Northern Station Improvements & New Ticket Machines

[pemma]

The new ticket machines are capable of becoming virtual ticket offices with a software update in the future. The idea being that if you want a ticket office service you can press a button and it will connect with someone you can see and can see you and you will be able to have a conversation as you would at a ticket office today. The person can then issue the ticket you require and take payment off the machine. Split ticketing, rovers and rangers would all be available. The cynic in me says it would then be a lot easier to close ticket offices in the future as a centrally manned call centre would be a lot cheaper and possibly out sourced. It would also require fewer staff as staff would be able to deal with multiple locations.

So does the video call button not do anything currently?

I suppose a 'virtual ticket office' has both advantages and disadvantages over a real one. Although, what exactly those are will depend how well the system is implemented.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For Rovers and Rangers, given that most users of those tickets know their validity and what they want, why can't they just be sold in a separate section of the machine with an A-Z index of the name of the ticket? No need to speak to anyone.

Similarly, PTE day tickets are well-known among their users and just need a button on a separate screen like the Germans do with Verbundkarten.

 

[pemma]

For Rovers and Rangers, given that most users of those tickets know their validity and what they want, why can't they just be sold in a separate section of the machine with an A-Z index of the name of the ticket? No need to speak to anyone.

Similarly, PTE day tickets are well-known among their users and just need a button on a separate screen like the Germans do with Verbundkarten.

The same could be said about split tickets as these new TVMs do not allow you to buy a ticket from other station.

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

The cynic in me says it would then be a lot easier to close ticket offices in the future as a centrally manned call centre would be a lot cheaper and possibly out sourced. It would also require fewer staff as staff would be able to deal with multiple locations.

My understanding, based on little snippets we've put out, is what we're aiming more for is the way banks work now - not so much to close ticket offices but to get people out from behind the glass screens helping people use TVMs, selling on a smart device or something like that. Contrary to what people believe, there's no grand dystopian conspiracy about removing all customer-facing staff from the railways. Even the people at the top who preach cost-cutting aren't so stupid to think customers would be happy with a railway that would work like that

 

[pemma]

Even the people at the top who preach cost-cutting aren't so stupid to think customers would be happy with a railway that would work like that

Indeed. Even Peter Wilkinson once said in an interview that replacing ticket checking staff with automated barriers could be false economy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My understanding, based on little snippets we've put out, is what we're aiming more for is the way banks work now - not so much to close ticket offices but to get people out from behind the glass screens helping people use TVMs, selling on a smart device or something like that. Contrary to what people believe, there's no grand dystopian conspiracy about removing all customer-facing staff from the railways. Even the people at the top who preach cost-cutting aren't so stupid to think customers would be happy with a railway that would work like that

But also taking into account that the proportion of advance bookings done via the Internet must be tending towards 100% and I would think likely to reach high 90s within 5-10 years if it's not already there.

Who books a flight by phone or at the airport in 2017?

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

Indeed. Even Peter Wilkinson once said in an interview that replacing ticket checking staff with automated barriers could be false economy.

Well quite. We're all still seeing the effects of cost-cutting in the 60s, 70s and 80s - line closures, singling, destaffing, Pacers. Of course there will always be people who never learn from history, or think they can somehow do it differently and better, but I think we're also a little more enlightened these days. If there is austerity, it won't hit the customer-facing side

 

[pemma]

Who books a flight by phone or at the airport in 2017?

I would have thought booking at the airport was never common except in exceptional circumstances e.g. Channel Tunnel being closed or ferry services being cancelled but if a passenger has missed check in and needs to arrange an alternative or if a flight has been cancelled and there's a number of passengers needing to look at alternatives it might be easiest to sort that out at the sales desk at the airport.

 

[johntea]

A telly with a screen that size is, what, £400?

I don't doubt they would be expensive, they're just about a factor of 3-4 out from what I expected.

I often think I'm in the wrong job, I work in NHS IT and we recently bought some 'self check in' kiosks. Basically just a 19" or so touch screen with a standard PC running Windows 10 in a fancy shell, around £2.5k a piece! Personally I would have just got some decent tablets for well under £250 a piece and stuck them to the wall but I don't get invited to the meetings where they spend (lots of!) money.

Having said that I also worked in education before where you were stuck between a rock and a hard place as you often got funding from various sources but lost it if you didn't spend it by a certain date so then it was worth just trying to max out the budget! Which sounds ridiculous but that is how it worked!

 

[WatcherZero]

Most of the cost is generally the software and mechanical design factoring in the low unit numbers not the cost of the hardware which is generally an off the shelf PC inside a custom frame.

Its kinda like if you ordered a custom dining table set from a carpenter you might be paying in the region of £4000 however the materials cost the same as if you bought an £800 wooden dining table from John Lewis, the difference is the carpenters only doing 1 table but the store might have produced several thousand of that design.

 

[pemma]

TVM's cost in the region of £30,000 about the same as a all the employment costs of an unskilled full time staff member for one year

When old Northern installed Parkeon TVMs there was a rumour that each one costed £25,000. That rumour was dismissed by Mark Barker from Northern, he didn't give an exact price but only said the cost was 'significantly less' than £25k.

 

[Starmill]

And if you step outside the box for a moment, then you will realise the other benefits derived from having TVMs everywhere. Guards will have more time for checking tickets and carrying out dispatch / safety duties with fewer on-board sales to make. This in return will reduce the need to have outsourced revenue staff which will reduce overheads further (and at the same time strengthen the argument to keep guards on trains and not go towards full DOO). Then once the smartcard / smartphone ticketing technology has been agreed, having connected TVMs means that Northern could start to offer season and pay-as-you-go cards with touch-in, touch-out devices attached to or alongside the TVMs.

In what way is any of this even slightly relevant? If we were talking about a small station with a 2-hourly service at least that has a few thousand passengers per year then fine. But we're not. We're talking about Ardwick, Denton and Reddish South. I simply do not believe that having ticket machines at these stations will reduce the workload for guards to sell tickets or reduce the number of cheap agency staff needed to attempt to enforce the requirement to buy before boarding. You are clearly detached from reality with regards to the situation that these stations are in and have failed to make any points which are actually relevant to stations that have services as limited as once per week.

However, as we are now entirely going around in circles with this, I will leave this debate where it is.

 

[Starmill]

...low unit numbers...

As orders go this must be a big one - in the high hundreds (I don't know how many but it's more than 500).

 

[Bantamzen]

In what way is any of this even slightly relevant? If we were talking about a small station with a 2-hourly service at least that has a few thousand passengers per year then fine. But we're not. We're talking about Ardwick, Denton and Reddish South. I simply do not believe that having ticket machines at these stations will reduce the workload for guards to sell tickets or reduce the number of cheap agency staff needed to attempt to enforce the requirement to buy before boarding. You are clearly detached from reality with regards to the situation that these stations are in and have failed to make any points which are actually relevant to stations that have services as limited as once per week.

However, as we are now entirely going around in circles with this, I will leave this debate where it is.

For goodness sake, I thought it would be obvious that Northern are trying to prevent fare evaders having an excuse to arrive at their destination without a ticket!! These people are not coming from places like Ardwick, but have worked out that on certain trains at certain times that call at these stations if they avoid the guard they can then get a cheaper fare than they would otherwise if challenged at the end of their journey. I'm not saying that these machines will themselves raise the money, but their presence means that these stations cannot be used as a false starting location anymore. So when someone now tries, unless said TVM is offline and not able to issue tickets, then the evader instead of being charged a couple of quid gets charged the penalty fare. All of this then means, in time that evaders will be deterred and such Northern can use its resources more efficiently on other aspects of the business. You really don't need to understand the workings of their revenue protection to work that one out!!!!

 

[sheff1]

NrCOC says you must buy a ticket before travelling if able to do so and must obey ticket terms and conditions. 2010 act of parliament established rail bylaws apply to nrcoc.

The NRCoC have not been in force since October 2016.

 

[sheff1]

The other week I lost my Debit Card, so only had cash, at the moment from Hall i'th' Wood this was no issue as I bought at Salford Central. I assume Hall i'th' Wood will be receiving a ticket machine and it will be card only. When this has been installed, could I then be fined for not buying a ticket even though I only had cash and they provided no cash purchasing facilities? Obviously in the rush hour, you rarely get a seat at Hall i'th' Wood and if it is a carriage short getting on the train is not definite, so it would not be feasible to buy from the guard.

Some posters on here claim you could be fined in such circumstances. In fact, Northern have no powers to fine anyone and if they tried, in the circumstances described, to say you could not pay the fare due when you reached your destination and instead sought to impose some sort of surcharge or Penalty Fare they would be in breach of the NRCoT and, quite possibly, other consumer legislation.

 

[Bungle965]

Barriers are in use at Rochdale and within the 2 minutes I was there someone had already jumped the gates.
There is a Carlisle member of staff with a STAR Mobile selling tickets to those who want to pay cash.
Sam

 

[pemma]

Barriers are in use at Rochdale and within the 2 minutes I was there someone had already jumped the gates.
There is a Carlisle member of staff with a STAR Mobile selling tickets to those who want to pay cash.
Sam

Advisor: I've looked at every possible option and barriers won't work at this station.
Manager: Just install some and stop making excuses.

 

[WatcherZero]

The NRCoC have not been in force since October 2016.

Different name, same text as previous years

• You must purchase, where possible, a valid Ticket before you board a train service on the National Rail Network.

6. You must have a valid Ticket to travel
6.1 We will ensure that you have a reasonable opportunity to purchase your Ticket before you travel.
6.2 Tickets can be purchased at staffed Ticket offices or through self-service Ticket machines at many stations, and can also be purchased from a range of Train Companies and other Licenced Retailers online and by telephone. You may also purchase a Ticket through use of a smartcard or registered payment card in areas where such schemes apply.

INFORMATION: ‘Ticket’ includes a validated contactless payment card where accepted. The ‘Tickets’ definition in Appendix B gives more information.

6.3 You must have in your possession a valid Ticket before you board a train unless one of the following circumstances applies:
(a) At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, either because there is no Ticket office open or self-service Ticket machine in working order and, where notices indicate that you are in a Penalty Fares area you purchase a Permit to Travel if there is a working Permit to Travel issuing machine at the station where you start your journey – see section 10 for more information about Penalty Fares; or
(b) Where you are specifically permitted to board a train service by an authorised member of staff or notice of the Train Company whose service you intend to board; or
(c) You have a disability and Ticket purchasing arrangements at the station you are departing from are not suitably accessible.
In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey. The price of the Ticket you purchase will be the same as if you had bought a Ticket at the station from which you first departed.
6.4 Children under five years of age may travel free of charge without a Ticket providing that they are travelling with a passenger holding a valid Ticket or other authority to travel.
6.5 Children aged between 5 years and 15 years must have a valid Ticket for travel but are entitled to a “child” discount on most Tickets. If a discount is not available, it will be made clear to you when you buy your Ticket.
6.6 Special arrangements apply for accompanied children aged under 11 in the London pay as you go zonal fare area. For details please go to: https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/travel-for-under-18s/travelling-with-children
INFORMATION: This means that you should buy a ticket from the conductor on the train if there is one available; at an interchange station provided there is sufficient time before your connecting service; or, if neither of these is possible, at your destination.


10.1 Some Train Companies operate a Penalty Fares scheme.
All such schemes operate on the same basis, and are approved by the Department for Transport. More information on Penalty Fare schemes and a list of the Train Companies operating such schemes can be found at www.nationalrail.co.uk/tickets.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46592.aspx

How much does a Penalty Fare cost?
The penalty is £20 or twice the full single fare from the station where the passenger got on the train to the next station at which the train stops, whichever is the greater.

If the passenger wants to travel beyond the next station, they must also pay the relevant fare from that station to their final destination.

Where do Penalty Fares apply?
Penalty Fares apply if you travelling from a Penalty Fare station.

Penalty Fare stations are all clearly indicated as such by means of signs and large yellow posters. Your local train company will also be able to advise.

How do I avoid a Penalty Fare?
To avoid paying a Penalty Fare, you must purchase a valid ticket to your destination for the class of travel you wish to use before starting your journey.

If you are unable to do so, you must buy a Permit to Travel from the machines that are provided at most stations. This permit must be upgraded to a valid ticket at the first opportunity.

If you are unable to purchase a Permit to Travel, you should obtain a ticket from the Conductor on the train or at the first opportunity.

This is the system Northern is moving to with all stations becoming Penalty Fare stations though of course some rural stations may take a while to catch up.

 

[sheff1]

As you have now posted the extract which confirms that the new policy you outlined in post #228 will breach the NRCoT, I see no need to say anything further.

 

[philthetube]

But also taking into account that the proportion of advance bookings done via the Internet must be tending towards 100% and I would think likely to reach high 90s within 5-10 years if it's not already there.

Who books a flight by phone or at the airport in 2017?

All these travel agents must be selling something.

 

[lejog]

NrCOC says you must buy a ticket before travelling if able to do so and must obey ticket terms and conditions. 2010 act of parliament established rail bylaws apply to nrcoc.

Can you please clarify what you mean by the statement in bold? The railway bylaws are laws of limited application that apply only to people on railway land. The renamed NRCOT is a contract between the TOCs and passengers that buy a ticket. I don't see how railway bylaws "apply" to a contract, they apply to people - contract law applies to a contract. Specifically the government has stated that the 2015 Consumer Rights Act 2015 (which applies to contracts between businesses and consumers) will apply to the in full to the railways, they will no longer have exemptions.

Secondly here is a list of 2010 Acts of Parliament, nothing there strikes me as being relevant to your claims. Can you please clarify which Act you are talking about?

 

[Karl]

A ticket machine has appeared at Bamber Bridge station on platform 1. Not yet in service and I think it's a card only machine? How will cash customers cope? It's also in the open, perhaps a shelter will be added?

 

[radamfi]

Rochdale's barriers are in the subway, but there is a ticket office upstairs, so you have to get through the barriers to get to the ticket office. Under what circumstances are you allowed to be let through the barriers to visit the ticket office?

Is the ticket office going to be closed? Surely it must get hardly any use now. Presumably season ticket holders can still renew their tickets, and people arriving at Rochdale buying tickets for another day can also use it, but that's basically it.

 

[Bungle965]

Rochdale's barriers are in the subway, but there is a ticket office upstairs, so you have to get through the barriers to get to the ticket office. Under what circumstances are you allowed to be let through the barriers to visit the ticket office?

Is the ticket office going to be closed? Surely it must get hardly any use now. Presumably season ticket holders can still renew their tickets, and people arriving at Rochdale buying tickets for another day can also use it, but that's basically it.

There is a member of Carlisle security staff who has been there selling tickets to people who are wanting to pay cash, but often he gets inundated with people and so has to send them through the barriers and up to the ticket office.
I tried to pay with an RTV and was also waved through the barriers and was told to pay at the ticket office.
Sam

 

[radamfi]

There is a member of Carlisle security staff who has been there selling tickets to people who are wanting to pay cash, but often he gets inundated with people and so has to send them through the barriers and up to the ticket office.
I tried to pay with an RTV and was also waved through the barriers and was told to pay at the ticket office.
Sam

Is there another station with the ticket office inside the barriers?

 

[coxxy]

Is there another station with the ticket office inside the barriers?

Can't think if any but believe that they are looking at a similar set up for Blackburn station.

 

[Andyh82]

Surely these new big screen machines are just asking to be vandalised, it's like leaving an unattended plasma screen TV on the platform.

Personally I find these big screens a bit overpowering when you are stood right up in front of them. It isn't natural for the eye to trace along such a big amount of space at such close range.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can't think if any but believe that they are looking at a similar set up for Blackburn station.

What an utterly ludicrous idea.

 

[Starmill]

Cambridge North, Queenstown Road, Bicester Village and Oxford Parkway have gates but no ticket office (although I think for these latter two the station staff do have the ability to issue tickets that the machines can't). There are a number of London Overground stations where there are gates but the ticket office may be closed.

Cathays has a similar setup which is slightly bizarre, where the 'ticket office' is inside the gates, but it is right in front of the gates, rather than upstairs. This sounds odd but Cathays is almost a city centre station and I think the majority of ticket sales there are to arriving passengers.