Northern Service Reductions from 4th Jan 2022

[Greybeard33]

Annoyingly the running time is 37 minutes (Ormskirk being 32), which makes both quite wasteful of units to do an hourly service. Colne is 1h10 which is similarly bad. I can see the benefits of joining them up (e.g. Ormskirk + Colne = a cycle of 1h42 each way with 18 minutes layover, which is a reasonably decent fit for 4 units), but also the problems it has clearly caused.

I guess it's just one of those things where the Takt has more benefit than not using the extra unit, particularly towards Blackpool. There doesn't seem anywhere else obvious to send it.

This has been happening on Saturdays for quite a while now. Blackpool South trains terminate in P1 at Preston then clear off to a siding outside the station for half an hour before coming back into P1 a couple of minutes before the departure time. The Colne and Ormskirk trains use 3C and 4C all day.

The M-F interworked diagrams have 1h5 layover in P3C/4C, between arrival from Colne and departure to Ormskirk. This is roughly the same as the sum of the three layovers at Preston for the Saturday split diagrams. So no extra unit needed on Saturday, unless the Blackpool diagrams are strengthened. Not sure about the crew diagrams, though.

If any sense, huge fine (5 figures) for every train not reinstated after the half term.

Who do you suggest should fine whom?

 

[Bald Rick]

If any sense, huge fine (5 figures) for every train not reinstated after the half term.

a TOC owned and funded wholly by Government being fined by either an infrastructure owner owned wholly by Government? Or fined by government directly?

 

[30907]

I guess it's just one of those things where the Takt has more benefit than not using the extra unit, particularly towards Blackpool. There doesn't seem anywhere else obvious to send it.

On present times you could do Blackburn and back non-stop, but I'm not convinced it would be sensible. However, it would be there at exactly the same time as the Blackburn-Todmorden-Manchester Vic-Kirkby service - which opens up an intriguing possibility (or an operating nightmare if you prefer) of connecting the two.
There's also a facing crossover at Bamber Bridge, so it would theoretically be possible to terminate there, but I doubt the crossover is signalled in that direction.
So I reluctantly agree - park the South unit in a siding, unless you want to send it North (Morecambe For Eden?!)

 

[Kite159]

The latest OPSTA newsletter, in my inbox this morning, says that Northern's plan is to link Ormskirk-Colne workings, operated by 2-car units, so that the Preston-Blackpool South route can be separated from them and worked by 4-car units. This would seem to provide accommodation where it will be most needed in the summer.

Makes perfect sense.

Although breaking out the crayons extend the Preston - Blackpool South services to run semi-fast to Blackburn (calling at say Bamber Bridge & Mills Hill) where it can make use of the west facing bay platform. Gets rid of the need to do ECS shunts at Preston to get the units out of the way and gives another train per hour linking Preston & Blackburn [which could take some of the loadings from the 3 coach 195s on York trains]

 

[Moonshot]

Any news on this particular matter in the 10 days since this posting was made?

Ballot papers are with staff, for return by end of Feb.

 

[muddythefish]

The latest OPSTA newsletter, in my inbox this morning, says that Northern's plan is to link Ormskirk-Colne workings, operated by 2-car units, so that the Preston-Blackpool South route can be separated from them and worked by 4-car units. This would seem to provide accommodation where it will be most needed in the summer.

So East Lancashire (Blackburn, Burnley, Accrington etc) would lose its direct trains to Blackpool? I wouldn't be happy with that and seems to me another example of operator convenience at the expense of passengers.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Run semi-fast to Blackburn (calling at say Bamber Bridge & Mills Hill)

No thanks, that would take too long.

 

[Jamesrob637]

It was half in jest but, if TOCs were severely punished, that would be one way to learn that severely-reduced timetables are not the way forward. Customers in places are used to an almost turn-up-and-go frequency, and without that they will not take to the trains.

 

[Clarence Yard]

It would if TOCs were still in charge of the timetable offer but they are not now. As the timetable decisions are now being taken by the DfT, do you propose the DfT fining itself?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It was half in jest but, if TOCs were severely punished, that would be one way to learn that severely-reduced timetables are not the way forward. Customers in places are used to an almost turn-up-and-go frequency, and without that they will not take to the trains.

Severely-reduced timetables are better than random cancellations. Those are the only two options.

Again, the mind boggles at the denial of the situation we are seeing here. I totally get opposition to stuff like masks (though debate on it is for the COVID forum). But people now seem to be denying the simple existence of something that is causing sickness levels to be unprecedentedly high across the whole of industry, not just rail. That or they're so self-centred that they are ignoring impacts on anyone other than themselves.

Perhaps TOCs should start recruiting if this is how things will be long term, and some TOCs are indeed recruiting, but it takes months to get new traincrew onto trains. I believe least-impacted LNER was fortunate in when they started recruitment prior to Omicron.

 

[Bald Rick]

Severely-reduced timetables are better than random cancellations. Those are the only two options.

Again, the mind boggles at the denial of the situation we are seeing here. I totally get opposition to stuff like masks (though debate on it is for the COVID forum). But people now seem to be denying the simple existence of something that is causing sickness levels to be unprecedentedly high across the whole of industry, not just rail. That or they're so self-centred that they are ignoring impacts on anyone other than themselves.

Perhaps TOCs should start recruiting if this is how things will be long term, and some TOCs are indeed recruiting, but it takes months to get new traincrew onto trains. I believe least-impacted LNER was fortunate in when they started recruitment prior to Omicron.

the least impacted - LNER and GA, were both fortunate in that they had recruited and trained up for service expansions that have not (and may not) happen.

 

[Moonshot]

It was half in jest but, if TOCs were severely punished, that would be one way to learn that severely-reduced timetables are not the way forward. Customers in places are used to an almost turn-up-and-go frequency, and without that they will not take to the trains.

I can assure you that the decision to reduce services is not taken lightly, and ( as a few have already pointed out) is a reflection of the current situation which is not of the rail industry doing. That said, there have been some encouraging numbers for some routes passenger loadings, but it is patchy.

 

[Llandudno]

I can assure you that the decision to reduce services is not taken lightly, and ( as a few have already pointed out) is a reflection of the current situation which is not of the rail industry doing. That said, there have been some encouraging numbers for some routes passenger loadings, but it is patchy.

You tease!

Which passenger routes are showing encouraging passenger loadings…?

 

[northernchris]

Severely-reduced timetables are better than random cancellations. Those are the only two options.

Again, the mind boggles at the denial of the situation we are seeing here. I totally get opposition to stuff like masks (though debate on it is for the COVID forum). But people now seem to be denying the simple existence of something that is causing sickness levels to be unprecedentedly high across the whole of industry, not just rail. That or they're so self-centred that they are ignoring impacts on anyone other than themselves.

Perhaps TOCs should start recruiting if this is how things will be long term, and some TOCs are indeed recruiting, but it takes months to get new traincrew onto trains. I believe least-impacted LNER was fortunate in when they started recruitment prior to Omicron.

Agree with running a reduced timetable being the least worst option, but Northern's approach so far has been dire. On top of the 'temporary' withdrawals there's still been cases of trains removed from the timetable with less than 24 hours notice, examples of passengers being denied delay repay as Northern don't appear to acknowledge some tickets were bought prior to these withdrawals, and there's still a lot of 2 car workings (both planned and unplanned) despite less units being required

Northern have now announced that some routes in South Yorkshire will be replaced by buses next week, so it seems there's still no stability in available traincrew.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Agree with running a reduced timetable being the least worst option, but Northern's approach so far has been dire. On top of the 'temporary' withdrawals there's still been cases of trains removed from the timetable with less than 24 hours notice, examples of passengers being denied delay repay as Northern don't appear to acknowledge some tickets were bought prior to these withdrawals, and there's still a lot of 2 car workings (both planned and unplanned) despite less units being required

Northern have now announced that some routes in South Yorkshire will be replaced by buses next week, so it seems there's still no stability in available traincrew.

Northern have been dire ever since Arriva took over from Abellio. These latest cuts in South Yorkshire are an absolute disgrace. A service which was half hourly, cut to hourly, then 2 trains per three hours and now no trains at all.

 

[td97]

You tease!

Which passenger routes are showing encouraging passenger loadings…?

Manchester (Piccadilly/Oxford Rd/Deansgate) - Preston via Bolton must be a contender. Anecdotally I would say loadings are actually higher now than in 2019 (present loadings full and standing 6 carriage 331s in the peaks).

 

[geoffk]

Severely-reduced timetables are better than random cancellations. Those are the only two options.

Again, the mind boggles at the denial of the situation we are seeing here. I totally get opposition to stuff like masks (though debate on it is for the COVID forum). But people now seem to be denying the simple existence of something that is causing sickness levels to be unprecedentedly high across the whole of industry, not just rail. That or they're so self-centred that they are ignoring impacts on anyone other than themselves.

Perhaps TOCs should start recruiting if this is how things will be long term, and some TOCs are indeed recruiting, but it takes months to get new traincrew onto trains. I believe least-impacted LNER was fortunate in when they started recruitment prior to Omicron.

With an end in sight to all Covid restrictions based on falling hospitalisation, the rail industry seems to be in disarray. I don't understand how they can be replacing trains with buses as bus drivers are in short supply, but perhaps they are magically immune to Covid.

 

[tbtc]

Northern have been dire ever since Arriva took over from Abellio. These latest cuts in South Yorkshire are an absolute disgrace. A service which was half hourly, cut to hourly, then 2 trains per three hours and now no trains at all.

I mentioned on another thread recently that the Serco/Abellio days look a lot better as time passes by - they got a lot of criticism when the vast majority of the problems were due to successive Governments not wanting to release funds or take long term decisions over things like Pacer replacement - just giving it short term extension after short term extension)

Now we have the Government controlled railway that so many people were clamouring for and... despite money being found for new trains (and replacing the 142/144/153s) it's worse

Whilst people froth about the fact hat there's a gap at Edale (during the quietest month of the year for the Pennine Way), the experience that Northern are giving to towns like Mexborough is terrible - they seem to be abandoning any South Yorkshire routes that they can without inconveniencing Leeds passengers (notice how those services are being retained, it's just Sheffield to Doncaster/ Lincoln/ Nottingham that is being shown as having cuts, everything to West Yorkshire seems untouched?)

You can imagine the righteous anger there'd be if a "bus company" abandoned train services like this - there'd be demands of the franchise being stripped or huge fines for ignoring franchise commitments etc - but the Government controlled Northern can do what they want, the Government aren't going to strip them of the franchise because they are the Government - unaccountable

I really don't want to get into Covid arguments with people but it's mid February now - I could understand cuts having to be made when Omnicron was spreading through communities in December but they still haven't got their act together - I'm running out of patience

At least when there was someone like Serco running the franchise there was the argument that "when the Government takes control then everything will be better" but where's the optimism now?

 

[Watershed]

I really don't want to get into Covid arguments with people but it's mid February now - I could understand cuts having to be made when Omnicron was spreading through communities in December but they still haven't got their act together - I'm running out of patience

Absolutely. There are few other industries where Covid is still being wheeled out as an excuse for decimated service levels.

At least when there was someone like Serco running the franchise there was the argument that "when the Government takes control then everything will be better" but where's the optimism now?

Sadly there is simply no optimism. It's utterly depressing seeing the industry painting itself into a corner like this. In my view, the politicians have let the industry off far too easily. It should have been challenged long ago but the railway is becoming ever more of an irrelevance.

It harks back to the bad old days of the 80s and 90s, whose cutbacks can still be seen today in some areas - for example Leeds to Goole via Knottingley having an essentially "Parliamentary" level of service, as well as the Brigg and Chathill lines. Even some of the lines that have had recent increases (Whitby, Little North Western) still have a rather infrequent service in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Peterthegreat]

I mentioned on another thread recently that the Serco/Abellio days look a lot better as time passes by - they got a lot of criticism when the vast majority of the problems were due to successive Governments not wanting to release funds or take long term decisions over things like Pacer replacement - just giving it short term extension after short term extension)

Now we have the Government controlled railway that so many people were clamouring for and... despite money being found for new trains (and replacing the 142/144/153s) it's worse

Whilst people froth about the fact hat there's a gap at Edale (during the quietest month of the year for the Pennine Way), the experience that Northern are giving to towns like Mexborough is terrible - they seem to be abandoning any South Yorkshire routes that they can without inconveniencing Leeds passengers (notice how those services are being retained, it's just Sheffield to Doncaster/ Lincoln/ Nottingham that is being shown as having cuts, everything to West Yorkshire seems untouched?)

You can imagine the righteous anger there'd be if a "bus company" abandoned train services like this - there'd be demands of the franchise being stripped or huge fines for ignoring franchise commitments etc - but the Government controlled Northern can do what they want, the Government aren't going to strip them of the franchise because they are the Government - unaccountable

I really don't want to get into Covid arguments with people but it's mid February now - I could understand cuts having to be made when Omnicron was spreading through communities in December but they still haven't got their act together - I'm running out of patience

At least when there was someone like Serco running the franchise there was the argument that "when the Government takes control then everything will be better" but where's the optimism now?

Absolutely agree. Services between Sheffield and Leeds via Barnsley increased in December at the same time as stopping services between Sheffield and Doncaster were reduced. Services between Sheffield and Leeds via Moorthorpe and Doncaster and Leeds via South Elmsall are virtually untouched. Other services in West Yorkshire and in the Manchester seem to be stable. Who is driving this stupidity?

Absolutely. There are few other industries where Covid is still being wheeled out as an excuse for decimated service levels.


Sadly there is simply no optimism. It's utterly depressing seeing the industry painting itself into a corner like this. In my view, the politicians have let the industry off far too easily. It should have been challenged long ago but the railway is becoming ever more of an irrelevance.

It harks back to the bad old days of the 80s and 90s, whose cutbacks can still be seen today in some areas - for example Leeds to Goole via Knottingley having an essentially "Parliamentary" level of service, as well as the Brigg and Chathill lines. Even some of the lines that have had recent increases (Whitby, Little North Western) still have a rather infrequent service in the grand scheme of things.

Totally agree regarding the politicians. If they don't hold Northern to account who will?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Totally agree regarding the politicians. If they don't hold Northern to account who will?

Just to put one matter forward for purposes of clarification, after Northern had their franchise removed, who exactly in this "railway of last resort" is in charge of matters such as timetable amendments, how long does the current situation have to run for, and who will either ASLEF or RMT deal with in matters of disputes?

 

[Watershed]

Absolutely agree. Services between Sheffield and Leeds via Barnsley increased in December at the same time as stopping services between Sheffield and Doncaster were reduced. Services between Sheffield and Leeds via Moorthorpe and Doncaster and Leeds via South Elmsall are virtually untouched. Other services in West Yorkshire and in the Manchester seem to be stable. Who is driving this stupidity?

I understand it's down to Sheffield depot having an ongoing shortage of productive drivers. Which can be overcome for Sheffield-Leeds services as they can be operated by Leeds traincrew just as well as by Sheffield. Similarly with Leeds-Doncaster, which are predominantly Leeds crewed.

However Sheffield-Doncaster can only be crewed by Sheffield or the rather small Doncaster depot, so this service is suffering more from Sheffield's issues.

Obviously these are all just internal issues and, quite understandably, the public will just see it as a load of excuses.

 

[Killingworth]

I understand it's down to Sheffield depot having an ongoing shortage of productive drivers. Which can be overcome for Sheffield-Leeds services as they can be operated by Leeds traincrew just as well as by Sheffield. Similarly with Leeds-Doncaster, which are predominantly Leeds crewed.

However Sheffield-Doncaster can only be crewed by Sheffield or the rather small Doncaster depot, so this service is suffering more from Sheffield's issues.

Obviously these are all just internal issues and, quite understandably, the public will just see it as a load of excuses.

Northern openly admit that Sheffield and Sputh Yorksire are a specific major concern and have been saying so in recent stakeholder briefings. Quite why that should be so is unclear to passengers but must be understandable to those familar with current staff levels and operations in South Yorkshire.

Fortunately in the current situation Manchester - Sheffield is operated from Manchester and has been doing better.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Northern openly admit that Sheffield and Sputh Yorksire are a specific major concern and have been saying so in recent stakeholder briefings. Quite why that should be so is unclear to passengers but must be understandable to those familar with current staff levels and operations in South Yorkshire.

Fortunately in the current situation Manchester - Sheffield is operated from Manchester and has been doing better.

Well I have not seen anything and neither have any of my travelling friends.

I understand it's down to Sheffield depot having an ongoing shortage of productive drivers. Which can be overcome for Sheffield-Leeds services as they can be operated by Leeds traincrew just as well as by Sheffield. Similarly with Leeds-Doncaster, which are predominantly Leeds crewed.

However Sheffield-Doncaster can only be crewed by Sheffield or the rather small Doncaster depot, so this service is suffering more from Sheffield's issues.

Obviously these are all just internal issues and, quite understandably, the public will just see it as a load of excuse

Agreed that Sheffield is the main problem but then the question is why? Doncaster depot are not currently having to work Scunthorpe or most Sheffield services so what are they doing?
Hull depot could in theory also work some trains as they have route and (most) traction knowledge (do they still know 150s/)

 

[robbeech]

the least impacted - LNER and GA, were both fortunate in that they had recruited and trained up for service expansions that have not (and may not) happen.

Didn’t GA cut several routes or stations on a route from 8tph to 2tph?

You tease!

Which passenger routes are showing encouraging passenger loadings…?

Those with 1tp2h instead of 2tph

Manchester (Piccadilly/Oxford Rd/Deansgate) - Preston via Bolton must be a contender. Anecdotally I would say loadings are actually higher now than in 2019 (present loadings full and standing 6 carriage 331s in the peaks).

How many are there? Someone said to me the other week that it was great to see full trains again and it was encouraging. I had to point out that it was the only service that hour, it was shortformed and there used to be 3.

With an end in sight to all Covid restrictions based on falling hospitalisation, the rail industry seems to be in disarray. I don't understand how they can be replacing trains with buses as bus drivers are in short supply, but perhaps they are magically immune to Covid.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that all the buses will run. Northern have always had this weird “coincidence” where they book an hourly bus to replace a half hourly train and strangely half of them don’t turn up, almost as if they’ve actually only booked a 2 hourly bus. Happens really quite frequently (for years).

Agreed that Sheffield is the main problem but then the question is why? Doncaster depot are not currently having to work Scunthorpe or most Sheffield services so what are they doing?

I’m not sure but there are generally a good chunk of staff around not on trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Dare I suggest the bus company might be having the same problem but being less honest about it?

It is frustrating for all, the TOC included, but I really do not see why the criticism is in any way legitimate. The only thing I would say is that if this is going to be the case in the very long term it is probably time to start planning properly reduced timetables with longer trains rather than just dropping diagrams, though I am conscious that you could probably not apply those until at least December.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Dare I suggest the bus company might be having the same problem but being less honest about it?

It is frustrating for all, the TOC included, but I really do not see why the criticism is in any way legitimate. The only thing I would say is that if this is going to be the case in the very long term it is probably time to start planning properly reduced timetables with longer trains rather than just dropping diagrams, though I am conscious that you could probably not apply those until at least December.

The criticism is legitimate. It's not just the withdrawing of train services but the whole process. These changes have not really been publicised and changes were made to online systems during the night. The pdf timetables are hidden away on the Northern website under "engineering". People would have gone home yesterday expecting a (new) normal service on Monday - they will be disappointed. All along they have lurched from crisis to crisis making changes which are easiest for them. No one is saying it is easy but it is not easy for the passenger who is left without decent public transport. Train crew take some time to train so why did they increase services to four per hour on the Barnsley line in December and then withdraw services over other routes in January.

 

[sycns]

Sheffield - Doncaster VIA Rotherham Central seems to be the worst hit route out of any others currently. Pre pandemic there were 2tph along the line, and we’re now down to 2tp3h (a massive reduction in frequency) including the removal of the Peak AM arrival into Doncaster and Peak PM departure from Sheffield.

Northern are claiming the bus replacements next week are due to engineering works… however I see no truth in that what so ever.

For the residents of South Yorkshire along this route I don’t see why the following can’t happen.

- Stop the Sheffield - Hull express at local stations between Sheffield & Doncaster

- Reintroduce the XX:30 departure from Sheffield replacing the XX:05 departure as this would be covered by the Hull on the hour departure.

- Remove the Adwick extension except for morning/evening peaks as this is covered on the Leeds-Doncaster service

- Reduction of 11th Sheffield - Barnsley as there are already 4tph on this route

Also if Northern are short staffed in Sheffield with either Drivers or Conductors, why aren’t they recruiting for them?

Shambles!

The Doncaster - Sheffield corridor must be one of the worst hit by the pandemic so far.

Pre Covid we had
2 x local stoppers
1 x Northern fast
1 x TPE
1 x XC

We now have:
1 Northern fast
.5 TPE
.66 local stopper

 

[Peterthegreat]

Sheffield - Doncaster VIA Rotherham Central seems to be the worst hit route out of any others currently. Pre pandemic there were 2tph along the line, and we’re now down to 2tp3h (a massive reduction in frequency) including the removal of the Peak AM arrival into Doncaster and Peak PM departure from Sheffield.

Northern are claiming the bus replacements next week are due to engineering works… however I see no truth in that what so ever.

For the residents of South Yorkshire along this route I don’t see why the following can’t happen.

- Stop the Sheffield - Hull express at local stations between Sheffield & Doncaster

- Reintroduce the XX:30 departure from Sheffield replacing the XX:05 departure as this would be covered by the Hull on the hour departure.

- Remove the Adwick extension except for morning/evening peaks as this is covered on the Leeds-Doncaster service

- Reduction of 11th Sheffield - Barnsley as there are already 4tph on this route

Also if Northern are short staffed in Sheffield with either Drivers or Conductors, why aren’t they recruiting for them?

Shambles!

The Doncaster - Sheffield corridor must be one of the worst hit by the pandemic so far.

Pre Covid we had
2 x local stoppers
1 x Northern fast
1 x TPE
1 x XC

We now have:
1 Northern fast
.5 TPE
.66 local stopper

Absolutely! We are being "sacrificied".

Sheffield - Doncaster VIA Rotherham Central seems to be the worst hit route out of any others currently. Pre pandemic there were 2tph along the line, and we’re now down to 2tp3h (a massive reduction in frequency) including the removal of the Peak AM arrival into Doncaster and Peak PM departure from Sheffield.

Northern are claiming the bus replacements next week are due to engineering works… however I see no truth in that what so ever.

For the residents of South Yorkshire along this route I don’t see why the following can’t happen.

- Stop the Sheffield - Hull express at local stations between Sheffield & Doncaster

- Reintroduce the XX:30 departure from Sheffield replacing the XX:05 departure as this would be covered by the Hull on the hour departure.

- Remove the Adwick extension except for morning/evening peaks as this is covered on the Leeds-Doncaster service

- Reduction of 11th Sheffield - Barnsley as there are already 4tph on this route

Also if Northern are short staffed in Sheffield with either Drivers or Conductors, why aren’t they recruiting for them?

Shambles!

The Doncaster - Sheffield corridor must be one of the worst hit by the pandemic so far.

Pre Covid we had
2 x local stoppers
1 x Northern fast
1 x TPE
1 x XC

We now have:
1 Northern fast
.5 TPE
.66 local stopper

Except the .66 local stopper is a bus from Monday!

 

[sycns]

Absolutely! We are being "sacrificied".


Except the .66 local stopper is a bus from Monday!

Yes I should have mentioned that, sorry! I believe the bus is still going to be 2bp3h though.