Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[Chris125]

I feel that this is the name that was given to the gravitational marshalling yard, used to handle of the rail goods traffic to and from Liverpool Docks.

That sounds about right going by the following photo:


Gridiron May 1968 Looking towards Edgehill 2 by Wavertreelad, on Flickr

"Edge Hill Gridiron looking west towards Edge Hill from Rathbone Road Bridge on the last day of steam in May 1968"

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Managed a first Manchester-Liverpool electric trip today on 319 362. I found it a bit ho-hum by the end.
They perform well, are quick off the mark, and are obviously more spacious and quieter than a 2-car 15x.
Superficially they have smart refitted interiors.
But they betray their origin as 1980s-design "electric 150s".
The doors still go BANG passing other trains at speed (now 180mph passing speed with 185s/319s on this route).
The interconnecting doors still have that won't-close-properly feeling, with loose handles.
Sound insulation is poor, even with all the hopper windows closed.
I began in a middle trailer, but got fed up with the compressor going off, so moved to the front car.
This suffered from some brake-servo noise which came on whenever the brakes were applied.
After stopping at all the signals from Wavertree to the buffers at Lime St I was glad to get off.
(Brake noise is not unique to 319s, Voyagers can be pretty irritating too).
I'll just say I was happier with the ambience of my connecting Merseyrail 507s than the 319.
One feature I noticed on Thameslink was the scratched windows and special anti-scratch film they applied.
I forgot to check whether these had been removed during the refurb, partly because the day was dark and dreary.
Something to check next time.

 

[martynbristow]

Managed a first Manchester-Liverpool electric trip today on 319 362. I found it a bit ho-hum by the end.
They perform well, are quick off the mark, and are obviously more spacious and quieter than a 2-car 15x.
Superficially they have smart refitted interiors.
But they betray their origin as 1980s-design "electric 150s".
The doors still go BANG passing other trains at speed (now 180mph passing speed with 185s/319s on this route).
The interconnecting doors still have that won't-close-properly feeling, with loose handles.
Sound insulation is poor, even with all the hopper windows closed.
I began in a middle trailer, but got fed up with the compressor going off, so moved to the front car.
This suffered from some brake-servo noise which came on whenever the brakes were applied.
After stopping at all the signals from Wavertree to the buffers at Lime St I was glad to get off.
(Brake noise is not unique to 319s, Voyagers can be pretty irritating too).
I'll just say I was happier with the ambience of my connecting Merseyrail 507s than the 319.
One feature I noticed on Thameslink was the scratched windows and special anti-scratch film they applied.
I forgot to check whether these had been removed during the refurb, partly because the day was dark and dreary.
Something to check next time.

Ohhh not as good as a 507/508 thats pretty dire then :P
Mainly because I had a crowded train in and out today

 

[Wavertreelad]

That sounds about right going by the following photo:


Gridiron May 1968 Looking towards Edgehill 2 by Wavertreelad, on Flickr

"Edge Hill Gridiron looking west towards Edge Hill from Rathbone Road Bridge on the last day of steam in May 1968"

I've attached the other picture which shows the Gridiron looking east on which the Care Home and houses have been built on.

I've also attached a picture taken in the late 1950 or early 1960's showing the bridge from which the two other pictures were taken. Sharp eyed readers will notice that this view shows the Gridiron without the OHLE which was erected about 1962/1963. The deck of the bridge was removed one weekend in the early 1970's after the Gridiron closed, although the supporting walls remained in place until they too were demolished when Wavertree Technology Park was constructed in the mid 1980's. Sadly I have not been able to find any further images of the area whilst he bridge was still in place.

 

[DJH1971]

Looks like we have just had the first 319 failure.

The 06:16 service from Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport was cancelled this morning, apparently due to brake problems.

 

[185]

But it's... a brand new train.....

*runs for cover*

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Looks like we have just had the first 319 failure.

The 06:16 service from Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport was cancelled this morning, apparently due to brake problems.

How many days has this unit been in service on Northern Rail?

 

[pemma]

How many days has this unit been in service on Northern Rail?

Under 7. The first 319 services started last week and no 319s operated in passenger service last weekend.

 

[mtbox]

You cannot make a silk purse out of a pigs ear.

A lick of paint and new seat covers is no more than a cosmetic make over, and don't forget these cast offs are over 25 years old.

 

[pemma]

Looks like we have just had the first 319 failure.

The 06:16 service from Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport was cancelled this morning, apparently due to brake problems.

The booked ECS movement from Allerton to Lime Street was cancelled and a new one was added in to run slightly later. A train departed Lime Street for Manchester Airport at just before 06:19 but was terminated at Edge Hill.

 

[samuelmorris]

The comment about the compressor is valid, I routinely travel in the power car of a lot of EMUs as I'd rather have noise that relates to the speed of the train than something that comes on and off intermittently...

 

[8A Rail]

The booked ECS movement from Allerton to Lime Street was cancelled and a new one was added in to run slightly later. A train departed Lime Street for Manchester Airport at just before 06:19 but was terminated at Edge Hill.

I'm able to confirm that 1F93 08.55hrs Manchester Piccadilly to Liverpool Lime Street was a Class 156 (493?) which would of been 319262 but that failed at Edge Hill. However, 319363 was on 1H45 0916 Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport, pass Rainhill @ 09.33hrs.

 

[callum112233]

Can someone post the times of these new 319's for those who want a run on them please?

Thanks.

 

[martynbristow]

I'm able to confirm that 1F93 08.55hrs Manchester Piccadilly to Liverpool Lime Street was a Class 156 (493?) which would of been 319262 but that failed at Edge Hill. However, 319363 was on 1H45 0916 Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport, pass Rainhill @ 09.33hrs.

Is this a failure outright or more that Northern weren't able to recover it quickly enough because they haven't settled in.
If its the later the problem would be short lived and also affects new rolling stock

 

[hairyhandedfool]

How many days has this unit been in service on Northern Rail?

In passenger service? Fourth day of running today.

Can someone post the times of these new 319's for those who want a run on them please?

Thanks.

0616,0716,0916,1215,1416,1516,1713,1814 Liverpool-Man Air and 0735,0840,1040,1340,1540,1640,1840,1940 Man Air-Liverpool

 

[samj]

Howcome they are only using 319362/319363?

 

[pemma]

Howcome they are only using 319362/319363?

Possibly it's what's DfT signed off - 2 in service pre-May timetable change and the rest afterwards?

I know that was the case with the ex-LM 150s - 8 were in allowed in service almost straight away as replacement for the 180s and the EMT bound 156s and the rest stayed out of service until the timetable change.

 

[WatcherZero]

Last I heard they wanted 8 to be in service by May and the 3rd was due to enter service shortly.

 

[DJH1971]

Last I heard they wanted 8 to be in service by May and the 3rd was due to enter service shortly.

Any day now I take it?

 

[Brian Aylott]

Under 7. The first 319 services started last week and no 319s operated in passenger service last weekend.

What's the significance of the question?

As a result of this, are the moaners now going to say that rubbish stock is being sent to the North from the South?

And/or are they going to say that the Allerton staff are ex Newton Heath?

In fact of course the 319s have been in traffic a lot longer than 7 days on training runs to Crewe

It is to be expected that there will be problems initially as everyone is on a learning curve

Most as the Allerton staff will not have maintained an EMU before - probably none a 319

The Liverpool drivers are similarly inexperienced

If the moaners don't want the 319s they can keep the 150s, the 156s - and the 142s or go without additional stock

I have lived in the North for about 30 years and enjoy it up here - in this time I have travelled on hundreds of services including 142s and have only once been unhappy with the state of a NH unit

A chat with NH and it was put right within 24 hours

Be grateful for the 319s and the Newton Heath and Allerton men

Brian

 

[martynbristow]

What's the significance of the question?

As a result of this, are the moaners now going to say that rubbish stock is being sent to the North from the South?

And/or are they going to say that the Allerton staff are ex Newton Heath?

In fact of course the 319s have been in traffic a lot longer than 7 days on training runs to Crewe

It is to be expected that there will be problems initially as everyone is on a learning curve

Most as the Allerton staff will not have maintained an EMU before - probably none a 319

The Liverpool drivers are similarly inexperienced

If the moaners don't want the 319s they can keep the 150s, the 156s - and the 142s or go without additional stock

I have lived in the North for about 30 years and enjoy it up here - in this time I have travelled on hundreds of services including 142s and have only once been unhappy with the state of a NH unit

A chat with NH and it was put right within 24 hours

Be grateful for the 319s and the Newton Heath and Allerton men

Brian

If its just a learning curve then it won't happen when the units are settled in. Experience will lead the crews to be able to respond better in the future.

 

[AM9]

If its just a learning curve then it won't happen when the units are settled in. Experience will lead the crews to be able to respond better in the future.

This first failure must seem like manna from heaven to the naysayers here. Trains fail. Get over it!
Do the 508s ever fail, or the 350s, the 185s etc.? The 319s fail quite regularly in the south east, but there are nearly 80 sets there. Electrostars and Desiros also fail and no doubt the 700s will have their days.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What's the significance of the question? As a result of this, are the moaners now going to say that rubbish stock is being sent to the North from the South? And/or are they going to say that the Allerton staff are ex Newton Heath?

Why on earth should "they" say what you have stated in the final sentence of the extract shown above that I have caused to be emboldened.

 

[martynbristow]

This first failure must seem like manna from heaven to the naysayers here. Trains fail. Get over it!
Do the 508s ever fail, or the 350s, the 185s etc.? The 319s fail quite regularly in the south east, but there are nearly 80 set there. Electrostars and Desiros also fail and no doubt the 700s will have their days.

Yes I didn't say that this is a bad sign.
Read my post I said it may just be teaching problems and not a sign of long term issues.

 

[158722]

I had the chance to sample 319362 from Manchester Airport on Friday, along with several Northern 142s, 150s and 323s over the weekend.

Having used to 319s on Thameslink many times, they are a known quantity and what I found on 319362 was of no surprise at all - it is a refreshed 319, pretty much unchanged from the TL ones I know and it did exactly what I expected it to... The compressor on 362 was a bit noisier than normal, IMHO.

In comparison with the 323s, a type I'm less familiar with, but still a fairly well-known class to travel, I found Northern's fleet to be in remarkably good shape and most certainly a level above their 142s and 150s. 323 acceleration notably better, as has been referred to many times, but the 319 was not exactly sluggish compared with the diesel units it is replacing.

The 142s I used, all the bus-seated variety were all fairly clean and tidy, again what I expected, nothing more, nothing less. In contrast, the 150s I used were notably very tatty, especially the long-term Northern ones (218 particularly), whilst the ex-LM ones were slightly better.

Overall, yes the 319s are better than what they replace (150s and 156s at present on the Airports) bringing extra capacity, hopefully faster services once the timetable can be adjusted and an overall better travelling experience. They are not a step-change improvement however, but they are more than adequate for the services they will be used on. The removal of the 5th row of seats to give 2+2 throughout would have been a good move, even if the extra cost of totally new seating, SWT 455 style for example, could not have been found (yet).

319s - clean (for now!) and tidy electric 150s, what else were you expecting?! Totally fit for the purpose, so the negative comments are unjustified in my view. Bring them on, lets get all 20+ in traffic asap, get some extra capacity going on their services and use that extra diesel capacity elsewhere. Finally, heading the right direction, even if a little late.

 

[pemma]

Do the 508s ever fail, or the 350s, the 185s etc.? The 319s fail quite regularly in the south east, but there are nearly 80 sets there. Electrostars and Desiros also fail and no doubt the 700s will have their days.

Probably best not to mention 350 reliability in a thread relating to units being used in the North West: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=103082
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In comparison with the 323s, a type I'm less familiar with, but still a fairly well-known class to travel, I found Northern's fleet to be in remarkably good shape and most certainly a level above their 142s and 150s. 323 acceleration notably better, as has been referred to many times, but the 319 was not exactly sluggish compared with the diesel units it is replacing.

I think that's the issue. 323s operate out of Manchester and they are an improvement on the 1980s designs so some people will be unhappy that their line gets 319s while other lines have 323s, even if the 319s are better than what was previously used. Of course, that's not exclusive to 319s or EMUs though.

CP6 electrification could be interesting given Northern are to get new self-powered trains by 2019 (which could find their way on to lines being electrified in CP6) and it's not expected the next Northern franchise will take on any modern EMUs (other than the rumoured 350s for regional services.)

At present the 319s haven't really been challenged - they are just doing what 75mph DMUs have been doing for years. I saw a post elsewhere where someone asked if Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester gets electrified in CP6 could stoppers call at more stations without the stoppers getting in the way of express services, giving stations like Glazebrook, Trafford Park and Humphrey Park a decent service. That's really the sort of thing we should be aiming for with electrification considering a selling point is faster acceleration.

 

[Brian Aylott]

Why on earth should "they" say what you have stated in the final sentence of the extract shown above that I have caused to be emboldened.

Only because some moaners are always running down NH's maintenance of their units and with the reopening of AN the 156s went to AN and possibly some NH men
Brian

 

[AM9]

Yes I didn't say that this is a bad sign.
Read my post I said it may just be teaching problems and not a sign of long term issues.

Martyn, it wasn't aimed at you. Early failures are just as likely with new stock. At least the failure modes of 319s are well known down south and I can't believe that some information won't be passed over,
possibly through Portebrook.
Most of us know that there will be a bedding-in period with any cascaded stock, but that won't stop some starting the 'London cast-off' whining again.

 

[DJH1971]

Martyn, it wasn't aimed at you. Early failures are just as likely with new stock. At least the failure modes of 319s are well known down south and I can't believe that some information won't be passed over,
possibly through Portebrook.
Most of us know that there will be a bedding-in period with any cascaded stock, but that won't stop some starting the 'London cast-off' whining again.

And it doesn't necessarily mean they can't be solved.

I believe that when the Class 87 locos first came out, they had at first quite a number of problems, but they were quickly resoled and they went on to be probably the best AC electric loco we ever had.

 

[387star]

When did the total number heading for northern increase to 20?

Does anybody know what is happening to the 319/2 arguably the best in the fleet?