this was simply "thank you for you letter dated xxxxxx. I reiterate the point made in my previous letters to you, the last of which was on xxxxxx: there is no ticket office or a ticket vending machine at Hellifield"). Eventually they got the message. A similar approach might work here, but stick to your guns!! Simply state you were at the station to collect pre booked tickets and that no attempt to travel was made on the day in question.

 

[gray1404]

and seriously make sure you try to get compensation out of them for your costs too.

If you can visit your local Citizen's Advise too, get them to speak to Northern on your behalf. Its amazing how when someone calls in a formal capacity they soon back down (this may or may not work with Northern.)

 

[island]

The only mistake you made was using thetrainline, which is always more expensive than booking your ticket directly with a train company. Northern has no case against you.

As mentioned above, any prosecution laid against you would now be out of time, so if you are minded to respond at all, simply state that you were not travelling on the 12th of January, merely collecting tickets on behalf of a person who was travelling on [whatever future date], and that you do not expect to hear from them again in the matter.

 

[yorkie]

They've accused me of 'failure to present a railcard at the request of a Revenue Protection Officer when attempting to travel on a Northern Rail service.'

They have no case; the ticket you collected was dated for the 13th. You were collecting the ticket on the 12th and were not attempting to travel with it.

I regularly collect tickets which I am not intending to use for immediate travel, and tickets which I will never be using to travel (ie, I have booked on behalf of someone else).

Were you handed the ticket, and were you able to use it as planned on the 13th? Are you out of pocket in any way?

 

[scipiiouse]

They have no case; the ticket you collected was dated for the 13th. You were collecting the ticket on the 12th and were not attempting to travel with it.

I regularly collect tickets which I am not intending to use for immediate travel, and tickets which I will never be using to travel (ie, I have booked on behalf of someone else).

Were you handed the ticket, and were you able to use it as planned on the 13th? Are you out of pocket in any way?

Yeah. They still gave me the ticket but they wouldn't hand it over to me until I'd given them some information which they used for the fine they sent me.

I honestly thought very little of it at the time. I thought they were just checking my details against the transaction on the system or something to make sure I was who I claimed to be even though I didn't have a railcard.

What kind of response should I make to them?

 

[PermitToTravel]

A two word one

edit: assuming that everything is exactly as you've told us it is

 

[DaleCooper]

What kind of response should I make to them?

Send them an invoice for a suitable amount to cover the costs and time involved in dealing with their error.

 

[najaB]

What kind of response should I make to them?

Just say exactly what you have said here: you were not travelling so you have no case to answer. Say that you consider the matter closed, and thank them for closing the matter an their side.

 

[MikeWh]

I was a bit concerned but at the same time, but the months passed and I heard no word until the letter found itself in my pigeonhole at my building's pigeonhole this morning. Still, I kept my ticket just in case.

When was the letter dated? If it had somehow been very delayed (before you found it) is it possible that the case has been listed (or even heard) in your absence? Whilst you have done nothing wrong at all, if the letter was dated nearer to Jan 12th than Aug 3rd I'd be inclined to make some enquiries to see if anything else has happened.

If the letter was dated after July 12th then Northern really are being silly and you've nothing to worry about.

 

[Greenback]

Northern really don't seem to have covered themselves in glory on this one. It's completely ludicrous from the start.

 

[crehld]

Northern really don't seem to have covered themselves in glory on this one. It's completely ludicrous from the start.

Based on previous experience this is not surprising in the least! Northern's approach to revenue protection is well meaning, but completely falls apart on implementation.

 

[DaleCooper]

This contact may be useful (he's a member of this forum) he posted twice in the following thread:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=118712

Josh Raven
Head of Customer Experience
Northern Rail.

 

[Greenback]

Based on previous experience this is not surprising in the least!

Indeed. While I don't really have an objection with their £80 settlements to avoid court in principle, the way that scheme is administered is pretty poor.

 

[talldave]

I have to admit this thread makes me realise I was wrong to think that Southern's incompetence couldn't be beaten.

I would also advise invoicing them for a minimum of £80 for dealing with their incompetence; then push it through the small claims court when they don't pay.

As for a "Head of Customer Experience" - you're kidding right? That implies there's more than one person responsible for inflicting this s**t on fare paying customers. I'm imagining a whole office full of idiots, managed by a Ricky Gervais type character

 

[snail]

It's kind of half-and-half. The barrier sits about halfway along the kiosk.

That barrier separates the main windows from the excess fare window. If you enter from the street and buy a ticket you have to go back and do a u-turn to the main barriers to get to the trains.

NR photo of excess fare window

 

[ainsworth74]

But in any event Manchester Victoria isn't a compulsory ticket area so being barrier side without a ticket doesn't constitute an offence.