Northern: The Great Unit Cascade

[Andyh82]

You’d like to think that Northern would be at the front of the queue for any 158s, 170s, 175s etc when they become available from any TOC.

Although now they’ve spent money on the older sprinters I could imagine a scenario where the 150s remain and these newer sprinters go off lease with no takers.

 

[anamyd]

You’d like to think that Northern would be at the front of the queue for any 158s, 170s, 175s etc when they become available from any TOC.

Although now they’ve spent money on the older sprinters I could imagine a scenario where the 150s remain and these newer sprinters go off lease with no takers.

They could of course do the same thing I described with the 158s as well!

 

[Chester1]

You’d like to think that Northern would be at the front of the queue for any 158s, 170s, 175s etc when they become available from any TOC.

Although now they’ve spent money on the older sprinters I could imagine a scenario where the 150s remain and these newer sprinters go off lease with no takers.

Money is being spent by the Roscos on all sprinters apart from the 153s. Angel Trains own most of the Northern 150s and have a lot of 156s and 158s coming off lease during the early 2020s they may want to swap units if they think they are more likely to stay after the ed of the franchise.

 

[anamyd]

it's 109 units in total that will be made surplus by the 148 (total) CAF and Stadler units in 2022-2023:

36 150/2s, 13 153s, 24 158/0s, 11 175/0s, 16 175/1s, 5 769/0s and 4 769/4s. I don't believe that any of those units are yet "wanted" by any other TOCs. I was thinking Northern myself though - the 150/2s especially would be good to make up to 72 of those "hybrid" three-car 150s they were going to do, right...?

After a thorough pad and pen session I've now worked out that if Northern acquired all of TfW's 36x 2-car 150/2s and 24x 2-car 158/0s in 2023, they could form 122x 3-car "hybrid" units and go from having 78x 2-car 150s, 45x 2-car 158s and 8x 3-car 158s, to having 76x 3-car 150s and 54x 3-car 158s. I fear this won't happen, at least not to this extent, but I enjoyed working it out

 

[Mathew S]

After a thorough pad and pen session I've now worked out that if Northern acquired all of TfW's 36x 2-car 150/2s and 24x 2-car 158/0s in 2023, they could form 122x 3-car "hybrid" units and go from having 78x 2-car 150s, 45x 2-car 158s and 8x 3-car 158s, to having 76x 3-car 150s and 54x 3-car 158s. I fear this won't happen, at least not to this extent, but I enjoyed working it out

I can take or leave the nasty 150s (not TfWs ones especially, they're just outdated and grotty in general). But the extra 158s would make a huge difference.

It had also occured to me that a fleet of 175s, upgraded to Northern Connect standard - which I don't think would be a big ask - could be well suited to Chester - Leeds. Anyway, just a thought.

 

[Crisps]

Apologies if this has already answered, but has it been confirmed what will be cascaded onto the Saltburn-Darlington-Bishop Auckland route when the Pacers go? I’m assuming 156s, as they pop up occasionally and there are stop boards for them on the platforms. Somehow I can’t see us lot on the Tees Valley/Bishop Auckland lines being treated to 158s!

 

[darloscott]

Apologies if this has already answered, but has it been confirmed what will be cascaded onto the Saltburn-Darlington-Bishop Auckland route when the Pacers go? I’m assuming 156s, as they pop up occasionally and there are stop boards for them on the platforms. Somehow I can’t see us lot on the Tees Valley/Bishop Auckland lines being treated to 158s!

Yep 156's for the most part. The odd 158 is starting to drift onto these workings now, but expect it will be solid 156 territory until the hydrogen 321's arrive

 

[tbtc]

You’d like to think that Northern would be at the front of the queue for any 158s, 170s, 175s etc when they become available from any TOC.

Although now they’ve spent money on the older sprinters I could imagine a scenario where the 150s remain and these newer sprinters go off lease with no takers.

I'd much prefer a journey on a 158 to one crammed into the "toaster rack" seats of a 3+2 150... 158s are great trains on the routes they are suited to... BUT, the awkward truth is that 150s are more needed by Northern (given that 195s will take much of the faster/ longer distance work, 170s are doing things like Sheffield - Hull)... simple DMUs with wide doors and reasonable at accelerating are what we really need.

Once the 195s take the "flagship" routes, 158s will end up on routes they are less suited to, so bringing in even more from other TOCs would mean 158s struggling to cope with frequent stops on routes where a 75mph DMU would actually be better than a 90mph one.

(personally, I'd rather than the 195s were Pacer replacements and we could use doubled up 158s on routes like the semi-fast Sheffield - Leeds service but the stock procurement was all about flashy trains for the flashiest services, which means putting medium-distance trains on services better suited to short-distance trains)

 

[xotGD]

Apologies if this has already answered, but has it been confirmed what will be cascaded onto the Saltburn-Darlington-Bishop Auckland route when the Pacers go? I’m assuming 156s, as they pop up occasionally and there are stop boards for them on the platforms. Somehow I can’t see us lot on the Tees Valley/Bishop Auckland lines being treated to 158s!

You should be happy with the 156s. On the Pontefract Line it looks like we'll be stuck with 150s for the foreseeable future.

 

[Chester1]

I'd much prefer a journey on a 158 to one crammed into the "toaster rack" seats of a 3+2 150... 158s are great trains on the routes they are suited to... BUT, the awkward truth is that 150s are more needed by Northern (given that 195s will take much of the faster/ longer distance work, 170s are doing things like Sheffield - Hull)... simple DMUs with wide doors and reasonable at accelerating are what we really need.

Once the 195s take the "flagship" routes, 158s will end up on routes they are less suited to, so bringing in even more from other TOCs would mean 158s struggling to cope with frequent stops on routes where a 75mph DMU would actually be better than a 90mph one.

(personally, I'd rather than the 195s were Pacer replacements and we could use doubled up 158s on routes like the semi-fast Sheffield - Leeds service but the stock procurement was all about flashy trains for the flashiest services, which means putting medium-distance trains on services better suited to short-distance trains)

There is a middle ground between the Northern Connect routes and services that have regular stops and need low dwell time. That group fits 158s very well because they are more comfortable than other sprinters. The 156s have neither advantage and are probably most vulnerable to being scrapped first.

 

[anamyd]

I can take or leave the nasty 150s (not TfWs ones especially, they're just outdated and grotty in general). But the extra 158s would make a huge difference.

It had also occured to me that a fleet of 175s, upgraded to Northern Connect standard - which I don't think would be a big ask - could be well suited to Chester - Leeds. Anyway, just a thought.

I was thinking more in terms of making the 150s longer (by reforming the 78x 2-car Northern ones into 76x 3-car "hybrid" ones by inserting an ex-TfW vehicle into the middle of 72 of them, and using the remaining 12 Northern vehicles to form the other 4) as I understand that even with a 2019 population, they can get crush loaded on commuter duties and even leave people on the platforms...? And there'll be even more people in 2023, so even though they'd still be 150s, they'd be 150s that'd have a better chance of actually having a high enough carrying capacity! Which of TfW's 150s seemed "grotty" to you...?

The 45x Northern 2-car 158s, if reformed into 3-car "hybrid" ones by inserting an ex-TfW vehicle into the middle, would leave 3 ex-TfW vehicles to form a 46th 3-car "hybrid" 158. The 8x already-3-car Northern 158s added to those would mean 54x 3-car 158s. With more people around than ever before, it'd totally make sense to do this in my opinion. For routes with restricted train lengths, there'd still be the 2-car 156s and 2-car 195s.

As for the 175s, they wouldn't be a bad idea (as long as they didn't catch fire). They were originally First North Western units and they're based at Chester depot, so they'd make sense in the general Northern area.

 

[xotGD]

There is a middle ground between the Northern Connect routes and services that have regular stops and need low dwell time. That group fits 158s very well because they are more comfortable than other sprinters. The 156s have neither advantage and are probably most vulnerable to being scrapped first.

156s are a lot better than 150s from a passenger experience perspective. It would be great to have them on Bentham Line, Pontefract Line and other services out of Leeds in place of 150s.

 

[Chester1]

156s are a lot better than 150s from a passenger experience perspective. It would be great to have them on Bentham Line, Pontefract Line and other services out of Leeds in place of 150s.

I agree they are more comfortable but 150s are more practical for commuter routes into major cities. Leeds-Lancaster is ok with end door units as long as most Northern services into Leeds have doors at thirds. 158s would be better than 156s and they will be available to lease. 150s are best for commuter routes into bottleneck areas, 195s for the regional services and 158s and 170s suit most people services in between. I am not sure what niche 156s would fill. If they are retain (or more lease) it will probably be driven by commercial factors.

 

[Crisps]

You should be happy with the 156s. On the Pontefract Line it looks like we'll be stuck with 150s for the foreseeable future.

I pity you. I’ve sampled a Northern 150 only once before, on the Harrogate Line, and it isn’t an experience I wish to repeat. I quite like the 156s though.

 

[Harvey B]

Apologies if this has already been brought up but with the first 323 going for refurbishment this week does anyone have a rough timescale of when the first 319 could leave Northern (I.E August 2020)

 

[Greybeard33]

Apologies if this has already been brought up but with the first 323 going for refurbishment this week does anyone have a rough timescale of when the first 319 could leave Northern (I.E August 2020)

I suspect withdrawal of 319s is more dependent on introduction of 331s than refurbishment of 323s. If 6-car 331 formations take over the Blackpool to Manchester Airport route they will replace four 319 diagrams. But on other routes, it would be a reduction of capacity to substitute 3-car 331s or refurbished 323s for 4-car 319s. Infrastructure limitations restrict the use of 6-cars.

So the full cascade might depend on the return of the twelve 4-car 331s from the east side. Which in turn is dependent on Leeds platform lengthening. But all speculation on my part. I have no inside knowledge.

Edit: when the eight 769s enter service, they should replace the two "temporary" 319s, 372 and 373.

 

[Harvey B]

I suspect withdrawal of 319s is more dependent on introduction of 331s than refurbishment of 323s. If 6-car 331 formations take over the Blackpool to Manchester Airport route they will replace four 319 diagrams. But on other routes, it would be a reduction of capacity to substitute 3-car 331s or refurbished 323s for 4-car 319s. Infrastructure limitations restrict the use of 6-cars.

So the full cascade might depend on the return of the twelve 4-car 331s from the east side. Which in turn is dependent on Leeds platform lengthening. But all speculation on my part. I have no inside knowledge.

Edit: when the eight 769s enter service, they should replace the two "temporary" 319s, 372 and 373.

Thanks very much, even though you have no inside knowledge about this, I kinda agree that it could be based on the 331s too (and no im not being rude here even though it may sound like it)

 

[xotGD]

I suspect withdrawal of 319s is more dependent on introduction of 331s than refurbishment of 323s. If 6-car 331 formations take over the Blackpool to Manchester Airport route they will replace four 319 diagrams. But on other routes, it would be a reduction of capacity to substitute 3-car 331s or refurbished 323s for 4-car 319s. Infrastructure limitations restrict the use of 6-cars.

So the full cascade might depend on the return of the twelve 4-car 331s from the east side. Which in turn is dependent on Leeds platform lengthening. But all speculation on my part. I have no inside knowledge.

Edit: when the eight 769s enter service, they should replace the two "temporary" 319s, 372 and 373.

If a 769 can replace a 319, then surely you don't need a bi-mode, you just need an emu? So why not just keep the two 319s?

 

[Greybeard33]

Yes a 769 can replace a 319, but not the other way round. As I understand it, the eight conversions were ordered on the basis that there would be six bi-mode diagrams and the other two 769s would act as spares to provide maintenance cover for both the 319 and 769 fleets.

319372 and 319373 are currently acting as substitute spares to cover for the 769 delay.

 

[prod_pep]

It will be interesting to see if the 331s replace 323s on the Manchester to Hadfield and Stoke services which I believe was the original plan. That would release up to 9 of the 323s which could then see off the 319s on the Liverpool, Manchester, Warrington BQ and Crewe circuit and the Liverpool - Wigan NW service.

It has been mentioned that the Liverpool - Blackpool North service is set to go over to 331s in September, so that releases 3 of the 319s. An opportunity to let the three white ones (372/373/446) go?

 

[xotGD]

Yes a 769 can replace a 319, but not the other way round. As I understand it, the eight conversions were ordered on the basis that there would be six bi-mode diagrams and the other two 769s would act as spares to provide maintenance cover for both the 319 and 769 fleets.

319372 and 319373 are currently acting as substitute spares to cover for the 769 delay.

Thanks - that makes sense!

 

[js1000]

Apologies if this has already been brought up but with the first 323 going for refurbishment this week does anyone have a rough timescale of when the first 319 could leave Northern (I.E August 2020)

Will be a while yet. Not until the Aventras are in service at West Midlands Trains which will release their 323s. Probably first half of 2021 the way introduction of rolling stock generally goes (i.e. delayed)

It will be interesting to see if the 331s replace 323s on the Manchester to Hadfield and Stoke services which I believe was the original plan. That would release up to 9 of the 323s which could then see off the 319s on the Liverpool, Manchester, Warrington BQ and Crewe circuit and the Liverpool - Wigan NW service.

It has been mentioned that the Liverpool - Blackpool North service is set to go over to 331s in September, so that releases 3 of the 319s. An opportunity to let the three white ones (372/373/446) go?

The only 331 services west side I could say with any reasonable certainty west of the Pennines the 331s will be the two electrified Northern routes to/via Manchester Airport which would be Manchester Airport to Blackpool North and the 'stopping' service to/from Crewe to Liverpool via Manchester.

How the 331s are divvied up elsewhere is anyone's guess.

 

[AMD]

The only 331 services west side I could say with any reasonable certainty west of the Pennines the 331s will be the two electrified Northern routes to/via Manchester Airport which would be Manchester Airport to Blackpool North and the 'stopping' service to/from Crewe to Liverpool via Manchester.

The west side plan for 331s is Stoke/ Hazel Grove to Blackpool, Manchester Airport to Blackpool, Hadfield and Liverpool to Blackpool. Crewe to Liverpool will be remaining as 319/323.

 

[Harvey B]

Will be a while yet. Not until the Aventras are in service at West Midlands Trains which will release their 323s. Probably first half of 2021 the way introduction of rolling stock generally goes (i.e. delayed)

Thanks

 

[VioletEclipse]

The ex Scotrail Class 170 Turbostars seem to now be operating on the York to Leeds via Harrogate line

 

[_toommm_]

The ex Scotrail Class 170 Turbostars seem to now be operating on the York to Leeds via Harrogate line

As they have been for a while now...

 

[Mex I can]

The ex Scotrail Class 170 Turbostars seem to now be operating on the York to Leeds via Harrogate line

Do you mean the ones which are still in Scotrail livery? I usually see a couple on the Sheffield to Bridlington run, but there was no sign of them today and all 170s were in new Northern livery on that run.

Maybe it’s just down to the Northern random unit generator.

 

[PHILIPE]

The ex Scotrail Class 170 Turbostars seem to now be operating on the York to Leeds via Harrogate line

They are all Northern 170s now irrespective of the livery

 

[YorksDMU]

They are also being used on the Hull to York services too. Last Monday, the 29th July, it was 170457 on the 13.10 Hull to York, and the return back to Hull. Then it worked the 17.18 from Hull to Bridlington. I was on that service too on my way back to Beverley.

 

[VioletEclipse]

Do you mean the ones which are still in Scotrail livery? I usually see a couple on the Sheffield to Bridlington run, but there was no sign of them today and all 170s were in new Northern livery on that run.

Maybe it’s just down to the Northern random unit generator.

I meant the units that used to be with Scotrail, now repainted and refurbished to Northern spec