Northern Rail Issue

[brettmancheste]

Hello,

I was wondering whether you would be able you help with me an issue i have at the moment as it is causing me alot of stress.

I traveled on a train from Eccles (Manchester) to Manchester Victoria in May 2013, when i got to the station there was no ticket machine and no counter open, i boarded the train without a ticket and there was no conductor which then meant i had no way of buying a ticket. Once i got off the train i walked up the platform and out of the station, at the time there was no ticket machines or counter to pass i understand they are now in the middle of renovating the station and this may have changed, at the exit i was stopped by an inspector and was asked for my ticket, i explained to the staff member that i hadn't been given an opportunity to buy a ticket and there wasn't a machine or counter this way out of the station to do so, i also took time to show the staff member tickets that i had previously bought from the office and explained i am far from a fare dodger, i regular spend a fortune travelling to the south coast and paying tickets, i then offered to pay the £2.30 fare to the agent which he refused.

He explained to me that i would be sent a letter and fine in the post and i could appeal, i received the letter after some time and appealed and explained that i didn't think it was right i was having to pay a fine when i offered at the time to buy a ticket and also when i was given no opportunity o buy a ticket, in the letter i also gave my new address as i was moving and explained that they would need to contact me should i they need to discuss anything further.

This was 2013, since then i moved and in July 2014 i moved again and hadn't heard anything from Northern Rail.

Today 12/09/2014 i received a letter to my new address as i have moved again, from a company explaining i have to pay £800+ and telling me that if i don't pay i will get items taken from me, i rang the number and they have put me in touch with Bolton Court to which i am now invited to swear on oath that i haven't seen or know about any of the summons against me.

If they would have contacted me telling me that my appeal has failed i would have just paid the fine.

They have advised me that it will be the case that Northern Rail will start the proceedings again.

This whole ordeal is now a nightmare i wonder if you could be any assistance at all?

 

[6Gman]

As I understand it, if you genuinely didn't receive any correspondence, then you can make a Statutory Declaration to that effect.

It doesn't make the issue go away - it simply restarts the process, but should account for the legal costs/ bailiff costs etc.

I have some sympathy for such issues arising at Manchester Victoria - the layout of the station does make it relatively easy to exit [quite innocently] without passing an opportunity to pay.

 

[Swirlz]

So you were unable to pay for your fare at your origin - fine.

At Manchester Victoria, you had a legal responsibility to pay your fare at that location. Instead, you took an exit out of the station that would have prevented you from doing that, so subsequently you attempted to avoid paying the fare, as you certainly haven't headed to the ticket office, self service machines or station staff.

What has happened is that you have been convicted, and fined in your absence. Presumably you have moved house, or you gave Northern Rail an old, or incorrect address.

If you genuinely did not know that court proceedings had begun, and you perhaps have evidence to support that, like a new tenancy agreement etc, you should make a statutory declaration at court, but Northern will still prosecute you for the original offence of "intending to avoid payment of a rail fare", which I can't really see how you can avoid conviction on anyway.

£800 is quite high, but includes your fine, prosecution costs, compensation for the fare due, victim surcharge and other fees related to collection.

If you had plead guilty, and paid immediately, you'll probably have to pay around £600.

If £200 isn't that important to you, I'd just arrange to pay the £800 and accept your criminal conviction, otherwise you're going to have to go to court a few more times, go through a trial, probably just to be convicted again.

 

[brettmancheste]

Hello,

Many thanks for your reply.

Yes when i contacted Northern Rail to appeal i gave them my new address and i heard nothing, i have since moved again but i have a copy of an agreement that sows i moved into my new address.

I have arranged to visit the courts next week to do this deceleration and will take copies of the agreement with me.

If my appeal doesn't work i am more then happy to pay the fine but im not willing to pay £800+ plus.

I do understand the situation at Victoria but the fact that i took the exit that was nearest to my work and i was already late was the best option, the thing that annoys me the most is there was no presence of staff on the train selling tickets, i think i will also present them with bank statements to prove that i do pay the ticket charge on a daily basis.

I will keep you all updated

 

[SussexMan]

...I also gave my new address as i was moving and explained that they would need to contact me should i they need to discuss anything further.

...or you gave Northern Rail an old, or incorrect address.

Why are you suggesting that the OP gave an old or incorrect address? The OP has clearly explained that they gave NR their new address so it suggests that NR have failed to use the correct address which they were given.

brettmancheste: Did you see the member of staff write your new address down?

 

[brettmancheste]

Why are you suggesting that the OP gave an old or incorrect address? The OP has clearly explained that they gave NR their new address so it suggests that NR have failed to use the correct address which they were given.

brettmancheste: Did you see the member of staff write your new address down?

What happened is i told the member of staff i was moving soon and gave my old address, they sent me through the fine and when i wrote back to them and appealed i explained that i was moving and provided my new address and no one contacted me again.

When i spoke to the courts they still had my old address down so Northern Rail hadn't bothered to either change it or they didnt get my appeal.

 

[Puffing Devil]

So you were unable to pay for your fare at your origin - fine.

At Manchester Victoria, you had a legal responsibility to pay your fare at that location. Instead, you took an exit out of the station that would have prevented you from doing that, so subsequently you attempted to avoid paying the fare, as you certainly haven't headed to the ticket office, self service machines or station staff.

What has happened is that you have been convicted, and fined in your absence. Presumably you have moved house, or you gave Northern Rail an old, or incorrect address.

If you genuinely did not know that court proceedings had begun, and you perhaps have evidence to support that, like a new tenancy agreement etc, you should make a statutory declaration at court, but Northern will still prosecute you for the original offence of "intending to avoid payment of a rail fare", which I can't really see how you can avoid conviction on anyway.

£800 is quite high, but includes your fine, prosecution costs, compensation for the fare due, victim surcharge and other fees related to collection.

If you had plead guilty, and paid immediately, you'll probably have to pay around £600.

If £200 isn't that important to you, I'd just arrange to pay the £800 and accept your criminal conviction, otherwise you're going to have to go to court a few more times, go through a trial, probably just to be convicted again.

That is some of the worst advice I've even seen on here. I have no idea where you got your figures from.

The only element I can agree with is that the OP is bang to rights as they attempted to leave Victoria without paying. By doing that, they are guilty of an offence.

OP: If you truly have not heard a thing about this matter, then you need to swear the Statutory Declaration ASAP at your closest Magistrates Court. Take your paperwork in and explain the situation to the usher and that you need to make a Declaration. The clock is running on the time you have to do this once you become aware of the matter.

The prosecution will then be reset to the pre-summons stage. You will most likely be summonsed again for the offence. In that case you will be looking at a Band A fine, which is 50% of your weekly income, less 1/3 for pleading guilty at the first opportunity. You will then also need to pay prosecution costs - expect about £85. There is also the "Victim Surcharge" of 20% of the fine imposed, min £20 pounds. You should be able to plead guilty by post and submit you income on the standard "means form". Copy all correspondence to the court and get a certificate of posting, as a minimum.

Unless you take home more than £1800/week, it's unlikely you'll get close to £800.......

 

[Swirlz]

That is some of the worst advice I've even seen on here. I have no idea where you got your figures from.

The only element I can agree with is that the OP is bang to rights as they attempted to leave Victoria without paying. By doing that, they are guilty of an offence.

OP: If you truly have not heard a thing about this matter, then you need to swear the Statutory Declaration ASAP at your closest Magistrates Court. Take your paperwork in and explain the situation to the usher and that you need to make a Declaration. The clock is running on the time you have to do this once you become aware of the matter.

The prosecution will then be reset to the pre-summons stage. You will most likely be summonsed again for the offence. In that case you will be looking at a Band A fine, which is 50% of your weekly income, less 1/3 for pleading guilty at the first opportunity. You will then also need to pay prosecution costs - expect about £85. There is also the "Victim Surcharge" of 20% of the fine imposed, min £20 pounds. You should be able to plead guilty by post and submit you income on the standard "means form". Copy all correspondence to the court and get a certificate of posting, as a minimum.

Unless you take home more than £1800/week, it's unlikely you'll get close to £800.......

Hahaha, you're having a laugh!

You think a Magistrate Court is going to fine someone just £85 for intentionally avoiding a fare?

You are living in some sort of mystical land!

A fine is going to be at least £200, regardless of income!

 

[Squaddie]

When i spoke to the courts they still had my old address down so Northern Rail hadn't bothered to either change it or they didnt get my appeal.

Are you saying that you didn't send the appeal by recorded delivery or check that it had been received? If so, how will you prove that you appealed within the necessary timeframe?

 

[jkdd77]

Are you saying that you didn't send the appeal by recorded delivery or check that it had been received? If so, how will you prove that you appealed within the necessary timeframe?

As far as making a statutory declaration is concerned, the question of whether the OP "appealed" to Northern Rail is irrelevant- the court will be interested only in whether the OP received any court documents, or was otherwise previously aware of the proceedings.

Assuming the OP is being entirely truthful, I would recommend making a statutory declaration; on the basis that:
1) following such a declaration, and 'resetting' of the criminal proceedings, it might be possible to negotiate a settlement with NR, avoiding a criminal record, and;
2) the fine imposed after a subsequent guilty plea would likely be lower than that currently levied, particularly if the OP has a low income.

 

[najaB]

Hahaha, you're having a laugh!

You think a Magistrate Court is going to fine someone just £85 for intentionally avoiding a fare?

You are living in some sort of mystical land!

A fine is going to be at least £200, regardless of income!

I believe you have misread Puffing Devil's post. He said that the fine would likely be 50% of weekly income (less 1/3 for pleading guilty), plus 20% for the victim surcharge, plus approximately £85 for fees.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Hahaha, you're having a laugh!

You think a Magistrate Court is going to fine someone just . . . . .

I can confirm that Puffing Devil's assessment is about as close as anyone can guess based on what we know. And that I am aware that Puffing Devil is in a position to make an accurate assessment.

I will though repeat a word of caution to brettmancheste before making the Statutory Declaration, and that is to make sure that (s)he is absolutely certain that no correspondence was received in respect of the investigation and subsequent prosecution. To make such a statement falsely or even misleadingly, carries the risk of severe penalties.
I say this only because some of us have a tendency to put unwanted mail to one side and treat it as if it hasn't been received. That response is not the same as not receiving the correspondence.

 

[reb0118]

In that case you will be looking at a Band A fine, which is 50% of your weekly income,........

Can I ask the question: is it 50% of the defendant's income or 50% of the average income?

I have seen both implied on this forum.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Can I ask the question: is it 50% of the defendant's income or 50% of the average income?

I have seen both implied on this forum.

That depends if you submit a "means form", which describes your income, or not.......

Fines are based on your weekly income. If you do not attend court or fail to submit a plea and means form by post, the court will normally assume that you have an income of £400/week. This is the current "average" income used by the court.

In the other thread where a paper reports on cases where you see a penalty of £600, this will be made up of:

Band B Fine of 100% of £400 = £400
Victim Surcharge 10% of £400 = £40
Prosecution Costs £160 (Amount requested by TOC Prosecutor)

Total = £600

Most rail matters attract a Band A fine, which is 50% of actual income.

You do yourself a lot of good by attending court/or pleading guilty by letter (if you are guilty!).

If you earn £300/week take home, plead guilty at the first opportunity and complete the means form, and the bench assesses the offence falls into Band A, the total payable would be:

Band A Fine = 50% of £300 = £150
Less 1/3 for Early Guilty Plea = £150- £50 = £100
Victim Surcharge 10% of £100 = £10 (Minimum is £20), so £20
Prosecution Costs = £160

-> £100 Fine + £20 Surcharge + £160 Costs = £280

A couple of additional points:

• If you wholly reliant on benefits, your income is deemed to be £110 - this is the minimum on which fines will be based
• Compensation for the unpaid fare may also be ordered
• If you're caught speeding in a Rolls and claim an income of £50/week, the court may make assumptions about your real income

Finally, I quoted £85 costs as the likely sum due in my first post in this thread - that was based on my recent experience of CPS fees for first appearances. It appears that the TOCs are seeking more - in the region of £160 seems to be the norm. The award of of costs is at the discretion of the court, though many benches will nod through the amount requested, unless challenged.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . .costs . . . . It appears that the TOCs are seeking more - in the region of £160 seems to be the norm.

Some have routinely been seeking over £200, while elsewhere, simple matters have been costed at under £100.

The award of of costs is at the discretion of the court, though many benches will nod through the amount requested, unless challenged.

Indeed, they have been refused following an appropriate challenge. Prehaps most predictably, they have been refused following a Byelaw prosecution where the prosecution's Evidence disregarded the Defence objection to the circumstances on pragmatic grounds which highlighted failures by the Prosecution and/or their client, and failed to demonstrate any mens rea.

 

[reb0118]

Thank you.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Thank you.

My pleasure - though I see you're in Scotland. Please note my comments extend only to the English and Welsh Magistrate's Courts. I cannot comment on the guidelines used in Scotland as I have no direct experience of the Sheriff or JP Courts there.