Northern tickets

[Kmo86]

I regularly use northern trains from Bridlington to hull and have noticed a few times when I’ve not managed to get a ticket before getting train the conductor says I should get ticket before getting train yet they never used to say anything.

I’m not saying they are wrong to it obviously makes sense so people don’t get away with not paying. I only get train with no ticket if I’m late for train so wouldn’t have time to get ticket then get train.

Ive had one conductor mention I need to get ticket before getting train another said I couldn’t use my disabled railcard on train but then let me when I told them I have used it on train other times with no problem.

Today the ticket office was closed so I had to get train with no ticket and before we set off there was an announcement saying penalty fares are in operation for anyone without a ticket but conductor let me buy ticket on train as I told him the ticket office was closed.

He knew as he said it had just reopened but obviously it would have meant missing that train so he let me buy ticket on train.

So I’m wondering if northern are starting with penalty fares?

 

[yorkie]

If you are unable to buy a ticket at the origin, a Penalty Fare cannot lawfully be issued for boarding the train without a ticket, as you had no "opportunity to pay" before boarding.

Furthermore, Northern Guards cannot issue Penalty Fares.

If you are incorrectly issued a PF, please appeal it and seek advice through this forum.

 

[skyhigh]

Furthermore, Northern Guards cannot issue Penalty Fares.

That's right, but there's been a large increase in the number of onboard revenue officers over the last 6 months, and they can issue PFs. If they're on board, guards are supposed to make an announcement regarding penalty fares.

So I’m wondering if northern are starting with penalty fares?

Northern have been doing penalty fares for a few years now.

 

[Merseysider]

Penalty Fares are in operation across almost the entire Northern network (link to view the map is here).

If you are able to buy a ticket before you travel, and choose not to (running late is not a valid reason), you can be charged a Penalty Fare, although not by one of their Guards.

If you are unable to buy a ticket before you travel due to a disability or no ticket issuing facilities being available, you are entitled to the full range of fares as normal, with no Penalty Fare.

 

[Watershed]

I regularly use northern trains from Bridlington to hull and have noticed a few times when I’ve not managed to get a ticket before getting train the conductor says I should get ticket before getting train yet they never used to say anything.

I’m not saying they are wrong to it obviously makes sense so people don’t get away with not paying. I only get train with no ticket if I’m late for train so wouldn’t have time to get ticket then get train.

Ive had one conductor mention I need to get ticket before getting train another said I couldn’t use my disabled railcard on train but then let me when I told them I have used it on train other times with no problem.

Today the ticket office was closed so I had to get train with no ticket and before we set off there was an announcement saying penalty fares are in operation for anyone without a ticket but conductor let me buy ticket on train as I told him the ticket office was closed.

He knew as he said it had just reopened but obviously it would have meant missing that train so he let me buy ticket on train.

So I’m wondering if northern are starting with penalty fares?

Northern gradually introduced Penalty Fares across most of their network, and had just about finished when the pandemic started.

If there is a working ticket machine which can sell the ticket you need, or the booking office is open, you must use these facilities to buy a ticket before you board - unless your disability makes this impracticable. Failure to do so may render you liable to a range of potential penalties, ranging from having to pay the non-Railcard-discounted Anytime fare to your destination, to being issued with a Penalty Fare, to being prosecuted.

The fact that you might otherwise have missed the train is unlikely to lead to a successful appeal of any Penalty Fare you're issued with. Though of course it is situation dependent - for example, it may be different if a level crossing prevents you from accessing the only available ticket machine even though you've arrived 5 or 10 minutes before the train arrives (as might happen at stations like Kiveton Park).

 

[Grumpy Git]

Penalty Fares are in operation across almost the entire Northern network (link to view the map is here).

My god, only Northern could "highlight" something in grey! I've never seen such a pathetic attempt to highlight something in my life, where do they get the managers from who sign-off such terrible publications?

 

[mikeg]

What @yorkie said is absolutely accurate. However please note that being late would not be a reason to board without a ticket.

 

[Gathursty]

According to that map, there is a ticket machine at Clapham (Yorks). Really?

 

[Grumpy Git]

According to that map, there is a ticket machine at Clapham (Yorks). Really?

But not one at Warrington West, a brand new station, (next time I buy a car I must insist they don't bother supplying the wheels)!

 

[Alex365Dash]

But not one at Warrington West, a brand new station, (next time I buy a car I must insist they don't bother supplying the wheels)!

The text is highlighted, but the dot denoting the station itself isn’t. That’s odd…

 

[Grumpy Git]

The text is highlighted, but the dot denoting the station itself isn’t. That’s odd…

Its just a bloody awfully coloured map. Who uses grey apart from decorators and painters of battleships anyway?

I suggest the designer borrow the eyes of a 50 something who's misplaced his specs and try again.

 

[Kmo86]

How do I know who is a guard and who is a revenue officer?

 

[Watershed]

How do I know who is a guard and who is a revenue officer?

It's not always easy to tell, but the guard should be identifiable by the fact they're the person dispatching the train, i.e. releasing and closing the doors, and carrying a carriage key or similar. Whereas revenue staff will tend to stay on the train during stops, and more often than not will be in pairs.

 

[island]

If you are unable to buy a ticket at the origin, a Penalty Fare cannot lawfully be issued for boarding the train without a ticket, as you had no "opportunity to pay" before boarding.

That’s not always the case. If the guard has come through offering to sell tickets on board, then a Penalty Fare can be issued to anyone who has chosen not to take up the offer, even if they joined at a station where there were no facilities in operation for the sale of a travel ticket. See section 6 (6) of the Railways Penalty Fares Regulations 2018.

How do I know who is a guard and who is a revenue officer?

There is not generally a need to worry about the distinction, just buy a ticket at the first opportunity and you will be fine.

A revenue officer (legally a “collector”) will carry an identification card identifying themselves as one, and must produce it on request when issuing a Penalty Fare.

 

[Llandudno]

I don’t think you can buy rover, ranger or Derbyshire/TfGM Wayfarer tickets from TVMs, or couldn’t last time I tried.
I got a ‘Promise to pay voucher’ from the machine and waited in a queue at the Manchester Piccadilly gate line to buy a TfGM Wayfarer.

Presume that is still the case, assuming the Northern TVMs are functioning again!

 

[507020]

My god, only Northern could "highlight" something in grey! I've never seen such a pathetic attempt to highlight something in my life, where do they get the managers from who sign-off such terrible publications?

At least there are no penalty fares on the Settle - Carlisle line

 

[scrapy]

That’s not always the case. If the guard has come through offering to sell tickets on board, then a Penalty Fare can be issued to anyone who has chosen not to take up the offer, even if they joined at a station where there were no facilities in operation for the sale of a travel ticket. See section 6 (6) of the Railways Penalty Fares Regulations 2018.

There is not generally a need to worry about the distinction, just buy a ticket at the first opportunity and you will be fine.

A revenue officer (legally a “collector”) will carry an identification card identifying themselves as one, and must produce it on request when issuing a Penalty Fare.

If the guard has actually spoke to the passenger and the passenger has refused then yes a penalty could be legitimately given under section 6(6). However I would not have thought a penalty could be given if the guard simply walks through offering tickets generally as section 6(6) requires a refusal to pay. In this case the OPs disability may also prevent them hearing the guard or they may have headphones in, be asleep or be otherwise distracted, and whilst this may annoy some people it's not a refusal.

 

[oddiesjack]

I regularly use northern trains from Bridlington to hull and have noticed a few times when I’ve not managed to get a ticket before getting train the conductor says I should get ticket before getting train yet they never used to say anything.

I’m not saying they are wrong to it obviously makes sense so people don’t get away with not paying. I only get train with no ticket if I’m late for train so wouldn’t have time to get ticket then get train.

Ive had one conductor mention I need to get ticket before getting train another said I couldn’t use my disabled railcard on train but then let me when I told them I have used it on train other times with no problem.

Today the ticket office was closed so I had to get train with no ticket and before we set off there was an announcement saying penalty fares are in operation for anyone without a ticket but conductor let me buy ticket on train as I told him the ticket office was closed.

He knew as he said it had just reopened but obviously it would have meant missing that train so he let me buy ticket on train.

So I’m wondering if northern are starting with penalty fares?

Bridlington station staff tend to assist passengers with prams, wheelchairs etc across the barrow crossing to or from platform 4 (the Scarborough-bound one), so its quite possible for the booking office window to be closed while they are doing this, and are single-manned. Thus it is quite likely that there would be nobody there at times when it is theoretically manned, and most conductor guards would be understanding if someone didn't have a ticket.

 

[Kmo86]

Bridlington station staff tend to assist passengers with prams, wheelchairs etc across the barrow crossing to or from platform 4 (the Scarborough-bound one), so its quite possible for the booking office window to be closed while they are doing this, and are single-manned. Thus it is quite likely that there would be nobody there at times when it is theoretically manned, and most conductor guards would be understanding if someone didn't have a ticket.

That is exactly what I have found they will all be fine with me showing my railcard and paying for ticket on train so I’m a bit concerned if I ever do meet one of these revenue officers would they let me pay for ticket as I normally do or would they automatically give me penalty fare?

 

[Watershed]

That is exactly what I have found they will all be fine with me showing my railcard and paying for ticket on train so I’m a bit concerned if I ever do meet one of these revenue officers would they let me pay for ticket as I normally do or would they automatically give me penalty fare?

Unless there was a 'good' reason why you hadn't bought a ticket, you would likely be issued with a Penalty Fare or take your details for potential prosecution.

If you're concerned about queuing to use the TVM, you could use an app on your phone to buy your ticket. You can then buy your ticket whilst making your way to the station.

 

[Shotton]

I am no expert, but as I understand it, if you had no opportunity to pay for your journey, a penalty fare cannot be issued.

In my opinion, arriving late to the station (ie just before your intended train departs) would constitute this. Reading the penalty fare regulations, the wording used is "the passenger is not able to use any means of payment the passenger has available at the relevant time". This seems to corroborate with my opinion; you can't use any payment means if you can't reach the TVM/Ticket Office before boarding.

However if I was in that situation, I would probably seek out the conductor, explain the situation and ask to purchase a ticket and would hope one would be issued.

 

[scrapy]

I am no expert, but as I understand it, if you had no opportunity to pay for your journey, a penalty fare cannot be issued.

In my opinion, arriving late to the station (ie just before your intended train departs) would constitute this. Reading the penalty fare regulations, the wording used is "the passenger is not able to use any means of payment the passenger has available at the relevant time". This seems to corroborate with my opinion; you can't use any payment means if you can't reach the TVM/Ticket Office before boarding.

However if I was in that situation, I would probably seek out the conductor, explain the situation and ask to purchase a ticket and would hope one would be issued.

This is not the case. It is the passengers responsibility to arrive in enough time to buy a ticket. Seeking out the conductor would probably result in you being sold a ticket although they would be perfectly within their rights to charge a full anytime fare, unless the ticket office was closed and the machines were not working. If the machine is the only option for purchase and doesn't sell the appropriate ticket or doesn't take the payment type then a promise to pay must be obtained before travel. There is a difference between not being able to reach a ticket office because it's closed and arriving late so you don't have time.

Even if penalty fares legislation is interpreted the way you say (unlikely) the company would be within their rights to prosecute as the railway byelaws says a passenger must buy a ticket before travel unless facilities were not available (if they choose not to issue a penalty fare).

The exception to this is where a passengers disability prevents them from accessing the available facilities, Northerns disability policy allows purchase onboard.

 

[Hadders]

Arriving late for a train is not a valid reason to board a train without a ticket.

You are required to purchase a ticket before you board the train, where ticket issuing facilities exist. If you don't do this then you are committing an offence and are at risk of being reported for prosecution or being issued a Penalty Fare.

Ticketing issuing facilities include a staffed ticket office and ticket vending machines. If the ticket issuing facilities do not sell the ticket you require (which often occurs with ticket issuing facilities) or does not accept your preferred method of payment then you may pay on the train or at the earliest opportunity (e.g. an interchange station or your destination).

Many Northern ticket machines don't accept cash and if this is your preferred payment method you should obtain a 'Promise to Pay' voucher from the ticket machine before you board the train.

 

[Shotton]

If this is the case, then I believe the wording in the penalty fares act is very misleading. You cannot use a method of payment if you do not arrive in time; despite this being your fault.

I don't see how the wording could be interpreted in any other manner, and again, on the prosecution front I don't think facilities would be considered available for your journey if you did not have time to use them.

 

[SteveM70]

If this is the case, then I believe the wording in the penalty fares act is very misleading. You cannot use a method of payment if you do not arrive in time; despite this being your fault.

I don't see how the wording could be interpreted in any other manner, and again, on the prosecution front I don't think facilities would be considered available for your journey if you did not have time to use them.

No. There is a world of difference between being unable to use the facilities because of your actions (arriving late) and being unable to use them because of the actions (or inactions) of the provider of the facilities

 

[Grumpy Git]

Some of the ticket machines I've come across, take longer to navigate than my train journey into town.

 

[Shotton]

No. There is a world of difference between being unable to use the facilities because of your actions (arriving late) and being unable to use them because of the actions (or inactions) of the provider of the facilities

The wording used makes no reference to who's fault it is. If I arrive late I am unable to use the facilities.

If this is the case, as said before I think the wording used is misleading.

 

[Merseysider]

The wording used makes no reference to who's fault it is. If I arrive late I am unable to use the facilities.

If I deliberately leave my wallet at home I am unable to use the facilities.

If I keep my eyes closed then I am unable to use the facilities.

If I padlock myself to a bench until the train arrives then I am unable to use the facilities.

I could go on... but I think (hope) I have made my point.

 

[The exile]

The wording used makes no reference to who's fault it is. If I arrive late I am unable to use the facilities.

If this is the case, as said before I think the wording used is misleading.

And if you arrive without cash, a card or any other means to pay you “ cannot use a means of payment” but it doesn’t entitle you to a free journey. A reasonable question is “ how much time do you have to allow for a queue at the only ticket machine / window “

 

[Shotton]

If I deliberately leave my wallet at home I am unable to use the facilities.

If I keep my eyes closed then I am unable to use the facilities.

If I padlock myself to a bench until the train arrives then I am unable to use the facilities.

I could go on... but I think (hope) I have made my point.

This made me laugh. Good point well made.

I still think the wording should be edited a little to the reflect the fact that only being unable to use the facilities at the fault of the operator is included.