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Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

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Greybeard33

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TimSYoung40145 said:
Currently, unless I'm mistaken, Blackpool North to Manchester Airport services are either 2x156 or a hired in FTPE 185. Do any 158s work these diagrams?

What units normally work the Blackpool North to Hazel Grove services?

Would 175s only work those diagrams allocated 158s or could we see 156s being replaced by 175s?

Except for those 175s allocated to FTPE, surely there are some destinations under the current Arriva Northern franchise that haven't seen a Class 175 unit since the former First North Western franchise?
Click to expand...

Northern 158s do not currently work any Manchester Airport diagrams.

Blackpool North to Hazel Grove services are worked by 142s, 150s and 156s, in both single and double "mix and match" formations.
 
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northwichcat

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Philip said:
Latest I've heard (off ATW traincrew) is that Northern will be getting some 175s with 158s going the other way. Apparently the 175s are really being hammered with the routes they're operating on and just aren't suitable for frequent big stops from 90mph to slow down for the many calls on the Marches route..and this is partly why they've been suffering from corrosion recently. Anyway, the rumour is that initially 3 175s will be going to Northern to be going on with..and 158s going the other way.
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What are the suggested timescales for this? The only way I can see that working pre-December 2017 (when the Northern Connect services to Chester start) is if they are used on Mid-Cheshire line services (possibly worked by ATW crews who already sign the route) and the released 142s and 150s are put on to Calder Valley services to release 158s.

Post-December 2017 they could be used on 3 diagrams between Chester and Leeds, which would have otherwise likely got 158s until the 195s are delivered. However, 175s would have be cleared for Calder Valley and Northern crews would have to be trained on them.
 
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Philip

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jcollins said:
What are the suggested timescales for this? The only way I can see that working pre-December 2017 (when the Northern Connect services to Chester start) is if they are used on Mid-Cheshire line services (possibly worked by ATW crews who already sign the route) and the released 142s and 150s are put on to Calder Valley services to release 158s.

Post-December 2017 they could be used on 3 diagrams between Chester and Leeds, which would have otherwise likely got 158s until the 195s are delivered. However, 175s would have be cleared for Calder Valley and Northern crews would have to be trained on them.
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I didn't hear any specific details about time, it was a Crewe based guard I heard it off. But the way he was talking it sounded like they want it to happen soon. I suspect they may want to take the 175s that are suffering the problems away from the intensive diagrams they're currently working to and put them on 'lighter duties' (that's the way I heard it anyway). So Manchester-Blackpool would fit the bill as far as that's concerned. Also no route clearance would be needed.
 
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I can't think of a reason why 175s on Northern services will take any less of a "hammering" than on their ATW diagrams.
Manchester/Cardiff/Holyhead routes have quite widely-spaced stations and are mainly 75/90mph routes where 175s can cruise.
They don't do Valleys routes generally, or stop frequently.
If anything, Northern routes will be more stop-start.

This might be an Arriva plan, but they can't just switch stock around without DfT or WG say-so.
There's also the small point of ETCS fitment for the Cambrian, which applies to all ATW 158s (and which are maintained at Machynlleth).
That does not come cheap.
 
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Philip

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LNW-GW Joint said:
I can't think of a reason why 175s on Northern services will take any less of a "hammering" than on their ATW diagrams.
Manchester/Cardiff/Holyhead routes have quite widely-spaced stations and are mainly 75/90mph routes where 175s can cruise.
They don't do Valleys routes generally, or stop frequently.
If anything, Northern routes will be more stop-start.

This might be an Arriva plan, but they can't just switch stock around without DfT or WG say-so.
There's also the small point of ETCS fitment for the Cambrian, which applies to all ATW 158s (and which are maintained at Machynlleth).
That does not come cheap.
Click to expand...

I thought he may have been mixing up 175s with 195s initially but he seemed pretty clear...and definitely mentioned they were getting hammered on the Marches and mentioned the corrosion which we already know about. That's the most I know on that bit.

Perhaps if this is true then ATW will base these 158s at Chester and diagram them only for turns which start and end the day at Chester...doesn't the first Milford Haven train from Crewe eventually end up back at Chester at the end of the days working? Northern did this when they loaned a 150 from ATW a few years ago.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

LNW-GW Joint

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Philip said:
I thought he may have been mixing up 175s with 195s initially but he seemed pretty clear...and definitely mentioned they were getting hammered on the Marches and mentioned the corrosion which we already know about. That's the most I know on that bit.

Perhaps if this is true then ATW will base these 158s at Chester and diagram them only for turns which start and end the day at Chester...doesn't the first Milford Haven train from Crewe eventually end up back at Chester at the end of the days working? Northern did this when they loaned a 150 from ATW a few years ago.
Click to expand...

Another point is that Northern's 158s are not refurbished to ATW's standards.
ATW has few things going for it, but the 158 refurb is one of them.
Also, I don't think Northern's 158s are maintained west of the Pennines (Neville Hill, is it?).
Similarly ATW's 158s are all maintained at Machynlleth, not even at Cardiff or Crewe.
Chester is an Alstom depot specifically for the 175s.
Doesn't add up for me, until new trains start arriving to free things up a bit.
Chester-Leeds Northern Connect 175s I can believe pending arrival of 195s, with suitable upgrade of 158s going the other way.
 
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Perhaps it's an Arriva idea as you say, rather than anything set in stone. Given Northern and Alphaline now have the same parent company, would this make switching stock around any easier than if they were completely separate?

I'm sure a temporary facility for a foreign small fleet of 158s at Crewe can be put up, if necessary.

I've read that 175s are banned on eastern routes, because they're too wide for some of the platforms? Beyond Stalybridge anyway, possibly Calder Valley too. There were quite a few platforms shaved in 2000 to accommodate the units when they entered service.
 
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northwichcat

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LNW-GW Joint said:
Chester is an Alstom depot specifically for the 175s.
...
Also, I don't think Northern's 158s are maintained west of the Pennines (Neville Hill, is it?).
Click to expand...

Yes all the Northern 158s are based at Neville Hill - they don't even appear on former FNW services currently.

Philip said:
I've read that 175s are banned on eastern routes, because they're too wide for some of the platforms? Beyond Stalybridge anyway, possibly Calder Valley too. There were quite a few platforms shaved in 2000 to accommodate the units when they entered service.
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I think it was a clearance issue with the step and certain platforms. Certainly they are cleared for Manchester Airport to Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere as well as Salford-Victoria and the Mid-Cheshire line but I don't think we can say clearance for other lines will just be a case of a test run and doing the paperwork. Did they ever get to Stalybridge under FNW?
 
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notlob.divad

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DJH1971 said:
Meanwhile, another 319 shortage.

Today's 07:38 MCV to LIV service is a 2 car 156.
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There has been some unusual diagrams all weekend. Lime Streets North shed on Saturday was full of Sprinters and Pacers for some reason. I don't know if there have been weekend engineering works involving turning the power off to a section of the OHLE which may explain it.
 
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notlob.divad said:
There has been some unusual diagrams all weekend. Lime Streets North shed on Saturday was full of Sprinters and Pacers for some reason. I don't know if there have been weekend engineering works involving turning the power off to a section of the OHLE which may explain it.
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I know that East Midlands were going via Newton Le Willows on Sunday at least. I wanted to get to South Parkway and thence to JLA to see the Typhoon take off for its display at Southport. I was much dismayed when I discovered I was heading for Newton. Ha ha. My own fault, I never checked when I hopped on the EMT service at Platform 1 which should have given the game away.
 
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A article in RAIL magazine 809 page 26
TITLE
Locomotive hauled trains to prevent GWR shortfall
.
Up to three locomotive hauled trains will enter traffic with GWR next May running between Cardiff and Taunton. They will be used to replace 150 and 153 DMU's sent North for use by Northern in time for the May timetable.

We know about 150 dmu's but does anybody know about 153's.
Best guess short term lease as not required long term.
Anybody Know how many ???????
 
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1179_Clee2 said:
A article in RAIL magazine 809 page 26
TITLE
Locomotive hauled trains to prevent GWR shortfall
.
Up to three locomotive hauled trains will enter traffic with GWR next May running between Cardiff and Taunton. They will be used to replace 150 and 153 DMU's sent North for use by Northern in time for the May timetable.

We know about 150 dmu's but does anybody know about 153's.
Best guess short term lease as not required long term.
Anybody Know how many ???????
Click to expand...


Hope Mods don't mind me pointing this out, but just a reminder in case this thread drifts on to GWR LHCS, that there is a thread here:-


www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=135418

Mind you, even if you seen it in Rail Magazine, I'm still not going to believe anything thing that's said to be happening following cascading, until it's all cut and dried. GWR should be retaining their 5 Porterbrook 153s.
 
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The former TPE depots at Blackpool and Barrow have just signed 153s (to go with 156s and 185s). The thinking behind it is the Barrow line can't really accommodate 2*156s at a few stations, but a 156+153 would be more suitable. Plus, I understand, they want 153s with 156s on the Windermere branch as a single 156 is not a suitable replacement for a 185.

Whether this has caused increased demand for 153s on the West side of Northern I don't know?
 
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sd0733

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Just passed 2x 319s which were heading north on the fast line through Stafford. Rear one was 319218. Not sure on the front but both were in GtR livery complete with Thameslink logo.
 
KendalKing

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TBSchenker said:
The former TPE depots at Blackpool and Barrow have just signed 153s (to go with 156s and 185s). The thinking behind it is the Barrow line can't really accommodate 2*156s at a few stations, but a 156+153 would be more suitable. Plus, I understand, they want 153s with 156s on the Windermere branch as a single 156 is not a suitable replacement for a 185.

Whether this has caused increased demand for 153s on the West side of Northern I don't know?
Click to expand...

As a regular traveller on the Furness Line, I can assure you it not much fun travelling on a single car 153, compare to an 3-car 185.

I for one, wish that TPE was still operating on the Furness Line......
 
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KendalKing said:
As a regular traveller on the Furness Line, I can assure you it not much fun travelling on a single car 153, compare to an 3-car 185.

I for one, wish that TPE was still operating on the Furness Line......
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Although TPE 185s (sub-leased to Northern), crewed by ex-TPE staff (transferred to Northern), still work (M-F) six services daily each way on the Furness line. And, it seems, will continue to do so until December 2017.
 
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northwichcat

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DJH1971 said:
No livery change as of yet it seems.
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Someone has reported on another forum they won't be put in service by Northern but will be stripped of useful parts to hopefully help improve the reliability of other 319s. I don't know if that means the plan is to scrap some 319s after removing useful parts.
 
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