Northern Service Reductions from 4th Jan 2022

[Geeves]

moderator note : split from

When will Castleford - Wakefield - Huddersfield services be fully restored?

Before covid this service was a direct hourly service. During the lockdown understandably the service was reduced. However since things began opening up again, virtually all lines have returned to some sort of normal service, however this route hasnt. There are i believe 2-3 direct trains a day...

www.railforums.co.uk

Few more trains biting the dust from the 4th of January on the east

Leeds - Knottingley	12 passenger services withdrawn
Hull - Halifax	Service reduced to a two hourly pattern
Sheffield - Gainsborough	Service withdrawn
Sheffield – Cleethorpes (Saturday only)	Service withdrawn
Sheffield - York	Full-service withdrawal (6 passenger services) Rail replacement bus operating Moorthorpe to York
Leeds - Sheffield stopping service via Barnsley	05:54 Leeds to Sheffield withdrawn
Doncaster - Scunthorpe	Full-service withdrawal Rail replacement bus operating in lieu of scheduled service
Sheffield - Adwick	Mix of hourly and two hourly service
Huddersfield - Bradford	Reduced to 2-hourly
Huddersfield - Castleford	Full-service withdrawal Rail replacement bus
Harrogate Line peaks	Removes 06:23 & 17:39 deps and 07:49 & 09:50 arrivals into Leeds
Harrogate Line peaks	Removes 07:09, 08:41 and 18:46 arrivals and 07:14 and 17:09 departures from Leeds
Airedale Wharfedale Lines	Reduction of 14 passenger services through the day across all routes

 

[Peterthegreat]

Few more trains biting the dust from the 4th of January on the east

Leeds - Knottingley	12 passenger services withdrawn
Hull - Halifax	Service reduced to a two hourly pattern
Sheffield - Gainsborough	Service withdrawn
Sheffield – Cleethorpes (Saturday only)	Service withdrawn
Sheffield - York	Full-service withdrawal (6 passenger services) Rail replacement bus operating Moorthorpe to York
Leeds - Sheffield stopping service via Barnsley	05:54 Leeds to Sheffield withdrawn
Doncaster - Scunthorpe	Full-service withdrawal Rail replacement bus operating in lieu of scheduled service
Sheffield - Adwick	Mix of hourly and two hourly service
Huddersfield - Bradford	Reduced to 2-hourly
Huddersfield - Castleford	Full-service withdrawal Rail replacement bus
Harrogate Line peaks	Removes 06:23 & 17:39 deps and 07:49 & 09:50 arrivals into Leeds
Harrogate Line peaks	Removes 07:09, 08:41 and 18:46 arrivals and 07:14 and 17:09 departures from Leeds
Airedale Wharfedale Lines	Reduction of 14 passenger services through the day across all routes

Do you have a (public) source for this?

 

[tbtc]

Few more trains biting the dust from the 4th of January on the east

Leeds - Knottingley	12 passenger services withdrawn
Hull - Halifax	Service reduced to a two hourly pattern
Sheffield - Gainsborough	Service withdrawn
Sheffield – Cleethorpes (Saturday only)	Service withdrawn
Sheffield - York	Full-service withdrawal (6 passenger services) Rail replacement bus operating Moorthorpe to York
Leeds - Sheffield stopping service via Barnsley	05:54 Leeds to Sheffield withdrawn
Doncaster - Scunthorpe	Full-service withdrawal Rail replacement bus operating in lieu of scheduled service
Sheffield - Adwick	Mix of hourly and two hourly service
Huddersfield - Bradford	Reduced to 2-hourly
Huddersfield - Castleford	Full-service withdrawal Rail replacement bus
Harrogate Line peaks	Removes 06:23 & 17:39 deps and 07:49 & 09:50 arrivals into Leeds
Harrogate Line peaks	Removes 07:09, 08:41 and 18:46 arrivals and 07:14 and 17:09 departures from Leeds
Airedale Wharfedale Lines	Reduction of 14 passenger services through the day across all routes

Cheers for letting us know - pretty grim stuff if that's the case - I wonder what the procedure will be if some lines (Knottingley - Goole, Pontefract Monkhill, Brigg) see all passenger services removed (since we are always told that it needs to have at least one passenger service per week to technically remain "open")

Unsurprising given the short terms staff unavailability/ longer term staffing problems/ reduced passenger numbers - hopefully they use some of the stock "spared" to beef up other services (e.g. peak Harrogate services), but then I guess that part of the argument for removing them is that passenger numbers don't warrant them (?)

I'd rather the railway underpromised but at least met that level of services (rather than promising to provide an hourly train but not having sufficient staff to deliver it, meaning passengers facing random gaps of a couple of hours at relatively short notice) - regrettable but understandable if true

Given the lack of local bus drivers (which have caused operators in Yorkshire to cut many services), I wonder what guarantees there would be that a rail replacement bus will turn up (since Arriva/ First/ Stagecoach etc are struggling to run their own commercial routes) - maybe the railway will pay through the nose to ensure that these boards are met?

 

[skyhigh]

Few more trains biting the dust from the 4th of January on the east

Leeds - Knottingley	12 passenger services withdrawn
Hull - Halifax	Service reduced to a two hourly pattern
Sheffield - Gainsborough	Service withdrawn
Sheffield – Cleethorpes (Saturday only)	Service withdrawn
Sheffield - York	Full-service withdrawal (6 passenger services) Rail replacement bus operating Moorthorpe to York
Leeds - Sheffield stopping service via Barnsley	05:54 Leeds to Sheffield withdrawn
Doncaster - Scunthorpe	Full-service withdrawal Rail replacement bus operating in lieu of scheduled service
Sheffield - Adwick	Mix of hourly and two hourly service
Huddersfield - Bradford	Reduced to 2-hourly
Huddersfield - Castleford	Full-service withdrawal Rail replacement bus
Harrogate Line peaks	Removes 06:23 & 17:39 deps and 07:49 & 09:50 arrivals into Leeds
Harrogate Line peaks	Removes 07:09, 08:41 and 18:46 arrivals and 07:14 and 17:09 departures from Leeds
Airedale Wharfedale Lines	Reduction of 14 passenger services through the day across all routes

That is only the half of it. West and Central are also seeing some fairly significant cuts (currently scheduled to last until 19/02/22).

West and Central Region	Route affected and services withdrawn
Barrow - Manchester Airport	3 services in each direction will not be operating: 07:28 Airport-Barrow 13:28 Airport-Barrow 19:26 Airport-Barrow 04:55 Barrow-Airport 10:48 Barrow-Airport 16:47 Barrow-Airport
Barrow-in-Furness - Carlisle	2 services in each direction will not be operating: 06:19 Carlisle-Barrow 13:07 Carlisle-Lancaster 10:22 Barrow-Carlisle 17:32 Lancaster-Barrow
Preston - Victoria	Service withdrawn (Chorley to Horwich Off Peak rail replacement)
Liverpool - Manchester Airport via Warrington Central	Service withdrawn: Customers are advised to use other services still operating on the route
Preston - Colne	Service reduced from hourly to mix of hourly and two hourly
Preston - Blackpool South	Service reduced from hourly to mix of hourly and two hourly
Preston - Ormskirk	Service reduced from hourly to mix of hourly and two hourly
Manchester Piccadilly - Buxton	Peak additional services withdrawn

Manchester Piccadilly - Sheffield via New Mills Central

1 service withdrawn in each direction 1249 Piccadilly to Sheffield 1414 Sheffield to Piccadilly

Manchester Piccadilly - New Mills Central	3 services withdrawn in each direction 0611 Piccadilly to New Mills Central 1719 Piccadilly to New Mills Central 1919 Piccadilly to New Mills Central 0726 New Mills Central to Piccadilly 1836 New Mills Central to Piccadilly 2034 New Mills Central to Piccadilly
Manchester Piccadilly - Rose Hill	1 service withdrawn in each direction 1540 Piccadilly to Rose Hill 1614 Rose Hill to Piccadilly
Manchester Piccadilly - Hadfield	Mix of hourly and half hourly
Kirkby - Wigan - Victoria - Blackburn via Todmorden	Two hour gap every 5 hours
Liverpool - Blackpool	Mix of hourly and two hourly
Liverpool - Warrington Bank Quay	Service withdrawn: Customers are advised to use other services still operating on the route

North East Region	Route affected and services withdrawn
Darlington - Saltburn	Hourly service remains Bishop – Saltburn; with Darlington – Saltburn reduced to a two hourly service
Carlisle – Newcastle/Morpeth	8 passenger services removed (05:47 Middlesbrough – Carlisle, 10:46 Newcastle – Carlisle, 08:50 Carlisle – Newcastle, 12:25 Carlisle – Morpeth, 16:54 Carlisle – Morpeth, 14:55 Morpeth – Carlisle, 18:56 Morpeth – Carlisle, 21:07 Carlisle – Hartlepool)
Connecting Services	Route affected and services withdrawn
Manchester Piccadilly - Sheffield via New Mills Central	One return trip withdrawn (2 passenger services) 1249 ex Picc, 1414 ex Sheffield
Kirkby - Wigan - Victoria - Blackburn via Todmorden	two hour gap every 5 hours (9 passenger services removed)

 

[Peterthegreat]

That is only the half of it. West and Central are also seeing some fairly significant cuts (currently scheduled to last until 19/02/22).

West and Central Region	Route affected and services withdrawn
Barrow - Manchester Airport	3 services in each direction will not be operating: 07:28 Airport-Barrow 13:28 Airport-Barrow 19:26 Airport-Barrow 04:55 Barrow-Airport 10:48 Barrow-Airport 16:47 Barrow-Airport
Barrow-in-Furness - Carlisle	2 services in each direction will not be operating: 06:19 Carlisle-Barrow 13:07 Carlisle-Lancaster 10:22 Barrow-Carlisle 17:32 Lancaster-Barrow
Preston - Victoria	Service withdrawn (Chorley to Horwich Off Peak rail replacement)
Liverpool - Manchester Airport via Warrington Central	Service withdrawn: Customers are advised to use other services still operating on the route
Preston - Colne	Service reduced from hourly to mix of hourly and two hourly
Preston - Blackpool South	Service reduced from hourly to mix of hourly and two hourly
Preston - Ormskirk	Service reduced from hourly to mix of hourly and two hourly
Manchester Piccadilly - Buxton	Peak additional services withdrawn

Manchester Piccadilly - Sheffield via New Mills Central

1 service withdrawn in each direction 1249 Piccadilly to Sheffield 1414 Sheffield to Piccadilly

Manchester Piccadilly - New Mills Central	3 services withdrawn in each direction 0611 Piccadilly to New Mills Central 1719 Piccadilly to New Mills Central 1919 Piccadilly to New Mills Central 0726 New Mills Central to Piccadilly 1836 New Mills Central to Piccadilly 2034 New Mills Central to Piccadilly
Manchester Piccadilly - Rose Hill	1 service withdrawn in each direction 1540 Piccadilly to Rose Hill 1614 Rose Hill to Piccadilly
Manchester Piccadilly - Hadfield	Mix of hourly and half hourly
Kirkby - Wigan - Victoria - Blackburn via Todmorden	Two hour gap every 5 hours
Liverpool - Blackpool	Mix of hourly and two hourly
Liverpool - Warrington Bank Quay	Service withdrawn: Customers are advised to use other services still operating on the route

North East Region	Route affected and services withdrawn
Darlington - Saltburn	Hourly service remains Bishop – Saltburn; with Darlington – Saltburn reduced to a two hourly service
Carlisle – Newcastle/Morpeth	8 passenger services removed (05:47 Middlesbrough – Carlisle, 10:46 Newcastle – Carlisle, 08:50 Carlisle – Newcastle, 12:25 Carlisle – Morpeth, 16:54 Carlisle – Morpeth, 14:55 Morpeth – Carlisle, 18:56 Morpeth – Carlisle, 21:07 Carlisle – Hartlepool)
Connecting Services	Route affected and services withdrawn
Manchester Piccadilly - Sheffield via New Mills Central	One return trip withdrawn (2 passenger services) 1249 ex Picc, 1414 ex Sheffield
Kirkby - Wigan - Victoria - Blackburn via Todmorden	two hour gap every 5 hours (9 passenger services removed)

The slashing of the service seems to be more an effort to cut costs rather than for staff shortages. If these cuts are not resisted then expect them to become permanent and for similar size cuts to be imposed elsewhere.

 

[Bald Rick]

The slashing of the service seems to be more an effort to cut costs rather than for staff shortages. If these cuts are not resisted then expect them to become permanent and for similar size cuts to be imposed elsewhere.

What’s your evidence for that? Are you suggesting these would be happening without the current high levels of absence?

 

[Peterthegreat]

What’s your evidence for that? Are you suggesting these would be happening without the current high levels of absence?

OK. Two different points
1) Somewhere on another thread you stated it was too early to make decisions a week or so in advance regarding staff numbers. However here we are making reductions up to two MONTHS in advance.
2) Only one return service on the west side of the Pennines appears to have been cancelled due to staff shortage today. So why cancel a fair number of trains early in the New Year?

i am not saying Covid isn't an issue however the proposed cancellations go well beyond what would appear to be necessary.

 

[Bald Rick]

Fair challenge.

Somewhere on another thread you stated it was too early to make decisions a week or so in advance regarding staff numbers. However here we are making reductions up to two MONTHS in advance.

I should explain that. It’s too early to make decisions a week out if you have a reasonable expectation of filing the gaps in the roster. However when the trend goes a certain way, and all the advice from Government is to expect more absence (for several weeks), and, say, you know numbers are going down anyway because of leavers or some other factor, them it is prudent to publish reductions for a longer period. I expect most TOCs do be doing similar in the next couple of weeks.

 

[LOL The Irony]

That is only the half of it. West and Central are also seeing some fairly significant cuts (currently scheduled to last until 19/02/22).

West and Central Region	Route affected and services withdrawn
Barrow - Manchester Airport	3 services in each direction will not be operating: 07:28 Airport-Barrow 13:28 Airport-Barrow 19:26 Airport-Barrow 04:55 Barrow-Airport 10:48 Barrow-Airport 16:47 Barrow-Airport
Barrow-in-Furness - Carlisle	2 services in each direction will not be operating: 06:19 Carlisle-Barrow 13:07 Carlisle-Lancaster 10:22 Barrow-Carlisle 17:32 Lancaster-Barrow
Preston - Victoria	Service withdrawn (Chorley to Horwich Off Peak rail replacement)
Liverpool - Manchester Airport via Warrington Central	Service withdrawn: Customers are advised to use other services still operating on the route
Preston - Colne	Service reduced from hourly to mix of hourly and two hourly
Preston - Blackpool South	Service reduced from hourly to mix of hourly and two hourly
Preston - Ormskirk	Service reduced from hourly to mix of hourly and two hourly
Manchester Piccadilly - Buxton	Peak additional services withdrawn

Manchester Piccadilly - Sheffield via New Mills Central

1 service withdrawn in each direction 1249 Piccadilly to Sheffield 1414 Sheffield to Piccadilly

Manchester Piccadilly - New Mills Central	3 services withdrawn in each direction 0611 Piccadilly to New Mills Central 1719 Piccadilly to New Mills Central 1919 Piccadilly to New Mills Central 0726 New Mills Central to Piccadilly 1836 New Mills Central to Piccadilly 2034 New Mills Central to Piccadilly
Manchester Piccadilly - Rose Hill	1 service withdrawn in each direction 1540 Piccadilly to Rose Hill 1614 Rose Hill to Piccadilly
Manchester Piccadilly - Hadfield	Mix of hourly and half hourly
Kirkby - Wigan - Victoria - Blackburn via Todmorden	Two hour gap every 5 hours
Liverpool - Blackpool	Mix of hourly and two hourly
Liverpool - Warrington Bank Quay	Service withdrawn: Customers are advised to use other services still operating on the route

North East Region	Route affected and services withdrawn
Darlington - Saltburn	Hourly service remains Bishop – Saltburn; with Darlington – Saltburn reduced to a two hourly service
Carlisle – Newcastle/Morpeth	8 passenger services removed (05:47 Middlesbrough – Carlisle, 10:46 Newcastle – Carlisle, 08:50 Carlisle – Newcastle, 12:25 Carlisle – Morpeth, 16:54 Carlisle – Morpeth, 14:55 Morpeth – Carlisle, 18:56 Morpeth – Carlisle, 21:07 Carlisle – Hartlepool)
Connecting Services	Route affected and services withdrawn
Manchester Piccadilly - Sheffield via New Mills Central	One return trip withdrawn (2 passenger services) 1249 ex Picc, 1414 ex Sheffield
Kirkby - Wigan - Victoria - Blackburn via Todmorden	two hour gap every 5 hours (9 passenger services removed)

Liverpool to Blackpool to become mixture of hourly and 2 hourly? Jesus, things are really bad, aren't they?

 

[Peterthegreat]

Liverpool to Blackpool to become mixture of hourly and 2 hourly? Jesus, things are really bad, aren't they?

Either they are or Northern have got it wrong.

 

[HST43257]

I don’t like this ”mix of hourly and 2 hourly” thing. Why can’t we just incorporate slower services into faster services to save crews, money and whatever else? In some cases it’d allow units to join together for near equal capacity as well.

Examples could be
Liverpool to Blackpool incorporating Liverpool to Wigan
Sheffield to Scarborough incorporating Sheffield to Adwick
Leeds to Nottingham incorporating Leeds to Sheffield

 

[Peterthegreat]

Fair challenge.



I should explain that. It’s too early to make decisions a week out if you have a reasonable expectation of filing the gaps in the roster. However when the trend goes a certain way, and all the advice from Government is to expect more absence (for several weeks), and, say, you know numbers are going down anyway because of leavers or some other factor, them it is prudent to publish reductions for a longer period. I expect most TOCs do be doing similar in the next couple of weeks.

I totally agree cancelling services (well) in advance is preferable to cancelling trains at the last minute. However I am far from convinced it will improve things dramatically. My local station had two trains an hour before Covid hit. Currently it has one, cancellations still occur. It appears it will soon be a mix of hourly/two hourly. I fully expect cancellations to continue, leaving a three hour gap. Unfortunately I have absolutely no faith in Northern to mitigate the consequences.

I don’t like this ”mix of hourly and 2 hourly” thing. Why can’t we just incorporate slower services into faster services to save crews, money and whatever else? In some cases it’d allow units to join together for near equal capacity as well.

Examples could be
Liverpool to Blackpool incorporating Liverpool to Wigan
Sheffield to Scarborough incorporating Sheffield to Adwick
Leeds to Nottingham incorporating Leeds to Sheffield

Agree 110%. In one of the Covid iterations the Leeds to Nottingham service ran as the stopping service from Leeds to Sheffield via Moorthorpe.
There are easy wins at the beginning and end of the day. Why do we need fast and stopping services at 05.30/06.30 in the morning. Why are there trains from Doncaster to Sheffield at 23.35 (stopper), 23.43 and 23.49
Unfortunately Northern are unable to think outside the box.

 

[tbtc]

I don’t like this ”mix of hourly and 2 hourly” thing. Why can’t we just incorporate slower services into faster services to save crews, money and whatever else? In some cases it’d allow units to join together for near equal capacity as well.

Examples could be
Liverpool to Blackpool incorporating Liverpool to Wigan
Sheffield to Scarborough incorporating Sheffield to Adwick
Leeds to Nottingham incorporating Leeds to Sheffield

Agree 110%. In one of the Covid iterations the Leeds to Nottingham service ran as the stopping service from Leeds to Sheffield via Moorthorpe.
There are easy wins at the beginning and end of the day. Why do we need fast and stopping services at 05.30/06.30 in the morning. Why are there trains from Doncaster to Sheffield at 23.35 (stopper), 23.43 and 23.49
Unfortunately Northern are unable to think outside the box.

Let's say a service requires five DMUs to run - if you are short on staff (or units) you can run three out of five diagrams, potentially increasing it to four out of five when things gradually improve (before it eventually goes back to five out of five)

But trying to rewrite timetables for the sake of what is expected to be a short term issue could cause a lot of problems - e.g. in the example above, diverting the Sheffield - Hull service through Rotherham Central (crossing the south bound line twice on the flat) - added to the stops required at Swinton/ Mexborough/ Conisbrough - might mean it's lost it's path over the ECML - we've already cut the Sheffield - Scunthorpe service into two to reduce the number of trains crossing Doncaster on the flat because of the number of high speed trains on the ECML - similarly adding in the local stops between Liverpool and Wigan could mean losing your slot on the WCML between Wigan and Preston.

That said, if we aren't going to get the "fast" path via Westgate for the Nottingham - Leeds service (that Arriva promised) then at least running it onto the Dearne Valley stopper would allow it to be extended to three/four coaches (rather than the current capacity limitation due to the need to share platform seventeen at Leeds with the Castleford services) - it'd add ten minutes to the Nottingham - Leeds journey times but I could argue that the capacity increase would be more important than the journey time (the existing Sheffield - Barnsley - Leeds service could remain as a two coach 158, just not running through to Nottingham)

 

[Peterthegreat]

Let's say a service requires five DMUs to run - if you are short on staff (or units) you can run three out of five diagrams, potentially increasing it to four out of five when things gradually improve (before it eventually goes back to five out of five)

But trying to rewrite timetables for the sake of what is expected to be a short term issue could cause a lot of problems - e.g. in the example above, diverting the Sheffield - Hull service through Rotherham Central (crossing the south bound line twice on the flat) - added to the stops required at Swinton/ Mexborough/ Conisbrough - might mean it's lost it's path over the ECML - we've already cut the Sheffield - Scunthorpe service into two to reduce the number of trains crossing Doncaster on the flat because of the number of high speed trains on the ECML - similarly adding in the local stops between Liverpool and Wigan could mean losing your slot on the WCML between Wigan and Preston.

That said, if we aren't going to get the "fast" path via Westgate for the Nottingham - Leeds service (that Arriva promised) then at least running it onto the Dearne Valley stopper would allow it to be extended to three/four coaches (rather than the current capacity limitation due to the need to share platform seventeen at Leeds with the Castleford services) - it'd add ten minutes to the Nottingham - Leeds journey times but I could argue that the capacity increase would be more important than the journey time (the existing Sheffield - Barnsley - Leeds service could remain as a two coach 158, just not running through to Nottingham)

I think it really depends on how long these changes are expected to last. IMHO a bit of lateral thinking wouldn't go amiss. Instead of running all the stopping services through to Adwick (usually with single figure passengers) why not terminate every other train at Doncaster and run the other train through to Scunthorpe via Adwick and Skellow?

 

[william]

moderator note : split from

When will Castleford - Wakefield - Huddersfield services be fully restored?

Before covid this service was a direct hourly service. During the lockdown understandably the service was reduced. However since things began opening up again, virtually all lines have returned to some sort of normal service, however this route hasnt. There are i believe 2-3 direct trains a day...

www.railforums.co.uk

Few more trains biting the dust from the 4th of January on the east

Leeds - Knottingley	12 passenger services withdrawn
Hull - Halifax	Service reduced to a two hourly pattern
Sheffield - Gainsborough	Service withdrawn
Sheffield – Cleethorpes (Saturday only)	Service withdrawn
Sheffield - York	Full-service withdrawal (6 passenger services) Rail replacement bus operating Moorthorpe to York
Leeds - Sheffield stopping service via Barnsley	05:54 Leeds to Sheffield withdrawn
Doncaster - Scunthorpe	Full-service withdrawal Rail replacement bus operating in lieu of scheduled service
Sheffield - Adwick	Mix of hourly and two hourly service
Huddersfield - Bradford	Reduced to 2-hourly
Huddersfield - Castleford	Full-service withdrawal Rail replacement bus
Harrogate Line peaks	Removes 06:23 & 17:39 deps and 07:49 & 09:50 arrivals into Leeds
Harrogate Line peaks	Removes 07:09, 08:41 and 18:46 arrivals and 07:14 and 17:09 departures from Leeds
Airedale Wharfedale Lines	Reduction of 14 passenger services through the day across all routes

That's Beeching-esque!!! Okay, I'm exaggerating, I often do. But the first service...I used the Leeds-Knottingley service a few years ago now and it was well used and hourly. So the withdrawal of 12 trains pretty much cuts it down to a parliamentary. Am I missing something?

 

[Peterthegreat]

That's Beeching-esque!!! Okay, I'm exaggerating, I often do. But the first service...I used the Leeds-Knottingley service a few years ago now and it was well used and hourly. So the withdrawal of 12 trains pretty much cuts it down to a parliamentary. Am I missing something?

Times appear to be (not) on RTT so you can check what is/isn't running.

 

[northernchris]

Not ideal, but looking at the east side changes it should remove a minimum of 10 DMUs so would expect the Knottingley's and Halifax - Hull to be all 4 car. Presumably those lines which are seeing a complete withdrawal will return relatively quickly to prevent route knowledge expiring

 

[_toommm_]

Not ideal, but looking at the east side changes it should remove a minimum of 10 DMUs so would expect the Knottingley's and Halifax - Hull to be all 4 car. Presumably those lines which are seeing a complete withdrawal will return relatively quickly to prevent route knowledge expiring

Can Hull do four carriages? The TPE services that call at South Milford and Howden have to be a single 185 (three carriages) due to platform lengths. As Northern don’t have SDO/ASDO on the trains that operate the Hull services, surely they can’t double up the units?

 

[Watershed]

The TPE services that call at South Milford and Howden have to be a single 185 (three carriages) due to platform lengths.

With the advent of C-ASDO, that's no longer the case. For example, the 07:05 off Hull calls at Howden and is booked to be a double set.

 

[Peterthegreat]

I have had a bit of time to look at some of the changes. On the Sheffield to Doncaster route it would appear every third train has been chopped regardless of the consequences. EG no service from Rotherham/Swinton/Mexborough/Conisbrough arriving in Doncaster between 0745 and 0945 - how are people supposed to get to work? 17.05 Sheffield to Doncaster cancelled. When I used this a couple of weeks ago it was full and standing. There are many other examples. This is not sensible pruning at the edges. It is blatant stupidity by an incompetent organisation,

 

[NoMorePacers]

Can Hull do four carriages? The TPE services that call at South Milford and Howden have to be a single 185 (three carriages) due to platform lengths. As Northern don’t have SDO/ASDO on the trains that operate the Hull services, surely they can’t double up the units?

Howden can take 5 coaches, South Milford 4 (I think). Northern regularly run doubled up units on Hull-Halifax services already so it isn't an issue.

 

[_toommm_]

Howden can take 5 coaches, South Milford 4 (I think). Northern regularly run doubled up units on Hull-Halifax services already so it isn't an issue.

Ah, interesting. I was under the impression that at least one of those stations was only three coaches, and that's why TPE only ran single 185s when they called at those stations.

 

[Halish Railway]

Interesting about the cuts to the Shipley lines, looking at RTT yesterday (23/12/21) I couldn’t find any cancellations, although I am aware that there have been a few train crew shortages in the past few days so maybe Northern are anticipating that things are going to get worse.

 

[northernchris]

I have had a bit of time to look at some of the changes. On the Sheffield to Doncaster route it would appear every third train has been chopped regardless of the consequences. EG no service from Rotherham/Swinton/Mexborough/Conisbrough arriving in Doncaster between 0745 and 0945 - how are people supposed to get to work? 17.05 Sheffield to Doncaster cancelled. When I used this a couple of weeks ago it was full and standing. There are many other examples. This is not sensible pruning at the edges. It is blatant stupidity by an incompetent organisation,

That is disappointing, and the unit that is saved really ought to be used strengthening one of the 2 remaining diagrams. I'm aware bus companies are also having issues with driver availability, but you would think Northern would have made the effort to get rail tickets accepted on local buses

It does make you wonder when they have decided to make these changes if any thought has gone in to how busy the affected trains are, what alternative services are available, could extra stops be added to existing services without screwing up the timetable etc. Or is it just a case of removing traincrew diagrams to make it easier to restore the services once more crew are available

 

[Peterthegreat]

That is disappointing, and the unit that is saved really ought to be used strengthening one of the 2 remaining diagrams. I'm aware bus companies are also having issues with driver availability, but you would think Northern would have made the effort to get rail tickets accepted on local buses

It does make you wonder when they have decided to make these changes if any thought has gone in to how busy the affected trains are, what alternative services are available, could extra stops be added to existing services without screwing up the timetable etc. Or is it just a case of removing traincrew diagrams to make it easier to restore the services once more crew are available

It looks like they have removed every third train on the Leeds to Knottingley service too, again regardless of consequences. As far as I can tell service reductions in the north west have not yet been input into the TSDB.

 

[Falcon1200]

I don’t like this ”mix of hourly and 2 hourly” thing. Why can’t we just incorporate slower services into faster services to save crews, money and whatever else?

Which on the face of it sounds sensible, but can create whole new issues; If a stopping service is not fully withdrawn only some fast trains would require extra stops, causing confusion, and extending journey times with special stops causes issues with turnround time at destination for sets and crews. This is, most certainly, a desperate situation however.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Which on the face of it sounds sensible, but can create whole new issues; If a stopping service is not fully withdrawn only some fast trains would require extra stops, causing confusion, and extending journey times with special stops causes issues with turnround time at destination for sets and crews. This is, most certainly, a desperate situation however.

I agree turnround times may be an issue but don't accept confusion would be any greater than that caused by a mix of hourly and two hourly stopping trains.

 

[YorksLad12]

That said, if we aren't going to get the "fast" path via Westgate for the Nottingham - Leeds service (that Arriva promised) then at least running it onto the Dearne Valley stopper would allow it to be extended to three/four coaches (rather than the current capacity limitation due to the need to share platform seventeen at Leeds with the Castleford services) - it'd add ten minutes to the Nottingham - Leeds journey times but I could argue that the capacity increase would be more important than the journey time (the existing Sheffield - Barnsley - Leeds service could remain as a two coach 158, just not running through to Nottingham)

Drifting off topic slightly but that works for me, even with the time penalty, if we keep the semi-fasts via Barnsley as well once things return more to normal; though the point was to speed up Leeds-Nottingham journey times. The arrival and departure times at Sheffield match up, near enough.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or is it just a case of removing traincrew diagrams to make it easier to restore the services once more crew are available

It seems quite obvious that it is that one.

 

[backontrack]

moderator note : split from

When will Castleford - Wakefield - Huddersfield services be fully restored?

Before covid this service was a direct hourly service. During the lockdown understandably the service was reduced. However since things began opening up again, virtually all lines have returned to some sort of normal service, however this route hasnt. There are i believe 2-3 direct trains a day...

www.railforums.co.uk

Few more trains biting the dust from the 4th of January on the east

Leeds - Knottingley	12 passenger services withdrawn
Hull - Halifax	Service reduced to a two hourly pattern
Sheffield - Gainsborough	Service withdrawn
Sheffield – Cleethorpes (Saturday only)	Service withdrawn
Sheffield - York	Full-service withdrawal (6 passenger services) Rail replacement bus operating Moorthorpe to York
Leeds - Sheffield stopping service via Barnsley	05:54 Leeds to Sheffield withdrawn
Doncaster - Scunthorpe	Full-service withdrawal Rail replacement bus operating in lieu of scheduled service
Sheffield - Adwick	Mix of hourly and two hourly service
Huddersfield - Bradford	Reduced to 2-hourly
Huddersfield - Castleford	Full-service withdrawal Rail replacement bus
Harrogate Line peaks	Removes 06:23 & 17:39 deps and 07:49 & 09:50 arrivals into Leeds
Harrogate Line peaks	Removes 07:09, 08:41 and 18:46 arrivals and 07:14 and 17:09 departures from Leeds
Airedale Wharfedale Lines	Reduction of 14 passenger services through the day across all routes

Does this mean Pontefract Baghill, Brigg, Kirton Lindsey and Gainsborough Central are closing? And Crowle and Althorpe going to limited-service TPExpress only?