Northern Service Reductions from 4th Jan 2022

[william]

Yes for Leeds-Knottingley via Kirkgate, no for Leeds-Knottingley via Westgate (I think it uses 10 to 13).


But then it wouldn't be running off P17, because it would be running via Westgate. That still doesn't solve the P17 problem though as you'd still need to fit in the Sheffield via Castleford stopper and the Leeds-Barnsley-Sheffield-Lincoln semi-fast at the bottom of the hour.

It's a cracker... and shows just how difficult it is to reduce service or crew levels and maintain a sensible service.

Two Leeds-Knottingley routes via Wakefield - one via Kirkgate and one via Westgate? How intriguing, do tell me more.....

 

[Deerfold]

It does seem odd that these announcements come at the same time as Northern is publicising extra services on another route.

Northern rolls out extra services between Leeds, Harrogate and York

The extra services will see two trains per hour run between Leeds, Harrogate and York and will bring Northern passengers with greater choice

www.railadvent.co.uk

 

[Esker-pades]

It does seem odd that these announcements come at the same time as Northern is publicising extra services on another route.

Northern rolls out extra services between Leeds, Harrogate and York

The extra services will see two trains per hour run between Leeds, Harrogate and York and will bring Northern passengers with greater choice

www.railadvent.co.uk

The Dec '21 timetable was written several months ago when Omicron didn't exist.

There might be an argument to say that these additions should be reversed before other services are cut. I don't know enough to comment why though.

 

[william]

I'll take a pure guess and say the Harrogate line makes more money than the commuter lines to the south/east.

 

[tbtc]

Yes for Leeds-Knottingley via Kirkgate, no for Leeds-Knottingley via Westgate (I think it uses 10 to 13).


But then it wouldn't be running off P17, because it would be running via Westgate. That still doesn't solve the P17 problem though as you'd still need to fit in the Sheffield via Castleford stopper and the Leeds-Barnsley-Sheffield-Lincoln semi-fast at the bottom of the hour.

It's a cracker... and shows just how difficult it is to reduce service or crew levels and maintain a sensible service.

I thought that the services ran Leeds (17) - Castleford - Knottingley - Kirkgate - Westgate - Leeds (13), i.e. the whole thing is determined by the space at seventeen (I could be wrong though)

This probably gives me another excuse to suggest we run the Woodlesford corridor as a half hourly diagram of Sheffield - Barnsley Kirkgate - Leeds - Castleford - Pontefract - Knottingley so that the service could be three/four coaches long since the inbound ex-Sheffield service departed within ten minutes towards Knottingley and vice versa (call it a four hour round trip to be on the safe side and avoid clashing at Leeds - that's not short but is still comparable to some Northern routes) - keep things simple, keep things reliable (with the usual proviso about how to replace the Sheffield - Castleford bit of the current service)

 

[william]

No idea. When I used that corridor regularly, it was Leeds - Castleford - Knottingley and Kirkgate - Knottingley as separate services.

I knew they'd extended to latter to carry onto Westgate and Leeds but didn't know it ran as one train throughout.

 

[robbeech]

if they can do without a train for so long.

They don’t have a choice.
I don’t expect the electricity suppliers in the North East have just said to those who were without power for 4 weeks…. Well, I’m not sure why we supply you with electricity at all if you can manage this long.

The Sh@t is about to hit the fan.

Northern MUST be held to account

I admire your enthusiasm but Northern will do as they please and there isn’t an organisation that has the clout to stop them.

The Lincoln service was recently re-extended to Leeds giving Barnsley a service almost identical to that pre-Covid.

A fairly substantial number of these have not run at all and many more have not run Between Sheffield and Leeds. I suspect we will see that scrapped too.


Northern need to reduce services so they can provide staff for as many as possible. It’s not ideal, Infact it’s beyond appalling for many passengers but it’s better to plan for this than let people down last minute which is one of their party pieces.

The trouble is, aside from all this they will still let people down because even though this is planned in advance they won’t utilise the spare rolling stock to meet capacity needs (or even if not for capacity needs, to give passengers a bit extra space on board), nor will they help passengers with tickets already purchased for trains that don’t exist, nor will they replace some of these services when the situation improves.

 

[YorksLad12]

I thought that the services ran Leeds (17) - Castleford - Knottingley - Kirkgate - Westgate - Leeds (13), i.e. the whole thing is determined by the space at seventeen (I could be wrong though)

I thought is was just the way things worked out! Leeds-Castleford-Knottingley-Wakefield K then being extended via Westgate to Leeds (not calling at Outwood) meant you could do the circuit with only a small layover at Knottingley. Serendipity, as much as anything.

No idea. When I used that corridor regularly, it was Leeds - Castleford - Knottingley and Kirkgate - Knottingley as separate services.

I knew they'd extended to latter to carry onto Westgate and Leeds but didn't know it ran as one train throughout.

Sometimes it doesn't, according to RTT; but I think the in-coming unit from Castleford usually forms the out-going one via Featherstone, which now runs to Leeds via Westgate. Hence also the Huddersfield-Kirkgate-Westgate service being cut back to Kirkgate, then extended to Castleford, and now withdrawn... which brings us back on topic (I hope).

 

[Killingworth]

They don’t have a choice.
I don’t expect the electricity suppliers in the North East have just said to those who were without power for 4 weeks…. Well, I’m not sure why we supply you with electricity at all if you can manage this long.


I admire your enthusiasm but Northern will do as they please and there isn’t an organisation that has the clout to stop them.


A fairly substantial number of these have not run at all and many more have not run Between Sheffield and Leeds. I suspect we will see that scrapped too.


Northern need to reduce services so they can provide staff for as many as possible. It’s not ideal, Infact it’s beyond appalling for many passengers but it’s better to plan for this than let people down last minute which is one of their party pieces.

The trouble is, aside from all this they will still let people down because even though this is planned in advance they won’t utilise the spare rolling stock to meet capacity needs (or even if not for capacity needs, to give passengers a bit extra space on board), nor will they help passengers with tickets already purchased for trains that don’t exist, nor will they replace some of these services when the situation improves.

Let's wait and see - because we have little option. It should be noted that little said here will have much direct bearing on what happens next. The combination of regular user groups from TfGM down to the smallest stations will have a small effect. COVID progress and hard economics will have a lot more. Potential passenger numbers and fares paid will figure large in the outcomes.

 

[tbtc]

The combination of regular user groups from TfGM down to the smallest stations will have a small effect. COVID progress and hard economics will have a lot more. Potential passenger numbers and fares paid will figure large in the outcomes.

Good point - I fear that we are going to have some arguments on here when the situation starts to improve and Northern start to fill some of the gaps, e.g. if there's one staff/units to reinstate one diagram then do you fill the gap on something like the Sheffield - Doncaster stopper so that there are three trains to run three diagrams and not any long waits, or do you use the resources to reinstate the Sheffield - Pontefract - York service?

Is it more important to give everywhere "some" service or to focus more on providing a properly useful service on certain lines instead of providing a poor service on several lines? Do some places continue to have annoying gaps on a Saturday so that we can reinstate the Brigg service instead? That kind of thing... no easy answers - depends on what your local station is! Snaith or Swinton? Kirkton Lindsey or Knottingley?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Let's wait and see - because we have little option. It should be noted that little said here will have much direct bearing on what happens next. The combination of regular user groups from TfGM down to the smallest stations will have a small effect. COVID progress and hard economics will have a lot more. Potential passenger numbers and fares paid will figure large in the outcomes.

Covid issues will eventually sort themselves out. Services reductions/removals may never.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Good point - I fear that we are going to have some arguments on here when the situation starts to improve and Northern start to fill some of the gaps, e.g. if there's one staff/units to reinstate one diagram then do you fill the gap on something like the Sheffield - Doncaster stopper so that there are three trains to run three diagrams and not any long waits, or do you use the resources to reinstate the Sheffield - Pontefract - York service?

Is it more important to give everywhere "some" service or to focus more on providing a properly useful service on certain lines instead of providing a poor service on several lines? Do some places continue to have annoying gaps on a Saturday so that we can reinstate the Brigg service instead? That kind of thing... no easy answers - depends on what your local station is! Snaith or Swinton? Kirkton Lindsey or Knottingley?

Given that Swinton has twice the number of passengers than the other three combined the answer should be obvious. Add in Rotherham and you get almost ten times the number.

 

[tbtc]

Given that Swinton has twice the number of passengers than the other three combined the answer should be obvious. Add in Rotherham and you get almost ten times the number.

I'd rather that we focussed what resources we have on the busier routes and ensure that there's a proper frequency to stations like Swinton/ Rotherham, but there are going to be a few on here who'll campaign for tiny villages to have "some" service instead (even if it means two hour gaps on routes like Rotherham to Doncaster)

 

[josla1]

Absolutely ludicrous Liverpool - Manchester Airport fast is removed yet again. A popular service which is always the first to be cut. It’s the same emergency timetable as last year when we went in to lockdown 3. Yet this time I think this will backfire immensely. Overcrowding will be a chronic problem on routes that have a reduced ‘service’. Absolutely shambolic.

 

[Peterthegreat]

I'd rather that we focussed what resources we have on the busier routes and ensure that there's a proper frequency to stations like Swinton/ Rotherham, but there are going to be a few on here who'll campaign for tiny villages to have "some" service instead (even if it means two hour gaps on routes like Rotherham to Doncaster)

Totally with you on that. If Northern are short of staff I have no issues with the, hopefully temporary, withdrawal of services on the S & K and the Brigg line, particularly if buses are provided. The reduction to two trains per three hours on the stoppers is a disaster. It would make far more sense to thin out the Leeds to Sheffield via Dearne service. Towns in west Yorkshire would still have the Doncaster to Leeds electric service every hour, passenger numbers at Bolton, Thurnscoe and Goldthorpe cpmbined are less than Mexborough.
The Adwick extension should also be binned. This would allow the Sheffield to Doncaster service to be operated by fewer units and staff. The numbers between Doncaster and Adwick are pitiful at the best of times. There would still be the hourly Doncaster to Leeds stopper serving Adwick and Bentley.

 

[IanXC]

The Adwick extension should also be binned. This would allow the Sheffield to Doncaster service to be operated by fewer units and staff. The numbers between Doncaster and Adwick are pitiful at the best of times. There would still be the hourly Doncaster to Leeds stopper serving Adwick and Bentley.

The available path for a Sheffield to Doncaster stopper and a Sheffield to Adwick stopper miss each service back the other way by between 5 and 10 minutes. So you can't 'save' a unit or a crew by only operating Sheffield - Doncaster.

If platform 5 at Doncaster could be made available you could perhaps run the usual Sheffield - Adwick terminating at Doncaster in one direction and the usual Sheffield - Doncaster in the other. That would however make for an odd pattern in combination with the Sheffield to Leeds via Swinton service.

 

[Peterthegreat]

The available path for a Sheffield to Doncaster stopper and a Sheffield to Adwick stopper miss each service back the other way by between 5 and 10 minutes. So you can't 'save' a unit or a crew by only operating Sheffield - Doncaster.

If platform 5 at Doncaster could be made available you could perhaps run the usual Sheffield - Adwick terminating at Doncaster in one direction and the usual Sheffield - Doncaster in the other. That would however make for an odd pattern in combination with the Sheffield to Leeds via Swinton service.

Two things here
1) the train from Sheffield, arriving at xx.46 ish would return at xx.05 (the other, unused, path). It would then arrive in Sheffield at xx.45 to return as now at xx.05. Set and crew saved.
2) The relationship with the Leeds service is irrelevant.

 

[IanXC]

Two things here
1) the train from Sheffield, arriving at xx.46 ish would return at xx.05 (the other, unused, path). It would then arrive in Sheffield at xx.45 to return as now at xx.05. Set and crew saved.
2) The relationship with the Leeds service is irrelevant.

1) there must be some reason that the amended timetables during the pandemic have been the Sheffield - Doncaster (which incidentally goes empty to Adwick anyway) or the Sheffield - Adwick and never a mixture before.
2) only irrelevant if you're not interested in journeys to/from Rotherham Central and Swinton.

All this assumes that platform 5 can be made available, which it currently cannot.

 

[Peterthegreat]

1) there must be some reason that the amended timetables during the pandemic have been the Sheffield - Doncaster (which incidentally goes empty to Adwick anyway) or the Sheffield - Adwick and never a mixture before.
2) only irrelevant if you're not interested in journeys to/from Rotherham Central and Swinton.

All this assumes that platform 5 can be made available, which it currently cannot.

1) No it doesn't require p5. P8 is available xx.47 to xx.15.
2) Currently Leeds and Doncaster services are about ten minutes apart at Swinton so I don't see your point.

 

[Killingworth]

Absolutely ludicrous Liverpool - Manchester Airport fast is removed yet again. A popular service which is always the first to be cut. It’s the same emergency timetable as last year when we went in to lockdown 3. Yet this time I think this will backfire immensely. Overcrowding will be a chronic problem on routes that have a reduced ‘service’. Absolutely shambolic.

Same timetable as last time because in a developing situation it was to hand. To plan another takes longer than the effects of the virus are taking to spread. Services can't be run with crews in isolation.

Now I might think there's a degree of over reaction, but it's far better to play safe and be able to restore services earlier than having random cancellations anywhere and everywhere.

 

[daodao]

Covid issues will eventually sort themselves out. Services reductions/removals may never.

I agree. The same is true of East Midlands services where cuts enacted over 6 months ago seem unlikely to be reversed.

Some of these routes are likely to remain with a "parliamentary" service or none at all for the long term. The "temporary" cuts to several Northern services in the early 1990s, e.g. on the Retford-Cleethorpes/Nunthorpe-Whitby/Knottingley-Goole lines were never reversed.

Cuts of this magnitude make services unusable for many practical purposes and when residual usage is reviewed, the routes stand in poor light when a permanent axe is considered, as it undoubtedly will be given the current dire state of the British economy.

 

[Ken H]

Above, some are saying that on lines that have had services cut should have extra cars on the remaining services. But maybe the staff shortage is also affecting depots so there are not the serviceable units to strengthen.

 

[YorksLad12]

Some of these routes are likely to remain with a "parliamentary" service or none at all for the long term. The "temporary" cuts to several Northern services in the early 1990s, e.g. on the Retford-Cleethorpes/Nunthorpe-Whitby/Knottingley-Goole lines were never reversed.

To be fair on Knottingley-Goole: there isn't much between Knottingley and Goole except a few villages, four stations with small car parks and level crossings. You might get some end-to-end business, especially of there are problems on the direct route to Hull (because you could change at Goole for Hull) but unless someone builds a P&R site it's never going to see much beyond commuting traffic... and there might be better bus services for that.

I've said before, an hourly shuttle service (single unit - heck, even a 153!) between Knottingley and Goole (with or without intermediate stops), to see if there's demand, might work but would cost a unit, crew(s) and just not be worth it.

Up until May 1977 there were six trips from Leeds to Goole; six from Goole to Leeds.
In September 1990 there were only four trips from Leeds to Goole; five from Goole to Leeds.
In December 2016 there were two trips from Leeds to Goole (morning and evening peak) and one from Goole to Leeds (formed from the evening peak arrival).

 

[gnolife]

In December 2016 there were two trips from Leeds to Goole (morning and evening peak) and one from Goole to Leeds (formed from the evening peak arrival).

Was it not the other way around - 2x Goole to Leeds and 1x Leeds to Goole?

 

[YorksLad12]

Was it not the other way around - 2x Goole to Leeds and 1x Leeds to Goole?

Not according to the timetable book I have. Mind you, I always thought it was one morning service to Leeds, two evening services towards Goole. The bigger question is, is it still able to run - wasn't the line cut almost two years ago? If so, that gives it a chance of least returning to what it was recently, if not to what it was in the 1970s. But there will be other services to restore before this one, east and west.

 

[Starmill]

Not according to the timetable book I have. Mind you, I always thought it was one morning service to Leeds, two evening services towards Goole. The bigger question is, is it still able to run - wasn't the line cut almost two years ago? If so, that gives it a chance of least returning to what it was recently, if not to what it was in the 1970s. But there will be other services to restore before this one, east and west.

It has been running for months.

It's as Gnolife suggested, a single trip to Leeds in the morning and a round trip from Leeds to Goole and back in the afternoon. Indeed all three services ran on Christmas Eve.

 

[northernchris]

Sometimes it doesn't, according to RTT; but I think the in-coming unit from Castleford usually forms the out-going one via Featherstone, which now runs to Leeds via Westgate. Hence also the Huddersfield-Kirkgate-Westgate service being cut back to Kirkgate, then extended to Castleford, and now withdrawn... which brings us back on topic (I hope).

The arrival via Castleford departs back to Knottingley via Castleford, so the majority of these services use platform 17. There is a Saturday all day diagram (the one which is partly removed come January) and a couple of afternoon services which are booked 4 carriages so use platform 15 instead

Northern need to reduce services so they can provide staff for as many as possible. It’s not ideal, Infact it’s beyond appalling for many passengers but it’s better to plan for this than let people down last minute which is one of their party pieces.

The trouble is, aside from all this they will still let people down because even though this is planned in advance they won’t utilise the spare rolling stock to meet capacity needs (or even if not for capacity needs, to give passengers a bit extra space on board), nor will they help passengers with tickets already purchased for trains that don’t exist, nor will they replace some of these services when the situation improves.

Completely agree - it's clear many industries are et for a tough tart to 2022 with staff illness and isolations, so planning on the basis of higher than usual sickness is wise. However, every effort should be maintained to keep capacity as close as possible to the planned December 2021 timetable - 2 carriage trains on a reduced timetable really need to be a last resort. Earlier this year when things started to reopen the Calder Valley route retained 1 train per hour between Leeds and Halifax and the amount of times it was a rammed 2 car 195 was unbelievable, so I have little confidence the freed up units will be redeployed

 

[william]

Not according to the timetable book I have. Mind you, I always thought it was one morning service to Leeds, two evening services towards Goole. The bigger question is, is it still able to run - wasn't the line cut almost two years ago? If so, that gives it a chance of least returning to what it was recently, if not to what it was in the 1970s. But there will be other services to restore before this one, east and west.

Aye, I can vouch for this. It made it impossible to do a return trip to the city of Goole :P

 

[Bletchleyite]

Covid issues will eventually sort themselves out. Services reductions/removals may never.

Possibly true. But we are into "lesser evil" territory here, as if there are not planned cancellations then there will be random ones, and on a low frequency system like Northern that renders it entirely useless.

Are replacements to be operated for those routes where service is withdrawn entirely? While I appreciate they may be hard to arrange, a taxi would do from several of them and those are not as scarce.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Possibly true. But we are into "lesser evil" territory here, as if there are not planned cancellations then there will be random ones, and on a low frequency system like Northern that renders it entirely useless.

But then they must be temporary until staff are available and nothing else.