Northern Rail: our trains will get even busier but we can't do anything about it

[northwichcat]

Important changes to services to and from Manchester via Bolton from 8 December 2013

TransPennine Express is re-routing some of it’s services via Wigan instead of Bolton. Northern Rail services will run as normal, but some morning and evening peak trains via Bolton may be busier than normal.


Why are First TransPennine Express services changing?

In July 2013, as part of Network Rail’s North West Electrification programme, work took place to electrify the line between Manchester and the West Coast Mainline to improve the infrastructure and reduce journey times.

From 8 December First TransPennine Express services between Manchester and Scotland will run via Wigan instead of Bolton, to take advantage of the newly electrified line. This means that there will be fewer First TransPennine Express services calling at Bolton and Chorley.

We have looked at all possibilities to acquire extra carriages to minimise the impact on services; however, there are no suitable diesel trains available and our current fleet is already used to maximum capacity.

We will continue to monitor changes in passenger numbers.

I'm not sure why they've added the last sentence given they've admitted there are no diesel trains available.

 

[AndrewP]

I'm not sure why they've added the last sentence given they've admitted there are no diesel trains available.

It provides good information to lobby the DfT or provide a business case based on income for gaining them from other sources (i.e. stuff that is about but needs work to be useable)

 

[northwichcat]

It provides good information to lobby the DfT or provide a business case based on income for gaining them from other sources (i.e. stuff that is about but needs work to be useable)

But they don't say that and average Joe wouldn't know that so it could look like a bit of stupid comment to them. Most of the Northern services through Bolton are monitored anyway because they are services which TfGM sponsor to strengthen and TfGM require Northern to keep passenger counts and records of when the booked traction isn't used e.g. if a 142+150 is used on a service that should be 2 x 150s.

 

[Wolfie]

I'm not sure why they've added the last sentence given they've admitted there are no diesel trains available.

err, perhaps acquisition of EMUs and then redeployment of existing DMUs which are currently running under the wires?

 

[Eagle]

Such as the six 319s that they will be acquiring in December 2014 or shortly after.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It provides good information to lobby the DfT or provide a business case based on income for gaining them from other sources (i.e. stuff that is about but needs work to be usable)

Will the current problem that Northern Rail seem to be experiencing over the last-announced franchise extension have anything to do with this matter, in the same way that they have stock-resourcing problems to provide rolling stock for the Spring 2014 start to the new service using the Copy Pit line from Blackburn to Manchester ?

 

[Eagle]

Will the current problem that Northern Rail seem to be experiencing over the last-announced franchise extension have anything to do with this matter, in the same way that they have stock-resourcing problems to provide rolling stock for the Spring 2014 start to the new service using the Copy Pit line from Blackburn to Manchester ?

Yes, it's all part of the same problem.

 

[Wolfie]

Such as the six 319s that they will be acquiring in December 2014 or shortly after.

I wa sthinking of something happening sooner if there are obvious problems eg DfT might cough for the 317s which were being linked with Northern...

 

[northwichcat]

I wa sthinking of something happening sooner if there are obvious problems eg DfT might cough for the 317s which were being linked with Northern...

I think it's actually too late for that now. While Northern could utilise a couple more EMUs to free up DMUs it will need diagramming/timetabling revisions, such as Hazel Grove-Manchester services not being part of the same diagram as Mid-Cheshire or Buxton services, then crew training will need to be allowed for. It'll need to be a sublease of DMUs already in the Northern fleet.

 

[Eagle]

I wa sthinking of something happening sooner if there are obvious problems eg DfT might cough for the 317s which were being linked with Northern...

317s would probably not be ready in time. They're in cold storage in Eastleigh and apparently not in particularly good condition.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There's the small matter of TPE having "spare" 185s from May 2014.
We know some of them are going to the new Liverpool-Newcastle service, but that still leaves some for strengthening elsewhere.
I'm not clear if TPE has actually said which services will be strengthened.
It's a balance of priorities of course, but why can't they be used initially to solve the Northern capacity problems created by TPE rerouting the Scotland trains?

 

[northwichcat]

I'm not clear if TPE has actually said which services will be strengthened.

According to a reliability informed poster on here. South TPE is to get 2 x 4 car 170 diagrams and Manchester to Hull is to get a 4 car 170 diagram. They'll also be a single 170 diagram on Hull services but 3 x 185s will need to be utilised on what are currently 170 diagrams. They'll also be some 8 car Scottish workings on summer weekends meaning some 185s will be needed on weekend Scottish services as the 350/4s won't stretch far enough.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Good to know that despite the chronic shortage of stock Northern are suffering the Dft have just decided to make it worse on one of their busiest corridors. I really really think the Dft should be funding a DRS loco hauled rake somewhere to get some extra DMUs to Manchester. Firstly to help with Bolton secondly to get the Todmorden curve going.

Yeah we don't have loads of money but i see the Bolton corridor losing a lot of patronage.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

.
I'm not clear if TPE has actually said which services will be strengthened. It's a balance of priorities of course, but why can't they be used initially to solve the Northern capacity problems created by TPE rerouting the Scotland trains?

Have there even been any previous rolling stock co-operation between First TPE and Northern Rail before that could be used as a precedent for this idea ?

I am sure that keeping the Class 185 fleet in-house will ensure that First TPE can improve their own service provision.

 

[yorksrob]

Other operators have topped and tailed Mk2's and Mk3's before.

No excuse for the same not being done here I'm afraid, at least until cascaded stock becomes available.

Department of Transport needs to get it's finger out, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Eagle]

There is an excuse, and it's a financial one.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm not buying it.

The rerouting of TPE is part of the Department of Transport grand masterplan, so they've no business leaving Bolton line passengers in the lurch.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I'm not buying it.

The rerouting of TPE is part of the Department of Transport grand masterplan, so they've no business leaving Bolton line passengers in the lurch.

Exactly, and it is them and not Northern who should have to plug the gap. Northern literally have all their limbs tied to a wind turbine.

Someone on twitter has told Northern they would not get away with short trains in the South of England.

 

[Drsatan]

Someone on twitter has told Northern they would not get away with short trains in the South of England.

Having said that, FGW does have an issue with running 150s on inappropriately long services, like the 0828 Bristol Temple Meads to Penzance (Sundays only). It's not only the North that has an issue with short-formed trains.

Incidentally, where would other forum members suggest which route on the Northern network would this hypothetical LHCS rake be used?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Having said that, FGW does have an issue with running 150s on inappropriately long services, like the 0828 Bristol Temple Meads to Penzance (Sundays only). It's not only the North that has an issue with short-formed trains.

Incidentally, where would other forum members suggest which route on the Northern network would this hypothetical LHCS rake be used?

Yep i think the SW is just as hard done by.

Settle to Carlisle on a double 158 diagram. Would by mine as that is four carriages released allowing a 4 car diagram on Bolton corridor in old FTPE path. Not necessarily 158 as i am not sure the crews sign them but 150/156 certainly. If we could afford a second one, then probably the Cumbrian coast, ala the recent proposals. Can get a two car DMU out from there. That should give us the slack we require so desperately.

 

[TheWalrus]

I think it would make sense to merge Northern and FTPX. Then units could be pooled between the two lots of services so FTPX don't have a load of 185s which can only be used on Pennines routes.

 

[yorksrob]

Exactly, and it is them and not Northern who should have to plug the gap. Northern literally have all their limbs tied to a wind turbine.

Indeed. It's astonishing that they haven't made a contingency for this.

 

[Drsatan]

I think a short-term solution would be for Northern to erect a sign at each of their stations reading "It's not always our fault your train is overcrowded. We just don't have any extra trains".

Unfortunately, such a sign would require lots of explanatory text underneath explaining how this has happened i.e. the franchise was let on a 'No Growth' basis with no provision for extra trains and Northern won't be getting any new trains until 2014 and no, we can't ring a manufacturer and say "excuse me, we'd like 20 new DMUs for delivery tomorrow!".

Communicating this to the average passenger would be quite difficult!

 

[Moonshot]

Maybe an alternative would be for First Group to launch an express limited stop bus service between Bolton an Manchester?

 

[Eagle]

Which then leads us to a very similar question: do they have enough spare buses to do that?

 

[Moonshot]

Ive no idea....but I would have thought an off the peg bus was far easier to purchase than a diesel unit, and of course capital cost of a bus funded privately !!

 

[D1009]

Can anyone explain to me why FGW is able to hire units from SWT, yet it appears impossible for similar arrangements to happen with Northern and other TOCs with spare rolling stock that may come available in the future?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Can anyone explain to me why FGW is able to hire units from SWT, yet it appears impossible for similar arrangements to happen with Northern and other TOCs with spare rolling stock that may come available in the future?

They have in the past but they have to be available. I went on a SWT 158 last year with Northern.

 

[Eagle]

Can anyone explain to me why FGW is able to hire units from SWT, yet it appears impossible for similar arrangements to happen with Northern and other TOCs with spare rolling stock that may come available in the future?

With FGW hiring from SWT, you have the convenience that the SWT depot (Salisbury) is on one of FGW's routes, and that the stock available to hire (158) is of a type that FGW already use on that route.

I can't think of anything as convenient for Northern.

 

[YorkshireBear]

With FGW hiring from SWT, you have the convenience that the SWT depot (Salisbury) is on one of FGW's routes, and that the stock available to hire (158) is of a type that FGW already use on that route.

I can't think of anything as convenient for Northern.

See above, they did have an extended loan last year though! Or it might have been the year before.