Northern Service Reductions from 4th Jan 2022

[Horizon22]

This is not sensible pruning at the edges. It is blatant stupidity by an incompetent organisation,

Which is essentially the DfT in Northern's case. They've cleared remove diagrams but without thinking of some specific consequences as you mention.

 

[backontrack]

That's Beeching-esque!!! Okay, I'm exaggerating, I often do. But the first service...I used the Leeds-Knottingley service a few years ago now and it was well used and hourly. So the withdrawal of 12 trains pretty much cuts it down to a parliamentary. Am I missing something?

I suppose so, in that those trains alternate between Leeds-Castleford-Knottingley and Leeds-Wakefield-Knottingley. I'm guessing each service will be halved in frequency.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Does this mean Pontefract Baghill, Brigg, Kirton Lindsey and Gainsborough Central are closing? And Crowle and Althorpe going to limited-service TPExpress only?

For at least 6 weeks. And don't forget Thorne South.

 

[backontrack]

I think it really depends on how long these changes are expected to last. IMHO a bit of lateral thinking wouldn't go amiss. Instead of running all the stopping services through to Adwick (usually with single figure passengers) why not terminate every other train at Doncaster and run the other train through to Scunthorpe via Adwick and Skellow?

Because of course they can't do that! It's sensible!

For at least 6 weeks. And don't forget Thorne South.

Oh dear.

I think they'll stay mothballed for good.

 

[Peterthegreat]

It seems quite obvious that it is that one.

That is not (totally) the case. On the whole train crew do not stick on the same route all day. After, say, a trip Sheffield to Adwick and back they are as likely to do a trip to Leeds, Huddersfield or Lincoln (or have a break).

 

[YorksLad12]

Just to echo a question from upthread: where is this information available for the public? It's not on Northern's website, that I can see.

 

[Watershed]

Because of course they can't do that! It's sensible!

No, because that requires a lot of work to validate that it all works, otherwise you will end up with delays all over the shop. It couldn't possibly be done in time.

The 'quick and dirty' solution is to simply outright cancel services, though obviously this can have a serious impact on frequencies and flows.

I think they'll stay mothballed for good.

I think that is very unlikely given the calcified way the industry operates.

However, the fact that leaving stations without a train service for 6 weeks is seen as acceptable should raise questions about what the point of keeping these stations open at all is, if they can do without a train for so long.

Just to echo a question from upthread: where is this information available for the public? It's not on Northern's website, that I can see.

It's from an internal brief.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Just to echo a question from upthread: where is this information available for the public? It's not on Northern's website, that I can see.

No it is not. However some information is available on the on line journey planners. Perhaps they will release the information tonight and hope it gets lost over Christmas.

No, because that requires a lot of work to validate that it all works, otherwise you will end up with delays all over the shop. It couldn't possibly be done in time.

The 'quick and dirty' solution is to simply outright cancel services, though obviously this can have a serious impact on frequencies and flows.


I think that is very unlikely given the calcified way the industry operates.

However, the fact that leaving stations without a train service for 6 weeks is seen as acceptable should raise questions about what the point of keeping these stations open at all is, if they can do without a train for so long.


It's from an internal brief.

It is NOT acceptable to leave a station without a service for six weeks. At the moment not many people know about it. The Sh@t is about to hit the fan.

Northern MUST be held to account

1) What assumptions are they making about train crew availability?
2) What criteria have they used to make these decisions?
3) What other options were considered?
4) What measures have been taken to mitigate the worst cases of passenger inconvenience?
5) Who have they consulted over these changes?

I agree Northern are in a bad position but I don't totally agree with your first paragraph. People's livelihoods are at stake here. There are a number of things that could be done to mitigate some of them. Northern can't be bothered.

 

[Killingworth]

A considerable amount of work has clearly gone into this further range of emergency timetables. I received emails just after 4pm yesterday from both East and west sides but didn't open until this morning. Hope Valley seems to have done better than most. However, leaving Sheffield for Dore it's the bus or walk if the 12.14 is missed. The13.14 doesn't stop, 14.14 is cancelled and next is 15.46. So much for an hourly service.

We live in challenging times. I'm sure those who have arranged this have done as well as they could in the short time available. There are bound to be rough edges. Hopefully these cuts can be restored fairly quickly. If they're not how can we expect people to give up using their cars for public transport? Pandemics, weather, incidents, strikes, it's quite a miracle so many trains do run and most almost to time.

Roll on a more ordered 2022.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I suspect this is just the beginning of the cuts.

I know TPE are drawing up a reduced timetable to take effect in January "until further notice".

An informed source told me the other week that the DfT has ordered all TOCS to draw up plans for reduced service levels to both a) ensure that timetables match the number of available staff taking in to account delayed training, vacancies, etc and b) reduce costs, i.e. by not relying on expensive rest day working agreements.

There does seem to a keenness to run fewer, but longer, trains in many areas.

How long these reductions last remains to be seen, but the posters up thread who say Northern should be held to account and are incompetent should bear in mind that the DfT will almost certainly be 100% behind, possinly even pushing, for these reductions.

 

[Peterthegreat]

A considerable amount of work has clearly gone into this further range of emergency timetables. I received emails just after 4pm yesterday from both East and west sides but didn't open until this morning. Hope Valley seems to have done better than most. However, leaving Sheffield for Dore it's the bus or walk if the 12.14 is missed. The13.14 doesn't stop, 14.14 is cancelled and next is 15.46. So much for an hourly service.

We live in challenging times. I'm sure those who have arranged this have done as well as they could in the short time available. There are bound to be rough edges. Hopefully these cuts can be restored fairly quickly. If they're not how can we expect people to give up using their cars for public transport? Pandemics, weather, incidents, strikes, it's quite a miracle so many trains do run and most almost to time.

Roll on a more ordered 2022.

I agree a lot of work will have gone in to doing new set and crew diagrams but not a lot of work appears to have gone in to assessing the effects of the changes. I really don't understand why Northern have such a hatred for the stopping service between Sheffield and Doncaster. The service was cut from half hourly to hourly and now it is being cut again. That is about a 66% reduction in total. Rotherham and Swinton combined have as many passengers as Barnsley. The Lincoln service was recently re-extended to Leeds giving Barnsley a service almost identical to that pre-Covid. It would make far more sense to return to the pre-December service and use the crews to maintain am hourly Sheffield to Doncaster service. Barnsley would still have 3 trains per hour to Sheffield and two to Leeds.

I suspect this is just the beginning of the cuts.

I know TPE are drawing up a reduced timetable to take effect in January "until further notice".

An informed source told me the other week that the DfT has ordered all TOCS to draw up plans for reduced service levels to both a) ensure that timetables match the number of available staff taking in to account delayed training, vacancies, etc and b) reduce costs, i.e. by not relying on expensive rest day working agreements.

There does seem to a keenness to run fewer, but longer, trains in many areas.

How long these reductions last remains to be seen, but the posters up thread who say Northern should be held to account and are incompetent should bear in mind that the DfT will almost certainly be 100% behind, possinly even pushing, for these reductions.

I agree with your assessment that the DfT are involved. However that does not mean Northern shouldn't be excused from explaining how they came to make the changes they are making. Withdrawing a service which is regularly full and standing seems incompetent to me.
I suspect with a carefully orchestrated response from Labour this will heap more pressure on Johnson. Reverse Beeching but cut existing services, level up the north but reduce their transport, cut carbon emissions whilst forcing people on to private transport.

 

[backontrack]

Northern MUST be held to account.

There's a solution here. If the TOC is unable to fulfil its operational obligations, then the DfT must strip it of the franchise and step in as the operator of last resor-

Oh.

 

[Killingworth]

There's a solution here. If the TOC is unable to fulfil its operational obligations, then the DfT must strip it of the franchise and step in as the operator of last resor-

Oh.

Or maybe the Operator of Last Resort has decided to resort to throwing in the towel in the face of forces beyond its control. It all goes to show how incredibly difficult it is to provide a good railway service at the best of times, let alone when overlapping outside forces conspire with existing shortcomings. Nationalised, franchised or otherwise privatised it make little practical difference, certainly in the short term.

 

[ChrisC]

I suspect this is just the beginning of the cuts.

I know TPE are drawing up a reduced timetable to take effect in January "until further notice".

An informed source told me the other week that the DfT has ordered all TOCS to draw up plans for reduced service levels to both a) ensure that timetables match the number of available staff taking in to account delayed training, vacancies, etc and b) reduce costs, i.e. by not relying on expensive rest day working agreements.

There does seem to a keenness to run fewer, but longer, trains in many areas.

How long these reductions last remains to be seen, but the posters up thread who say Northern should be held to account and are incompetent should bear in mind that the DfT will almost certainly be 100% behind, possinly even pushing, for these reductions.

I’m not in favour of the cuts to services being made by Northern in January but is this any different to the cuts made by EMR way back in June? The EMR temporary timetables were expected by many to only last until September but that was not the case. Many of the missing trains were eventually restored to the timetable in December after 6 months, but not all. Stations between Nottingham and Mansfield are still only getting an hourly service instead of the previous half hourly service with no guarantee that this will even be restored in May. That is also the case with the through services between Matlock and Nottingham which haven’t been restored. Many stations especially between Nottingham, Derby and Crewe and the smaller stations between Nottingham and Lincoln had a greatly reduced service for nearly 6 months. As for running fewer but longer trains, with EMR, especially between Liverpool and Norwich, they ran both fewer and even shorter trains.

The problem is will these reduced timetables being introduced by Northern, and stations losing their train service altogether, really be for just 6 weeks.

 

[Starmill]

Are we missing something here?

Loads of these services were withdrawn during the previous emergency timetables issued during "lockdowns" in England from March 2020, during November 2020 and from January 2021.

It's not the first time this has happened. Next to nobody was travelling anywhere anyway.

I’m not in favour of the cuts to services being made by Northern in January but is this any different to the cuts made by EMR way back in June?

It's completely different. In the period of several months from June demand was at its highest levels since the onset of the pandemic. Demand is now expected to tank.

 

[Peterthegreat]

I’m not in favour of the cuts to services being made by Northern in January but is this any different to the cuts made by EMR way back in June? The EMR temporary timetables were expected by many to only last until September but that was not the case. Many of the missing trains were eventually restored to the timetable in December after 6 months, but not all. Stations between Nottingham and Mansfield are still only getting an hourly service instead of the previous half hourly service with no guarantee that this will even be restored in May. That is also the case with the through services between Matlock and Nottingham which haven’t been restored. Many stations especially between Nottingham, Derby and Crewe and the smaller stations between Nottingham and Lincoln had a greatly reduced service for nearly 6 months. As for running fewer but longer trains, with EMR, especially between Liverpool and Norwich, they ran both fewer and even shorter trains.

The problem is will these reduced timetables being introduced by Northern, and stations losing their train service altogether, really be for just 6 weeks.

I agree with your comments. However geographically the Northern franchise is much bigger. I would also expect much more political fallout.

 

[Starmill]

I agree with your assessment that the DfT are involved.

That's not hard, there's next to nothing they're not involved with in passenger railways in this country!

I would also expect much more political fallout.

The political fallout from ordering nightclubs closed and restricting other hospitality businesseses will far eclipse a reduced timetable on the trains.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Are we missing something here?

Loads of these services were withdrawn during the previous emergency timetables issued during "lockdowns" in England from March 2020, during November 2020 and from January 2021.

It's not the first time this has happened. Next to nobody was travelling anywhere anyway.


It's completely different. In the period of several months from June demand was at its highest levels since the onset of the pandemic. Demand is now expected to tank.

I think that is only partly true. And in any case we are no longer in lockdown,

 

[Starmill]

And in any case we are no longer in lockdown,

Not today. But this timetable is for January and February.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

People in this thread are really overreacting. These are temperary cuts due to mass crew shortages and significant reduction in passengers numbers recently. They are not permanent changes.

 

[js1000]

Thank god I no longer travel with Northern Trains. They can't keep a timetable for a month at a time at the moment.

 

[geoffk]

Not today. But this timetable is for January and February.

The UK Health Security Agency estimates that someone with Omicron is between 31% and 45% less likely to attend A&E and 50% to 70% less likely to be admitted to hospital than an individual with the Delta variant. So perhaps rail use will not be down to levels seen in January and February this year.

 

[Peterthegreat]

That's not hard, there's next to nothing they're not involved with in passenger railways in this country!


The political fallout from ordering nightclubs closed and restricting other hospitality businesseses will far eclipse a reduced timetable on the trains.

I don't agree. First of all there is currently no restrictions on hospitality or night clubs in England. Secondly the politicians who would kick up a fuss would be from the Tory Party. Thirdly this gives labour a cause celebre to further demonstrate the levelling up policy is in tatters. If people can no longer get to work that should be very worrying for the newly elected Northern Tories.

Not today. But this timetable is for January and February.

So do you know something we don't?

 

[northernchris]

It looks like they have removed every third train on the Leeds to Knottingley service too, again regardless of consequences. As far as I can tell service reductions in the north west have not yet been input into the TSDB.

Knottingley isn't quite as bad as I'd first imagined, it looks like there's 1 diagram missing until early afternoon, when a full service resumes, excluding a couple of the early evening services via Wakefield.

If this is planned to be longer than February it seems odd that the DfT would have signed off this timetable especially as they were some very busy trains over the summer on lines with a reduced service proving passenger numbers were increasing. Either way it would be good if Northern could acknowledge these changes

 

[Peterthegreat]

People in this thread are really overreacting. These are temperary cuts due to mass crew shortages and significant reduction in passengers numbers recently. They are not permanent changes.

The only think I agree with are crew shortages. Given that it is the holiday period and only recently has the work from home instruction been given it is too early to say what the effect will be. As stated in post 44 the EMR cuts were meant to be temporary. A number are still in place.

 

[Starmill]

First of all there is currently no restrictions on hospitality or night clubs in England.

Indeed there aren't today. Are you willing to place a bet that there will be no restrictions on any hospitality businesseses in England January or February? There will be in Northern Ireland, Wales, and Scotland.

But details are beside the point, it's only the effect on rail passenger demand that really matters. That's moving in a completely clear direction.

So do you know something we don't?

It's not exactly unpredictable is it.

The UK Health Security Agency estimates that someone with Omicron is between 31% and 45% less likely to attend A&E and 50% to 70% less likely to be admitted to hospital than an individual with the Delta variant. So perhaps rail use will not be down to levels seen in January and February this year.

It may not be as low as that, but it's mainly linked to why people are travelling not hospital data. If people are instructed to work at home and business restricted, demand will be far lower than on average over the past few months.

 

[tbtc]

Not ideal, but looking at the east side changes it should remove a minimum of 10 DMUs so would expect the Knottingley's and Halifax - Hull to be all 4 car

The problem with Knottingley is that you can only have a two coach train on it because it shares the platform (seventeen) at Leeds with the Sheffield services

Presumably those lines which are seeing a complete withdrawal will return relatively quickly to prevent route knowledge expiring

Good point re route learning

I have had a bit of time to look at some of the changes. On the Sheffield to Doncaster route it would appear every third train has been chopped regardless of the consequences. EG no service from Rotherham/Swinton/Mexborough/Conisbrough arriving in Doncaster between 0745 and 0945 - how are people supposed to get to work? 17.05 Sheffield to Doncaster cancelled. When I used this a couple of weeks ago it was full and standing. There are many other examples. This is not sensible pruning at the edges. It is blatant stupidity by an incompetent organisation,

If you only have the staff for two out of the three diagrams then how do you run a service without some two hour gaps?

It looks like they have removed every third train on the Leeds to Knottingley service too, again regardless of consequences

I'm sure they are aware of the consequences but they only have staff to run two out of three diagrams on some routes, so there are going to be consequences - don't confuse the fact that this is happening for the notion that the people doing the cuts are delighted to be doing so - but they recognise that they aren't able to operate 100% of services so have to do something

Drifting off topic slightly but that works for me, even with the time penalty, if we keep the semi-fasts via Barnsley as well once things return more to normal; though the point was to speed up Leeds-Nottingham journey times. The arrival and departure times at Sheffield match up, near enough.

I agree - there's something to be said for either but platform seventeen at Leeds is imposing a frustrating constraint on the capacity of the Nottingham trains

Which is essentially the DfT in Northern's case. They've cleared remove diagrams but without thinking of some specific consequences as you mention.

the posters up thread who say Northern should be held to account and are incompetent should bear in mind that the DfT will almost certainly be 100% behind, possinly even pushing, for these reductions.

This is all the DfT

We've had many years of people blaming "bus companies" for failing to live up to enthusiast wish lists (e.g. Arriva/ Serco/ Abellio being blamed for honouring the "no growth" contracts that they signed up to in 2004 for Northern/Wales/Borders), but now there's only the Government in charge, this is the nationalised railway, this is the public sector deciding which cuts to make - it may be that they are only doing so to deal with staffing numbers, it may be that they are doing so with an eye on reduced passenger numbers, it may be that they are doing so with an eye on saving taxpayers money by running fewer services that required subsidising, who knows, but this is 100% Government

Or maybe the Operator of Last Resort has decided to resort to throwing in the towel in the face of forces beyond its control. It all goes to show how incredibly difficult it is to provide a good railway service at the best of times, let alone when overlapping outside forces conspire with existing shortcomings. Nationalised, franchised or otherwise privatised it make little practical difference, certainly in the short term.

Agreed - it's a tough franchise to run and I don't think that Serco/ Abellio got enough credit for keeping the ship afloat during their era - people on the outside always thing it looks easy

 

[william]

The problem with Knottingley is that you can only have a two coach train on it because it shares the platform (seventeen) at Leeds with the Sheffield services



Good point re route learning



If you only have the staff for two out of the three diagrams then how do you run a service without some two hour gaps?



I'm sure they are aware of the consequences but they only have staff to run two out of three diagrams on some routes, so there are going to be consequences - don't confuse the fact that this is happening for the notion that the people doing the cuts are delighted to be doing so - but they recognise that they aren't able to operate 100% of services so have to do something



I agree - there's something to be said for either but platform seventeen at Leeds is imposing a frustrating constraint on the capacity of the Nottingham trains





This is all the DfT

We've had many years of people blaming "bus companies" for failing to live up to enthusiast wish lists (e.g. Arriva/ Serco/ Abellio being blamed for honouring the "no growth" contracts that they signed up to in 2004 for Northern/Wales/Borders), but now there's only the Government in charge, this is the nationalised railway, this is the public sector deciding which cuts to make - it may be that they are only doing so to deal with staffing numbers, it may be that they are doing so with an eye on reduced passenger numbers, it may be that they are doing so with an eye on saving taxpayers money by running fewer services that required subsidising, who knows, but this is 100% Government



Agreed - it's a tough franchise to run and I don't think that Serco/ Abellio got enough credit for keeping the ship afloat during their era - people on the outside always thing it looks easy

They should introduce a service just to transport people to platform 17 at Leeds.

 

[YorksLad12]

The problem with Knottingley is that you can only have a two coach train on it because it shares the platform (seventeen) at Leeds with the Sheffield services

Yes for Leeds-Knottingley via Kirkgate, no for Leeds-Knottingley via Westgate (I think it uses 10 to 13).

I agree - there's something to be said for either but platform seventeen at Leeds is imposing a frustrating constraint on the capacity of the Nottingham trains

But then it wouldn't be running off P17, because it would be running via Westgate. That still doesn't solve the P17 problem though as you'd still need to fit in the Sheffield via Castleford stopper and the Leeds-Barnsley-Sheffield-Lincoln semi-fast at the bottom of the hour.

It's a cracker... and shows just how difficult it is to reduce service or crew levels and maintain a sensible service.

 

[Killingworth]

It may help to inform the discussion if Northern's words accompanying these emergency timetables were also quoted. This is how the west version came to me but the words on east are identical apart from signatories and timetable information added, and they have already appeared in this thread ;

"Dear Stakeholder,

Service changes update

Over the festive period and into January we are operating several amended timetables across the Northern network due to the availability of train crew and major engineering work. We know how important this Christmas is to people and we are encouraging everyone to check before they travel.

Along with other operators, we are experiencing a higher than usual level of train crew absence related to COVID-19. This is despite measures to restrict the potential transmission and the recent change in self-isolation rules. While we do operate with additional staff, in these circumstances it is not possible to provide the resources to run every service and – in line with many other train companies – we have taken the difficult decision to reduce service levels on some routes.

Below you will find a summary table of the changes that will be in effect from 4 January. These will be reflected in new timetables which will be published on our website and in journey planning systems from the end of December onwards.

As with any timetable change, we are working closely with Network Rail and our aim is to ensure as much customer certainty as possible and minimise short notice cancellations. Given the inherent uncertainty of COVID-related absences however, we are also urging all customers to check before they travel as there may be some short-notice cancellations.

Online journey planners, including website and apps are being updated and we encourage customers to check nationalrail.co.uk for the latest journey information. For customers with advance tickets, if a train has been cancelled, they can travel on an earlier or later Northern service. On top of this, and to provide maximum flexibility for customers, until 31 March we are operating as part of the ‘Book with Confidence’ scheme which allows people to change travel plans up until the evening before departure without being charged a fee or cancel their trains completely and receive refunds in the form of rail vouchers.

We are also operating an amended timetable between 23 December and 3 January to allow for engineering work across the network. Further information can be found on our website."