Northern Rail Fine Warning: Failure to produce railcard at kiosk

[najaB]

But in any event Manchester Victoria isn't a compulsory ticket area so being barrier side without a ticket doesn't constitute an offence.

I think we are just trying to understand how Northern came to the conclusion that the OP was attempting to travel. I totally agree that no ticket was required in order to be where the OP was.

It really does boggle the mind how Northern can think that they have a case here.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Northern really don't seem to have covered themselves in glory on this one. It's completely ludicrous from the start.

Quite. Refuse to pay. The worst they can do is send a DCA after you (as they have not laid the case before a court within 6 months), but it is an unenforceable debt (i.e. no debt at all).

 

[Ediswan]

I think we are just trying to understand how Northern came to the conclusion that the OP was attempting to travel.

I am going to make a guess. I say again, a guess. I was not there. I have no special knowledge or additional information. This is a guess.

Person arrives at ticket desk to collect a railcard discounted ticket, but without the railcard. Ticket seller decides to be helpful and issues the ticket anyway. However, in an effort to catch fraudsters, they mention the need to carry the card and take details. If the ticket is then used without the card, harder to claim ignorance. Prosecution department then does 2+2=5 and believes, based on the collection of the ticket alone, that there was an attempt to travel without the card.

As I say, a guess. Could be completely wrong.

 

[najaB]

Person arrives at ticket desk to collect a railcard discounted ticket, but without the railcard. Ticket seller decides to be helpful and issues the ticket anyway. However, in an effort to catch fraudsters, they mention the need to carry the card and take details. If the ticket is then used without the card, harder to claim ignorance. Prosecution department then does 2+2=5 and believes, based on the collection of the ticket alone, that there was an attempt to travel without the card.

As I say, a guess. Could be completely wrong.

If that is what happened then I can only say that Northern's prosecutions department is staffed by complete numpties. That's like prosecuting someone for drink driving because yesterday they were seen with a bottle of vodka and today they are driving.

 

[crehld]

If that is what happened then I can only say that Northern's prosecutions department is staffed by complete numpties. That's like prosecuting someone for drink driving because yesterday they were seen with a bottle of vodka and today they are driving.

I believe this is the most likely explanation.

 

[Merseysider]

If that is what happened then I can only say that Northern's prosecutions department is staffed by complete numpties. That's like prosecuting someone for drink driving because yesterday they were seen with a bottle of vodka and today they are driving.

Northern's prosecution department appear overzealous, to put it one way. I believe one forum member was threatened with prosecution for not buying a ticket at a station where it was impossible to buy a ticket (Hellifield). I also received a RoRA letter last year because Northern's staff didn't know how to issue excess tickets at the origin and told me to pay at destination (revenue block).

To the OP: I would reply curtly to Northern's letter outlining why the matter is now concluded and should progress no further. Were it I, I would be tempted to slip in a £10 "admin fee" for any further dealings

 

[crehld]

Northern's prosecution department appear overzealous, to put it one way. I believe one forum member was threatened with prosecution for not buying a ticket at a station where it was impossible to buy a ticket (Hellifield).

Yep. That was me.
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I won't mention the two £80 failure to pay notices picked up on two separate trips to Saltaire, which also shouldn't have been issued

 

[Starmill]

If you've arrived to travel and are waiting for the ticket office, or if you have just arrived by train and are waiting for the ticket office you might be directed by staff to use the windows on either side of the barriers, regardless of which group you are in. This is just so they can keep the queue balanced out.

 

[34D]

However, once again I'm under the radar and I'm not too sure whether Northern Rail have much of a case this time, but they've decided to try and pursue me for a £1,000 fine.

until I'd given them some information which they used for the fine they sent me.

Can we be crystal clear what has been received here, please? Is it:

-a letter from a magistrates court setting out that you have been convicted and fined?

-a letter from northern rail saying you could be fined 1k if you travel without a railcard

-a first letter from Northern Rail saying they intend to commence an action against you

-a second/third letter re the above

Do be aware that some offences (I'm thinking of Fraud Act here, but others also) are not summary offences where the information must be laid within six months. Also, even for a byelaw matter, you're not out of the six months deadline yet, when court paperwork-processing delays of maybe six weeks are factored in.

I'm just saying the above for completeness, and in case the op's story is not as stated. I do not mean any slur on them.

If everything is as per the thread, then work on getting a 'no further action' from the prosecutions dept, then look to request compensation/apology etc.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I'd be tempted just to write to them and say "See you in Court" in a large font.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'd be tempted just to write to them and say "See you in Court" in a large font.

It's probably best for the OP to resist that temptation. There remain the risk of loss, however unlikely, and we don't know what evidence the Company would be relying on). But as stated in an early post, if Northern haven't submitted their papers to the Court office within 6 months of the incident, then it's out of time and can't proceed (unless there was a lot more to the matter).

 

[Tetchytyke]

It really does boggle the mind how Northern can think that they have a case here.

Depends what the revenue inspector at Oxford Road said. IME the revenue people at Oxford Road and Victoria tend to be rather, erm, low-wattage shall we say?

 

[northwichcat]

Depends what the revenue inspector at Oxford Road said. IME the revenue people at Oxford Road and Victoria tend to be rather, erm, low-wattage shall we say?

Strangely while the RPIs at Piccadilly and Victoria are STM, the ones at Oxford Road and Liverpool Lime Street are Northern Rail employees. If people can't tell the difference then it doesn't do much to suporrt the RMT's claim that revenue protection should be brought completely in house!

 

[scipiiouse]

Can we be crystal clear what has been received here, please? Is it:

-a letter from a magistrates court setting out that you have been convicted and fined?

-a letter from northern rail saying you could be fined 1k if you travel without a railcard

-a first letter from Northern Rail saying they intend to commence an action against you

-a second/third letter re the above

Do be aware that some offences (I'm thinking of Fraud Act here, but others also) are not summary offences where the information must be laid within six months. Also, even for a byelaw matter, you're not out of the six months deadline yet, when court paperwork-processing delays of maybe six weeks are factored in.

I'm just saying the above for completeness, and in case the op's story is not as stated. I do not mean any slur on them.

If everything is as per the thread, then work on getting a 'no further action' from the prosecutions dept, then look to request compensation/apology etc.

Hey,

Sorry I'm a bit late replying, I've been all over the place for the last few days with uni work.

The letter is from Northern Rail stating that they intend to seek a fine of up to £1,000 from me for being in breach of ToC for not carrying a railcard.

I'm not sure about whether I'd be out of that legal action window at the moment. The letter they sent me was dated 29th July.

 

[DasLunatic]

The letter they sent me was dated 29th July.

They don't have a case. End of. You needn't worry about anything.

 

[jon0844]

This 'case' must be up there with the craziness of me being told I was committing fraud by holding two travelcards (one Z1-3 and one Z4-6) because there was nothing to bridge the gap between zones 3 and 4.

 

[Shempz]

lol, this thread is like reading a Northern Rail revenue protection version of Minority Report!

 

[neilmc]

Don't throw this letter away though!

If everything posted here is as it seems, this is a priceless opportunity to drag Northern through the media mud for attempting to extract "fines" under false pretences.

 

[Merseysider]

Don't throw this letter away though!

If everything posted here is as it seems, this is a priceless opportunity to drag Northern through the media mud for attempting to extract "fines" under false pretences.

Which might not necessarily be a good thing in the long term.

Anyway, is it definitely humans that look over the case and compose these letters, or do they have machines spinning them out at 200/minute regardless of whether there's been any offence?

 

[DaleCooper]

Anyway, is it definitely humans that look over the case and compose these letters, or do they have machines spinning them out at 200/minute regardless of whether there's been any offence?

If it is machines then it's certainly humans who are responsible for the output of those machines, they design and program the machines and provide the input. Garbage in garbage out.

 

[crehld]

This 'case' must be up there with the craziness of me being told I was committing fraud by holding two travelcards (one Z1-3 and one Z4-6) because there was nothing to bridge the gap between zones 3 and 4.

It appears the ticket you required doesn't actually exist
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lol, this thread is like reading a Northern Rail revenue protection version of Minority Report!

Northern Rail aren't that clever or technologically advanced I'm afraid.
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Which might not necessarily be a good thing in the long term.

Anyway, is it definitely humans that look over the case and compose these letters, or do they have machines spinning them out at 200/minute regardless of whether there's been any offence?

It's definitely humans based on my experience. Oddly enough I believe a machine would have been easier to reason with!
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On a more serious note to the OP...

For now just reply with a letter stating the basic facts and nothing else. Anything else (such as compensation for you inconvenience, etc) at this stage will distract you from the core of the message you wish to put across, which is that you were only collecting tickets and on the date in question no attempt to travel was made.

Once Northern have accepted the facts of the situation and confirmed they have dropped action against you can then move to extract an apology from them (although one would hope this would be automatic). I'm sceptical as to whether you'll get any compensation (I didn't), but you might also consider asking them to delete your personal details under the data protection act as, given your innocence, Northern have no need to keep them.

 

[steve a]

This 'case' must be up there with the craziness of me being told I was committing fraud by holding two travelcards (one Z1-3 and one Z4-6) because there was nothing to bridge the gap between zones 3 and 4.

Yes, I had something similar. I already had Z1-5 but was working at a different office for a couple of months. The station I had to use was in Z6 but the next station was in Z4 so I had to buy a ticket to cover Z4-6 even though I already had Z1-5!

On another occasion I got a penalty fare for using a route that was valid on NRE but included a tube leg. I was told it wasn't a permitted route as I had a "not underground" season ticket. I was also told you're not allowed to break your journey in central London if you're using a "not underground" season ticket...

 

[LAX54]

I thought that you could not buy a reduced rate ticket without presenting / showing that you hold a railcard valid for the journey, regardless of what day you buy it ?

After all for all he knew, you did not even have one, and if you were caught on the train with no card too, then the ticket office would also be in strife for selling you a ticket that you had not valid railcard for .

Just a thought, and I could be wrong !

 

[causton]

I thought that you could not buy a reduced rate ticket without presenting / showing that you hold a railcard valid for the journey, regardless of what day you buy it ?

After all for all he knew, you did not even have one, and if you were caught on the train with no card too, then the ticket office would also be in strife for selling you a ticket that you had not valid railcard for .

Just a thought, and I could be wrong !

Correct...

...however he was not buying a ticket, just picking up one he had already bought from a website! So no need to carry it surely.

 

[LAX54]

Correct...

...however he was not buying a ticket, just picking up one he had already bought from a website! So no need to carry it surely.

Surely there is still a need to veryify that he is entitled to the reduced rate fare, once the ticket is 'issued' then it's too late, IF he didnt have a railcard and did not get stopped, then the person would have been onto a winner and got a cheap ride, had he been stopped with no railcard, then the office that issued it would be disciplined too ! The T.O had not had any proof he was entitled to the ticket at the time of issue (regardless of when he was travelling)

 

[island]

Be that as it may, it is not an offence to buy or collect a discounted ticket without a railcard. Only to use it.

 

[najaB]

Surely there is still a need to veryify that he is entitled to the reduced rate fare, once the ticket is 'issued' then it's too late...

And if he had gone to a TVM, how would it have verified his entitlement? Possession of railcard discounted ticket without a railcard isn't an offence, the use of it is.

 

[causton]

Surely there is still a need to veryify that he is entitled to the reduced rate fare, once the ticket is 'issued' then it's too late, IF he didnt have a railcard and did not get stopped, then the person would have been onto a winner and got a cheap ride, had he been stopped with no railcard, then the office that issued it would be disciplined too ! The T.O had not had any proof he was entitled to the ticket at the time of issue (regardless of when he was travelling)

If they really wanted to do they could pick it up from the machine then...

Can't see how we would be disciplined for a ticket in the ticket office that is merely issued by us on behalf of the website, not actually by us. It's not as if we can change what is issued and you only find out the railcard discount is on it when it is printed, and what should we do then? Hold the ticket to ransom and make the customer come back (what if they don't live nearby? A lot of people come to my ticket office who normally live in a different part of the country, or a different country altogether!) we can't non-issue the ticket and return it to the website!

 

[lyesbkz]

Surely there is still a need to veryify that he is entitled to the reduced rate fare

Maybe, but then a slightly more sensible response would be to refuse to issue the tickets at the time and ask the customer to return with their railcard, rather than taking details with a view to prosecution. Although I still don't think that is a good idea. Sometimes people purchase and collect tickets for others.

 

[ainsworth74]

The OP has the answer to their question. Write back to Northern and explain what actually happened. Hopefully that will be the end of the matter. If it is not or the the OP wishes to provide some other information or an update please feel free to contact a member of the Forum Staff to have this thread re-opened. In the meantime this thread is locked.