Northern timetable changes May 2019

[Wtloild]

The bays are miles away from where anyone wants to go! They are avoided for reasons of good customer service.

Main reason nobody wants to go there is lack of trains...
Bays would offer:
* Easier interchange to Virgin services
* Much better step-free access (no need to use the lifts)
* Reduce the frequent crush conditions on the fairly narrow p1/p2
* Closer to toilets
* Closer to other Manc-bound trains on 3/4/5/6

Suspect only attraction to using 1/2 is that Northern's ticket enforcement can easily cordon if off for inspections.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Notice the ManVic-Preston trains all terminate at platform 1 at Preston.
Is there any reason why they don't use the bays?
Can sort of understand the Ormskirk trains using 1/2 seeing they're bearing off right a few miles down the line, but having Manchester trains cross right over to that side and then wait there seems a bit inefficient & risky, especially with through York-Blackpool trains being reinstated.

The bays are miles away from where anyone wants to go! They are avoided for reasons of good customer service.

The bays at Preston are fractionally too short for 319s.
They are 75/76m (P3c/4c).
I think you could get more out of 3c but at the loss of 4c (or maybe it's the other way round).
Despite all the shedloads of money spent on WCRM over the last 20 years, none of it was spent on the Preston layout (or Crewe, or Carlisle for that matter).

 

[AMD]

Notice the ManVic-Preston trains all terminate at platform 1 at Preston.
Is there any reason why they don't use the bays?

The bays are too short - 3c and 4c are 75m long, whereas the booked units for Vic to Preston will be 2x150 or a 319 = 80m.

 

[Chester1]

From TPE North Route thread:

So the ex-Northern 185s will provide improved resilience not extra capacity.

I guess that makes sense.

No, I agree entirely. The parochial nature of railways in the north, particularly the "golden carrot" of a direct rail service to Manchester Airport is a millstone around the neck in establishing efficiency. We have a daft situation of Liverpool to Manchester Airport via Warrington being one of our local services. Prior to May 2018 this was an electrified stopper from Crewe. Now we have a noisy, grotty diesel train. Apparently this somehow represents an improvement to Arriva.

The problem as I see it is insufficient "padding" at Manchester Airport. Even TPE are effectively operating an amended timetable until the end of the year because of delays in services to the Airport. The situation is only going to get trickier at the Airport when longer TPE/Northern trains are introduced and this will impinge on platform capacity.

If they want to run direct services to/from the Airport then fine. But they're going to have to think more creatively in how to achieve a reliable service. Maybe direct services to/from the Airport could be padded against delays by introducing some more calling points on the Styal Line commuter stations. The maximum speed on that line is 70mph and there isn't a great deal of difference between the time it takes for commuter trains (24 mins) on that line that call at all stations and express services (18 mins) from Piccadilly. If direct services are running late just skip the scheduled stop to make up some lost time. Conversely, the increased number of services (above TSR quantum) will make up for the inconvenience.

The easiest solution would be to launch an "Airport Express" service between Piccadilly and the Airport using modified EMUs. 4tph requiring 4 units + a spare. The remaining capacity could be used to serve the most important long distance destinations. Its not going to happen though!

 

[30907]

Don't know if this has been mentioned earlier, but a new 0720 Leeds-Lancaster and 0941 return appears in the May timetable.

 

[Altfish]

Mid-Cheshire Line seems to have got absolutely nothing again. Not even an enhanced Sunday service.

 

[Starmill]

Suspect only attraction to using 1/2 is that Northern's ticket enforcement can easily cordon if off for inspections.

They generally only do ticket inspection on the bridge to platforms 1 and 2. I have never seen it being done on the subway.

 

[Starmill]

Mid-Cheshire Line seems to have got absolutely nothing again. Not even an enhanced Sunday service.

I was about to post this myself. The Worksop and Harrogate enhancements have gone ahead, although only in part in the latter case. There seem to be no changes for the mid-cheshire line as far as the current data upload suggests.

 

[BlueFox]

I have never seen it being done on the subway.

The last time I was at Preston (last month) Northern were inspecting tickets in the subway. I don't know how common that is though, as I usually use the bridge.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

As feared, the Mid-Cheshire line has been shafted again. No additional weekday services, not even between Altrincham and Chester as floated last year. And still only 1tp2h on Sundays.

Congleton line gains nothing as usual.
Still gaps of up to 4 hours on Sundays despite an hourly service being promised again and being a franchise commitment since Dec 2017. (Disgrace!)
0644 retimed to 0642 and extended to Blackpool North (I believe this service is intended to be worked by a new class 331 unit)

Annoyingly two ECS schedules both passing Congleton at 0607 to form the above BPN service and the 0617 from MAC, the southbound one was removed in December and introducing the northbound one would be incredibly helpful, providing Congleton with a service arriving into MAN before 7am. (Not unreasonable for a station/town only 25 miles away!)

 

[driver_m]

Is Platform 7 at Chester specially dedicated for the Merseyrail services? I seem to remember seeing Merseyrail trains at the platform farthest away from the main entrance when I have passed through or changed trains there.

I mixed my a and b up sorry. Merseyrail do only use 7b typically, though they can go all the way down, there's a 3 and 6 car Board for them. Even with a 6 car though, there's plenty of room at the other end for a diesel to go on . Some NW-Manchester services use 7 to avoid a conflict with a service using 3 or 4 at the same time. There's no other platform for them though there's some aspiration for a platform 8 to be built in the sidings to allow them to terminate . It's very inflexible for Merseyrail having only the one platform and there are often hold ups waiting for 7b to be free.

 

[Fisherman80]

Don't know if this has been mentioned earlier, but a new 0720 Leeds-Lancaster and 0941 return appears in the May timetable.

I've just noticed that too......now that will be very handy for me! Also, the last train from Lancaster to Skipton seems to be timed to connect with the last Skipton to Leeds service.
I've noticed in the last year that,by my observations,the Bentham Line seems to be carrying more passengers.

 

[BlueFox]

I've noticed in the last year that,by my observations,the Bentham Line seems to be carrying more passengers.

I was surprised last month when I was on the line, the train pretty much filled up at Lancaster, and by the time I got off at Long Preston people were standing.

 

[Fisherman80]

I was surprised last month when I was on the line, the train pretty much filled up at Lancaster, and by the time I got off at Long Preston people were standing.

I used the line on Friday to do a return trip from Bingley to Morecambe.
The 1220 ex Leeds had a very healthy number of passengers onboard to Lancaster.
I then got the 1731 from Morecambe to Leeds service and the train filled up at Lancaster......a few people were standing. It was a 142 but what struck me was barely anyone got on/off at the stations between Carnforth and Skipton.
As soon as it pulled into Skipton I reckon three quarters of the passengers got off.
I've been on the 2010 Morecambe to Leeds which has always been quiet but all in all the line does seem busier.

 

[adrock1976]

I guess that makes sense.



The easiest solution would be to launch an "Airport Express" service between Piccadilly and the Airport using modified EMUs. 4tph requiring 4 units + a spare. The remaining capacity could be used to serve the most important long distance destinations. Its not going to happen though!

There are already a few Class 323s that have the layout designed for airport runs, so those could be retained and specially dedicated for that purpose.

 

[Greybeard33]

I mixed my a and b up sorry. Merseyrail do only use 7b typically, though they can go all the way down, there's a 3 and 6 car Board for them. Even with a 6 car though, there's plenty of room at the other end for a diesel to go on . Some NW-Manchester services use 7 to avoid a conflict with a service using 3 or 4 at the same time. There's no other platform for them though there's some aspiration for a platform 8 to be built in the sidings to allow them to terminate . It's very inflexible for Merseyrail having only the one platform and there are often hold ups waiting for 7b to be free.

I have seen a Northern train terminate in 7a at Chester, with Merseyrail using 7b during its layover. Northern normally use the bay platforms 5 and 6, though.

 

[_toommm_]

There are already a few Class 323s that have the layout designed for airport runs, so those could be retained and specially dedicated for that purpose.

But then it's a case of keeping the airport 323s on the airport runs, something I believe Northern Rail struggled with, hence why they just went back into the common pool to operate Glossop and Crewe turns.a

 

[Bantamzen]

There are already a few Class 323s that have the layout designed for airport runs, so those could be retained and specially dedicated for that purpose.

Two problems exist though, one that to dedicate & presumably refurbish some 323s would lock them into those diagrams & of course Northern might want to make it a premium service and charge more to pay for them. The other problem is that currently many passengers are arriving from further afield than Greater Manchester, & might not take well to the idea of being tipped out at Piccadilly or Victoria having likely already made at least one change on their way into Manchester. And in the case of the latter, being tipped off the train, onto the tram to cross Manchester would add anything up to half an hour more along with the inconvenience of dragging suitcases, kids etc onto said tram isn't going to appeal.

There is a good reason why TPE operate the services that they do, providing what is a relatively new & growing business in getting passengers from further afield to Manchester Airport without having to change trains and/or modes. This is attracting more passengers (and of course more revenue), and as capacity increases with the 397 & 802s that will be operating the bulk of the TPE Airport services more people again will use the, especially as Manchester Airport is expanding & expecting even more passengers.

Some people continue to blame the Airport services for the timetable woes that beset the Castlefield Corridor last May, but just some small tweaks have already vastly improved reliability & once 5 car units become the norm hopefully reduced dwell times through the corridor will lead to further improvements still. Now if only the Minister for Transport could be persuaded to sign off on the Piccadilly / Oxford Road improvements that were meant to go hand-in-hand with the Ordsall Chord build....

 

[yorksrob]

I used the line on Friday to do a return trip from Bingley to Morecambe.
The 1220 ex Leeds had a very healthy number of passengers onboard to Lancaster.
I then got the 1731 from Morecambe to Leeds service and the train filled up at Lancaster......a few people were standing. It was a 142 but what struck me was barely anyone got on/off at the stations between Carnforth and Skipton.
As soon as it pulled into Skipton I reckon three quarters of the passengers got off.
I've been on the 2010 Morecambe to Leeds which has always been quiet but all in all the line does seem busier.

That's surprising. There are usually a good few on/off at Bentham when I'm on there.

 

[driver_m]

As has been said many a time, the airport line was always seen as a good way of getting trains out the way of Piccadilly station. A long headshunt of sorts. Micklefield near Leeds is supposed to be the same principle if it ever comes off. Why it gets the abuse on here I'll never know. Where do people want the trains to go instead? Only way to solve this problem now though is to get Oxford Road extended and p15 & p16 built at Piccadilly. If only our useless Transport Secretary could see this .

 

[Bletchleyite]

As has been said many a time, the airport line was always seen as a good way of getting trains out the way of Piccadilly station. A long headshunt of sorts. Micklefield near Leeds is supposed to be the same principle if it ever comes off. Why it gets the abuse on here I'll never know. Where do people want the trains to go instead?

Because as things stand it's a waste of a couple of scarce Class 185s and a waste of capacity through P13/14 at Picc.

If P15/16 had been built first and the rolling stock was available, I would have no objections. It's just all been done the wrong way round.

The answer for now (until those two things are resolved) is as I've pointed out before - mothball the Ordsall Chord and terminate the services from the east in the Picc low-numbered platforms with connections from the high-numbered (not 13-14) ones using a Class 319 of which there are plenty.

The Chord was not a bad idea, it simply should not have been built until the infrastructure (i.e. extended Oxford Road and P15/16) was ready, and should not have been opened until adequate rolling stock (Class 802 and Mk5) was fully in service. There is this tendency in the UK to get a bit excited about service improvements and to put them in before things are ready, and it always goes badly wrong.

 

[Bantamzen]

Because as things stand it's a waste of a couple of scarce Class 185s and a waste of capacity through P13/14 at Picc.

If P15/16 had been built first and the rolling stock was available, I would have no objections. It's just all been done the wrong way round.

The answer for now (until those two things are resolved) is as I've pointed out before - mothball the Ordsall Chord and terminate the services from the east in the Picc low-numbered platforms with connections from the high-numbered (not 13-14) ones using a Class 319 of which there are plenty.

The Chord was not a bad idea, it simply should not have been built until the infrastructure (i.e. extended Oxford Road and P15/16) was ready, and should not have been opened until adequate rolling stock (Class 802 and Mk5) was fully in service. There is this tendency in the UK to get a bit excited about service improvements and to put them in before things are ready, and it always goes badly wrong.

As I have argued before, mothball the Chord & you can forget the required investment for the rest of the Castlefield corridor ever being realised. The Castlefield corridor has needed investment for as long as I can remember using it, and that's a long time. The Chord should in an ideal world be brining the need into sharp focus, and indeed on building it was part of a wider plan. You can thank the penny pinching administration for this. Why build Piccadilly P15/16 or re-design Oxford Road if all you need to do is to cut off the Chord & write off hundreds of millions of pounds? This is exactly how the D(a)fT would see such a situation.

Things are what they are, and with a few small tweaks the concept can be shown to work, and besides new stock is almost here. So why on Earth would you change it now, because as previously suggested the Airport links are growing in popularity? Cut them off at the beginning of their peak use would kill it off stone dead, and at time when the airport is investing to handle anything between 20%-40% more passengers in the not too distant future. All things considered, I'm afraid your idea is about a decade too late.

 

[Fisherman80]

That's surprising. There are usually a good few on/off at Bentham when I'm on there.

Just an observation Rob. There may have been a few getting off in the rear coach but only 1 or 2 in my coach.
It's just pleasing to see the trains busy on this line after years of a rundown in the number of trains.

 

[geoffk]

That should mean the 185s are going back to TPE. That would allow more doubling up, presumably of selected Liverpool-Newcastle services. Much needed extra capacity. 75mph paths for Cumbria-Airport is not great though. I guess there are not enough 158s to run all services?

Will the 185s returning to TPE not release the two hired 170s back to Northern? I assumed they were needed for the Sheffield - Hull service.

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

I'm hoping not everything has been uploaded yet.

Looking at Newcastle to Carlisle, there's a two hour gap without trains between 1723 and 1923, which surely can't be right.
At the moment there are trains at 1723, 1810, 1823 and 1923.

Just had a quick look, and there’s more trains from Carlisle (29) than from Newcastle (26) at present so could possibly a couple need added?

Also an early morning ECS from Hexham to Carlisle is new, runs as 5A04.

 

[Amstel]

Two problems exist though, one that to dedicate & presumably refurbish some 323s would lock them into those diagrams & of course Northern might want to make it a premium service and charge more to pay for them. The other problem is that currently many passengers are arriving from further afield than Greater Manchester, & might not take well to the idea of being tipped out at Piccadilly or Victoria having likely already made at least one change on their way into Manchester. And in the case of the latter, being tipped off the train, onto the tram to cross Manchester would add anything up to half an hour more along with the inconvenience of dragging suitcases, kids etc onto said tram isn't going to appeal.

There is a good reason why TPE operate the services that they do, providing what is a relatively new & growing business in getting passengers from further afield to Manchester Airport without having to change trains and/or modes. This is attracting more passengers (and of course more revenue), and as capacity increases with the 397 & 802s that will be operating the bulk of the TPE Airport services more people again will use the, especially as Manchester Airport is expanding & expecting even more passengers.

Some people continue to blame the Airport services for the timetable woes that beset the Castlefield Corridor last May, but just some small tweaks have already vastly improved reliability & once 5 car units become the norm hopefully reduced dwell times through the corridor will lead to further improvements still. Now if only the Minister for Transport could be persuaded to sign off on the Piccadilly / Oxford Road improvements that were meant to go hand-in-hand with the Ordsall Chord build....

The tweak that's needed is to prevent the holdups at Deansgate by reducing the number of stoppers
to 2 an hour in each direction (that's compatible with the relatively small number of people using it)
and ban diesels from stopping, they take up too much time. I say that as a regular Deansgate user,
but appreciate the common good.

 

[Mathew S]

The tweak that's needed is to prevent the holdups at Deansgate by reducing the number of stoppers
to 2 an hour in each direction (that's compatible with the relatively small number of people using it)
and ban diesels from stopping, they take up too much time. I say that as a regular Deansgate user,
but appreciate the common good.

Or, to play devil's advocate, stop everything at Deansgate; which would also solve the problem and provide more people with a useful interchange onto Metrolink.

 

[yorksrob]

Just an observation Rob. There may have been a few getting off in the rear coach but only 1 or 2 in my coach.
It's just pleasing to see the trains busy on this line after years of a rundown in the number of trains.

Yes indeed. It's always good to see the route busy.

 

[yorksrob]

Just an observation Rob. There may have been a few getting off in the rear coach but only 1 or 2 in my coach.
It's just pleasing to see the trains busy on this line after years of a rundown in the number of trains.

Yes indeed. It's always good to see the route busy.

 

[driver_m]

Mothball the Ordsall Chord. I've heard it all now. Jesus wept.