Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[LNW-GW Joint]

Are any of them physically located at Allerton yet?

When I went passed last week I could only see a couple of units from the original batch of 319s that have been in service for a while now.

2x "GTR Thameslink" branded 319s were at Allerton when I went past last Monday.

 

[Bovverboy]

At peak times it's sometimes not the level of service doesn't match patronage it's a case of services are poorly timed due to pathing constraints and a rammed train is followed by another which is lightly loaded, while if the rammed service was 10 minutes earlier the loadings would be much better on both trains.

There certainly aren't any 'rammed' trains on the Deansgate-Bolton-Victoria circuit at the time of day we're talking.

 

[childwallblues]

Are any of them physically located at Allerton yet?

319218 and 319219.

 

[pemma]

There certainly aren't any 'rammed' trains on the Deansgate-Bolton-Victoria circuit at the time of day we're talking.

What about Stockport to Oxford Road? Pathing constraints also affect where trains can terminate. If the Crewe train didn't run through to Bolton there would need to be an ECS to Bolton so that there was something to work the 09:30 Bolton to Blackburn via Todmorden.

 

[Bovverboy]

Originally Posted by Bovverboy
There certainly aren't any 'rammed' trains on the Deansgate-Bolton-Victoria circuit at the time of day we're talking.

Originally Posted by jcollins
What about Stockport to Oxford Road?

Stockport to Oxford Road isn't on the Deansgate-Bolton-Victoria circuit.

Pathing constraints also affect where trains can terminate.

I can't see any particular impediment to EMUs terminating at Trafford Park East Junction (ECS from Deansgate, of course). Five EMUs per week terminate there as it is.

If the Crewe train didn't run through to Bolton there would need to be an ECS to Bolton so that there was something to work the 09:30 Bolton to Blackburn via Todmorden.

I did make the point earlier that the 0930 from Bolton doesn't serve any purpose as far as Victoria - it's timed only four minutes behind the 0821 Blackpool North to Huddersfield (which has an identical stopping pattern Bolton-Victoria).

I've assumed that the second of the above quotes was intended as a response to the first. The 0722 ex-Crewe could have gone electric ages ago, I travelled on it recently from Picc to Salf Cres and there were hardly any passengers left on board after Deansgate. The most minor of timetable changes could create a realistic connection from Picc/Oxford Road to Crescent and Bolton - there are at least two trains available to provide one - and the return working of the 0722 (0930 ex-Bolton) doesn't really serve any purpose at all until Manchester Victoria.

 

[pemma]

Stockport to Oxford Road isn't on the Deansgate-Bolton-Victoria circuit.

That's the point I'm making there are very busy trains between Stockport and Oxford Road.

I can't see any particular impediment to EMUs terminating at Trafford Park East Junction (ECS from Deansgate, of course). Five EMUs per week terminate there as it is.

I did make the point earlier that the 0930 from Bolton doesn't serve any purpose as far as Victoria - it's timed only four minutes behind the 0821 Blackpool North to Huddersfield (which has an identical stopping pattern Bolton-Victoria).

And I previously made the point some Northern services are poorly timed or start/terminate in unusual places due to pathing constraints. There may not be a path to shunt around an EMU at Trafford Park at that time or it may be a path wouldn't be available for an ECS to Longsight/Stockport from Trafford Park. Until there's a 100% electrified network some ideas for replacing DMU services with EMU services aren't workable in the real world. Arriva looked at various options for releasing DMUs as a result of filling the void left by the TPE 170s going to Chiltern and decided to keep the Crewe-Bolton service as it was and changed other services ahead of it so it's obviously not the 'no brainier' you think it is.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I did make the point earlier that the 0930 from Bolton doesn't serve any purpose as far as Victoria - it's timed only four minutes behind the 0821 Blackpool North to Huddersfield (which has an identical stopping pattern Bolton-Victoria).

Does it not form part of TfGM's master plan by providing a through service between Bolton and Rochdale?

 

[Bovverboy]

Originally Posted by Bovverboy
I can't see any particular impediment to EMUs terminating at Trafford Park East Junction (ECS from Deansgate, of course). Five EMUs per week terminate there as it is.

There may not be a path to shunt around an EMU at Trafford Park at that time

It's hard to imagine an easier place to reverse an EMU at 08xx M/F than Trafford Park East Junction (other than termini, of course). The EMU can enter the reversing siding without conflicting with any other train movements, and once there it can stay until c.1600 before the siding is needed for any other reversal. Not that there would be any need for the EMU to remain there anyway, Trafford Park East Junction to Castlefield Junction isn't a busy stretch of line (five trains per hour each way, on average) and there is a particular lull just after the hour with no trains scheduled to pass between xx00 and xx16. That's abundant time to get the EMU across the westbound line and on to the eastbound.

or it may be a path wouldn't be available for an ECS to Longsight/Stockport from Trafford Park.

Perhaps we could first of all consider the pathing requirement between Trafford Park East Junction and Piccadilly. As I've said above, Trafford Park East Junction to Castlefield Junction isn't a busy stretch of line, so any pathing problem would be confined to Castlefield Junction to Piccadilly. If you think there's a pathing problem there, then you're going to have problems with the extra 4tph each way that the Ordsall Chord will bring.
As to Piccadilly to Longsight/Stockport, the EMU wouldn't need to go to either of those places. How about c.0904 ECS Trafford Park East Junction to Piccadilly, then 0914 Piccadilly to Manchester Airport? There'd be time for a stop at Oxford Road, if required, and even Deansgate as well.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It's not just about where trains can and can't go though is it, there's other aspects to consider, perhaps the traincrew are needed for another service? Or it's the end of their shift? Or maybe that crew don't sign the route? Perhaps there's something else that's overlooked?

 

[DJH1971]

319218 and 319219.

And their future status is still unclear.

 

[Bovverboy]

Originally Posted by Bovverboy
There certainly aren't any 'rammed' trains on the Deansgate-Bolton-Victoria circuit at the time of day we're talking.

Originally Posted by jcollins
What about Stockport to Oxford Road?

Originally Posted by Bovverboy
Stockport to Oxford Road isn't on the Deansgate-Bolton-Victoria circuit.

That's the point I'm making there are very busy trains between Stockport and Oxford Road.

I'm afraid I still don't understand what the connection is between there being very busy trains between Stockport and Oxford Road and what happens Deansgate-Bolton-Manchester Victoria. Are you saying that the Stockport to Oxford Road section is so busy that extra trains have to run, then they have to go to Bolton to reverse?

 

[djpontrack]

Has anymore 319's arrived at Allerton recently for Northern and are 319218 & 319219 going to be working soon or are they being used for spare parts as has been suggested?

 

[childwallblues]

Has anymore 319's arrived at Allerton recently for Northern and are 319218 & 319219 going to be working soon or are they being used for spare parts as has been suggested?

Rumours are rife about 319450 but this has I believe left Wolverton and returned to Bedford.

 

[pemma]

I'm afraid I still don't understand what the connection is between there being very busy trains between Stockport and Oxford Road and what happens Deansgate-Bolton-Manchester Victoria.

You're making the same point when I haven't said anything further since you last posted!

Are you saying that the Stockport to Oxford Road section is so busy that extra trains have to run, then they have to go to Bolton to reverse?

No I'm saying Northern have to provide a certain number of services between Stockport and Oxford Rd and a certain number of services between Bolton and Victoria so it's probably due to diagramming and pathing constraints that a Crewe to Oxford Road service was extended to Bolton and then works a service starting at Bolton.

The EMU can enter the reversing siding without conflicting with any other train movements, and once there it can stay until c.1600 before the siding is needed for any other reversal.

All very well saying that but the EMU can't go for maintenance or be easily used to fill in for a failed EMU if it's not at a depot or station. Then you have the additional costs of taxiing the crews to/from the sidings.

 

[notlob.divad]

I traveled into Liverpool on Saturday on the 1731 Ex Wigan. I was expecting this to be a 319 however, we had the return of a couple of Pacers.

I know there was quite a bit of engineering work in Manchester on the weekend with services stopping short at Eccles, and it appears that a 319 on the South Parkway - Preston service had a door failure however this failure was after the pacer must have left Lime Street for Wigan after previously running a CLC service from Oxford Road.

My return journey was a 319 as where the units passing us in the other direction so I know there was not an issue with the OHLE. It confuses me as to northern are running services that could run as EMUs as Diesel when there is apparently a shortage of DMUs and some 319s that haven't moved since they arrived at Allerton.

This isn't a complaint, the service was put on and I got to my destination (If a handful of minutes late) it is more an operational query as to why such a decision would have been taken.

 

[sd0733]

Passed northern 323226 heading down the wcml earlier then in the reception sidings at Wolverton about to be attached to the 08 to head into the works. Anyone know what its there for?

 

[pemma]

I traveled into Liverpool on Saturday on the 1731 Ex Wigan. I was expecting this to be a 319 however, we had the return of a couple of Pacers.

I know there was quite a bit of engineering work in Manchester on the weekend with services stopping short at Eccles, and it appears that a 319 on the South Parkway - Preston service had a door failure however this failure was after the pacer must have left Lime Street for Wigan after previously running a CLC service from Oxford Road.

My return journey was a 319 as where the units passing us in the other direction so I know there was not an issue with the OHLE. It confuses me as to northern are running services that could run as EMUs as Diesel when there is apparently a shortage of DMUs and some 319s that haven't moved since they arrived at Allerton.

This isn't a complaint, the service was put on and I got to my destination (If a handful of minutes late) it is more an operational query as to why such a decision would have been taken.

It seems for some reason there was a unit swap at Lime Street with the Pacers had just come off an Oxford Road working being used on a Wigan working which is why the inbound working was 10 minutes late.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I traveled into Liverpool on Saturday on the 1731 Ex Wigan. I was expecting this to be a 319 however, we had the return of a couple of Pacers.

I know there was quite a bit of engineering work in Manchester on the weekend with services stopping short at Eccles, and it appears that a 319 on the South Parkway - Preston service had a door failure however this failure was after the pacer must have left Lime Street for Wigan after previously running a CLC service from Oxford Road.

My return journey was a 319 as where the units passing us in the other direction so I know there was not an issue with the OHLE. It confuses me as to northern are running services that could run as EMUs as Diesel when there is apparently a shortage of DMUs and some 319s that haven't moved since they arrived at Allerton.

This isn't a complaint, the service was put on and I got to my destination (If a handful of minutes late) it is more an operational query as to why such a decision would have been taken.

There seems to have been a larger number of diesels than usual on the Chat Moss route over the weekends, including single 156s, this has been noted by staff, not least the 2020 to Eccles on Saturday, which was a pair of 142s and noted as "wedged".

Given the reduced service requirement for the 319s during the works at Ordsall Lane Junction (no LIV-MIA services), there isn't really an excuse for it.

 

[Loop & Link]

I traveled into Liverpool on Saturday on the 1731 Ex Wigan. I was expecting this to be a 319 however, we had the return of a couple of Pacers.

I know there was quite a bit of engineering work in Manchester on the weekend with services stopping short at Eccles, and it appears that a 319 on the South Parkway - Preston service had a door failure however this failure was after the pacer must have left Lime Street for Wigan after previously running a CLC service from Oxford Road.

My return journey was a 319 as where the units passing us in the other direction so I know there was not an issue with the OHLE. It confuses me as to northern are running services that could run as EMUs as Diesel when there is apparently a shortage of DMUs and some 319s that haven't moved since they arrived at Allerton.

This isn't a complaint, the service was put on and I got to my destination (If a handful of minutes late) it is more an operational query as to why such a decision would have been taken.

The diagram was STP'd and the DMU's were booked working in from Oxford Road. I assume this is because the units involved aren't walk through units and there is no walking route at Eccles to change ends and shunt. 319's were concentrated on the Eccles turnbacks.

 

[Class377/5]

More 319s to Northern shortly with 319424/434/450/458 transferring shortly.

 

[Mordac]

More 319s to Northern shortly with 319424/434/450/458 transferring shortly.

Thank you very much for this. According to my records with the 7 already gone to Wolverton or with Northern this will leave one outstanding of the 12 they're meant to get.

I wonder why they're not getting the six 319/3s that are still with Thameslink, since that would make their fleet more uniform. Or maybe in this case they prefer it not to be uniform, given their poor reliability record.

 

[1179_Clee2]

More 319s to Northern shortly with 319424/434/450/458 transferring shortly.

To be used where on Northern?
Not needed in traffic for 13 months.
Not needed to test new electrification or train drivers for 12 months.
Only use is to release existing Class 319's for TSI PRM mods?

 

[Class377/5]

To be used where on Northern?
Not needed in traffic for 13 months.
Not needed to test new electrification or train drivers for 12 months.
Only use is to release existing Class 319's for TSI PRM mods?

Ask Northern, I only know they are off elsewhere running direct from Thameslink to Northern.

 

[pemma]

To be used where on Northern?
Not needed in traffic for 13 months.
Not needed to test new electrification or train drivers for 12 months.
Only use is to release existing Class 319's for TSI PRM mods?

From the franchise agreement

The Franchisee shall, as proposed in its response to the Invitation to Tender, refurbish the interiors of 64 Class 333 vehicles, 162 Class 150 vehicles, 14 Class 155 vehicles, 114 Class 158 vehicles, 48 Class 170 vehicles, 128 Class 319 vehicles and 94 Class 156 vehicles to the following specification:
(a) recovering of all seats and the replacement of all seat cushions;
(b) new floor coverings throughout;
(c) repainting of all interior panels;
(d) powder coating of all grab poles and rails;
(e) a clean compliant with the Deep Clean Specification;
(f) full exterior repaint (it being agreed that with regard to those Class 319s units repainted into the current Northern operator’s livery in 2015 or 2016 re-painting of those units shall be completed by 31 March 2023);
(g) fitting of Wi-Fi compliant with at least the Minimum Wi-Fi Service Requirements;
(h) fitting of at least one PRM compliant toilet with baby-change facility per multiple unit;
(i) fitting of LED lighting, with lighting intensity complying with EN 13272 ‘Railway Applications – Electrical Lighting for Rolling Stock in Public Transport Systems’;
(j) fitting of a passenger information system compliant with the Passenger Information System Specification;
(k) fitting of CCTV compliant with the Internal CCTV Specification;
(l) fitted with a driver advisory system to advise the driver on the most economical method of driving consistent with good timekeeping;
(m) fitted with forward facing CCTV;
(n) fitted to be “ERTMS-ready” so that when ETCS equipment needs to be installed in accordance with the Network Rail programme it can be done without needing intrusive works including because necessary wiring is in place and space for the equipment has been kept free as part of the refurbishment works.

In addition to the works specified in paragraph 36.1:
...
(d) each Class 319 and Class 333 unit shall be fitted with pantograph monitoring CCTV.

So quite a bit of work to be getting on with and if it's all done on the 319s pre-December 2019 then it means they won't have to be taken out-of-service for the work to be done after electrification is complete.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So quite a bit of work to be getting on with and if it's all done on the 319s pre-December 2019 then it means they won't have to be taken out-of-service for the work to be done after electrification is complete.

I doubt they can do more than a couple of units at a time, and there doesn't appear to be any urgent need (other than for the mods already done to the existing Northern 319s).
Other Northern trains are in greater need of upgrading.
Most of these are not needed by Northern for the best part of a year, unless there is a cascade plan we don't know about.
Granted, we don't know what the lease terms are.

 

[Class377/5]

I doubt they can do more than a couple of units at a time, and there doesn't appear to be any urgent need (other than for the mods already done to the existing Northern 319s).
Other Northern trains are in greater need of upgrading.
Most of these are not needed by Northern for the best part of a year, unless there is a cascade plan we don't know about.
Granted, we don't know what the lease terms are.

The Northern units are supposed to be visiting Wolverton for 2020 mods meaning it would be fairly simple to be done. Quick update the viynals and interior done at depot alongside some of Northern's units heading to Wolverton.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Would have been nice to see all Manchester peak time services formed at least of 4 cars by next month considering it really should have occurred under "old" Northern! At least when the 323s go in two years' time, the 4-car 331s and 319s will be deployed around MAN. Let's hope the busiest services will be doubles (like I've seen a few more of on the Metrolink this week!) but I have a feeling that platform lengths might not permit that.

 

[158722]

Thank you very much for this. According to my records with the 7 already gone to Wolverton or with Northern this will leave one outstanding of the 12 they're meant to get.

I wonder why they're not getting the six 319/3s that are still with Thameslink, since that would make their fleet more uniform. Or maybe in this case they prefer it not to be uniform, given their poor reliability record.

319456 also reported as having moved to Wolverton, so that makes 6 there, plus the two which moved on to Allerton. Plus these 4, makes the list up to the 12 which were noted several months ago.

 

[Mordac]

319456 also reported as having moved to Wolverton, so that makes 6 there, plus the two which moved on to Allerton. Plus these 4, makes the list up to the 12 which were noted several months ago.

Thanks for that! That makes more sense than leaving just one unit missing, the 319456 move must have happened after the cutoff date for December's Today's Railways, so that wraps it up.

 

[pemma]

Would have been nice to see all Manchester peak time services formed at least of 4 cars by next month considering it really should have occurred under "old" Northern! At least when the 323s go in two years' time, the 4-car 331s and 319s will be deployed around MAN. Let's hope the busiest services will be doubles (like I've seen a few more of on the Metrolink this week!) but I have a feeling that platform lengths might not permit that.

The 319s can't run to 323 timings plus the 319s have 20m carriages so they'll only have 286 seats once the modifications are done (similar to what the 323s currently have.) The 4 car 331s will have 284 seats but they will have 2+2 seating.