Northern to introduce a Penalty fare scheme

[Baxenden Bank]

From the press release:

From 6 December, customers travelling without a ticket on a Northern train anywhere between Leeds and Bradford Forster Square, Leeds/Bradford and Ilkley, or Leeds/Bradford and Skipton, could face a penalty fare of £20.

Really, even if they boarded outside the penalty fare area? Do they mean boarding a train at a Penalty Fares Area station i.e. anywhere between Leeds etc as shown on the accompanying map?

Posters explaining penalty fares will be displayed at all stations on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines and leaflets will be handed out to provide further detail about the scheme. For more information please click here.

Except when you click 'here', you get error 404.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

There doesn't seem to be any obvious link to that page from the Northern homepage. I seem to recall that the then Northern Spirit/Arriva Trains Northern trialled a Penalty Fares scheme on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines in the early 2000s, but the scheme was soon shelved.

Typing 'penalty' into the search function on the Northern website brings the following (item two when I searched):

(a link to the search result follows)

2. Information about our Penalty Fares scheme
(Uncategorised)
AT THIS TIME PENALTY FARES ONLY APPLY TO NORTHERN SERVICES ON THE AIREDALE AND WHARFEDALE LINES IN WEST YORKSHIRE. This page gives you advice about Penalty Fares, and how and where to buy your ticket ...

(a copy of the full text of the linked page follows)

AT THIS TIME PENALTY FARES ONLY APPLY TO NORTHERN SERVICES ON THE AIREDALE AND WHARFEDALE LINES IN WEST YORKSHIRE.

This page gives you advice about Penalty Fares, and how and where to buy your ticket for travelling on Northern services.

What are Penalty Fares?

If a passenger gets on a train without a ticket or Promise to Pay notice at a station where ticket buying facilities are available, they may be liable to pay a penalty fare. The penalty is the greater of £20 or twice the full single from the station where they got on the train to the next station at which the train stops. If the passenger wants to travel beyond the next station they must also pay the relevant fare from that station to their final destination.

Examples of when a penalty fare may be charged:

If you:

• travel without a valid ticket

• are unable to produce an appropriate Railcard for a discount ticket

• are aged 16 or over, travelling on a child rate ticket

• travel beyond the destination on your ticket

What is a Promise to Pay notice?

A Promise to Pay notice is a ticket that must be obtained from our ticket vending machines if customers do not have the facility to pay by credit/debit card. The Promise to Pay notice allows customers to board the train with the intention of exchanging the notice at the first opportunity with a revenue officer, or at the next available booking office.

Why do Northern need to introduce Penalty Fares?

Reducing the number of people who travel without a ticket is not only in our interest as

the operator, but also in the interest of our fare-paying customers.

Few of us want to pay more for our tickets because some people avoid paying, and the

loss of income due to people travelling without tickets reduces the money available to invest in a better rail service.

If I do not buy a ticket before travelling, is it an automatic Penalty Fare?

You are responsible for ensuring that you purchase a ticket or obtain a Promise to Pay notice that is valid for your entire journey before travelling, otherwise you may have to pay a Penalty Fare.

Northern is responsible for ensuring that the facility to purchase a ticket or Promise to Pay notice is available.

Can I pay at my destination if I am in a rush?

If you board a train without a valid ticket or Promise to Pay notice you may have to pay a Penalty Fare. If it is shown that your intention was to avoid your fare, then you are breaking the criminal law and you may be liable for prosecution.

Can I pay my Penalty Fare online?

You can, just go to northernrailway.co.uk/paymynotice

What methods of payment can I use to pay a Penalty Fare?

We accept all major credit/debit cards and postal orders.

Is there a right of appeal against a Penalty Fare?

If you wish to appeal against a Penalty Fare you must do so in writing within 21 days of the issue date and send it to the appeals address on the Penalty Fare notice. The appeals body adheres to an agreed Code of Practice (approved by the Department for Transport) in the assessment of all appeals. The Independent Appeals Service will consider all the facts presented to them on appeal and notify the appellant of the outcome.

What if I want to buy a season ticket and the ticket office is closed, or the machine doesn’t sell the ticket I want?

Ticket Vending Machines sell most weekly season tickets for journeys on Northern services. Monthly season ticket holders can renew their ticket provided their details are recorded in our database. If the required destination station is not listed on the ticket machine, then they should purchase a single ticket to their interchange station or use the promise to pay notice.

What happens if I refuse to pay the Penalty Fare?

You will receive a reminder letter advising you of the outstanding sums owed to us.

If you travel on the railway with the intent of avoiding paying the fare then you may be prosecuted under criminal law. The current maximum penalty upon conviction is a £1,000 fine and/or three months imprisonment.

REMEMBER

Where the facility to do so has been provided, you must purchase a ticket or obtain a Promise to Pay notice before you travel.

If you cannot produce a valid ticket or Promise to Pay notice when asked to do so you may be charged a Penalty Fare (minimum £20).

Do you have any questions?

For further information about Penalty Fares on Northern services please contact our Customer Experience Centre.

Telephone: 0800 200 6060

Calls are free, calls may be recorded.

Email: [email protected]

Ways to buy a ticket

Tickets can be purchased from the Northern website at northernrailway.co.uk or via the Northern app.

Trouble reading the above?

You are able to listen to an audio recording of our Penalty Fares Scheme using the YouTube video below.

 

[Starmill]

I notice that Paul Barnfield has decided to use outright lies to support this policy now:

Paul Barnfield, Regional Director for Northern, said:
...
“If they are unable to do either of these then, from 6 December, our authorised collectors will be on hand at stations along the routes to either issue £20 fines or ask customers to pay double the cost of a single ticket to their destination.”

https://northern-newsroom.prgloo.com/news/penalty-trial-to-tackle-west-yorkshire-train-fare-evaders

It is Mr Barnfield's job to know what Penalty Fares are and the rules that govern them. Therefore, he cannot be ignorant of the fact that his statement is a lie:

What is a penalty fare?
A penalty fare is not a fine. The penalty fare will either be £20 or twice the full single fare from the station where you got on to the next station at which the train stops, whichever is the bigger amount.

http://consumer-rights.org/guidance/transport/transport/public-transport/trains/train-penalty-fares

10.4 Introduction to Penalty Fares

A Penalty Fare (PF) is a higher than normal fare chargeable to a passenger who has made an error with respect to purchasing a ticket. It is not a fine.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...guide-section-10-disputes.71873/#post-1220747

Mr Barnfield also makes this claim:

These machines offer a full range of fares – including discounts.

http://consumer-rights.org/guidance/transport/transport/public-transport/trains/train-penalty-fares/

A large number of tickets are not for sale at these ticket machines so they cannot possibly fit the definition of selling a 'full range' of fares.

They do not sell:

-Tickets with a staff discount

f you wish to travel using a privilege rate (Q-rate) ticket, you must buy that ticket from a ticket office. At present it is not possible to buy them online, by phone, or from ticket machines.

https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/files/Publications/services/rst/RST_Where_Can_I_Go.pdf

-Tickets from other stations or for other dates

However at station ticket machines you can generally only buy ‘walk-on' (ie not advance) tickets for travel that or the next day, and you can only buy tickets for journeys from that station.

http://www.railfuture.org.uk/Finding+the+best+price

-Rangers and rovers, Advance tickets or duo / groupsave tickets

[Image says 'this machine cannot offer Advance tickets, tickets from other stations, special promotional tickets, rovers and rangers or discounted tickets for two or more people travelling together.']

Again it is his job to understand this, not tell lies about it.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I can't decide whether Northern regard themselves as above the law (or rules / regulations), are hopelessly incompetent or are simply thick. Any suggestions?

 

[ainsworth74]

I can't help but feel Hanlon's Razor applies here:

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

 

[Bantamzen]

It looks like a local MP is extremely unhappy about this!
https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co...-of-franchise-over-new-fines-policy-1-8871387

(How I hate those ad-riddled local newspaper sites)

Anyway, lots of hot air from a less than useless MP whose only guarantee of a job is that people in this area don't like voting for any other party. I'm sure Arriva are quaking in their boots at his threat to do "everything in his power" to remove them at the next franchise. This from an MP that sends most of his time talking waffle in the House to stop certain bills from being heard and voted on. I wouldn't hold him to his word, heck I wouldn't buy a second hand car from the man.

All of this does beg a question though. I can understand strong feelings against Northern on here from members of staff, but from a wider perspective they have been improving for most passengers and for most this new policy simply means a trip to the ticket machine before getting onboard. Its really not a hardship for most, and is pretty standard on rail networks around the world. So like I have said previously, I cautiously welcome this scheme providing of course they ensure that passengers are given at least some more information on what is expected of them, and the policy is handled sensibly especially in the first few months as it beds in. So why doesn't everyone at least see just how it actually works out, instead of leaping to conclusions and making assumptions? I for one as a user of these lines daily be very interested to see just how it pans out, and if it works and reduces the chronic fare evasion I see on a regular basis I will welcome it.

 

[Starmill]

So why doesn't everyone at least see just how it actually works out, instead of leaping to conclusions and making assumptions?

Forgive me for implying that you might be being slightly naive here, but have you had any experience with the current custom and practice? It involves agency staff who are given little or no training, notices which threaten prosecution but which are printed out so as to make the customer think they're being charged an £80 fine and customers who have done absolutely nothing wrong at all being forced to hand over their details and accept an unpaid fares notice as the officers flat out refuse to accept payments themselves.

Now, consider the evidence. Have Northern re-staffed any of the stations in the trial PF area? No? Have they installed any new machines that take cash? No? Have they put up prominent signage at every entrance to every station 3 weeks in advance that makes the start date clear? No?

So, you can see that the conclusion that has been reasonably interpreted here is that Northern will be running the scheme in the similar underhanded way that they currently operate and that they will not be following the necessary rules about signage. This could be incorrect, but is it reasonable to give them the benefit of the doubt, based on the availabile evidence? Probably not.

 

[furlong]

Have they put up prominent signage at every entrance to every station 3 weeks in advance that makes the start date clear? No?

If someone has actual evidence that the requirements for the introduction of the scheme have not been met in a significant way, make sure the DfT is aware as they might then have to postpone the scheme's introduction until the company complies.

 

[pemma]

I notice that Paul Barnfield has decided to use outright lies to support this policy now:


https://northern-newsroom.prgloo.com/news/penalty-trial-to-tackle-west-yorkshire-train-fare-evaders

It is Mr Barnfield's job to know what Penalty Fares are and the rules that govern them. Therefore, he cannot be ignorant of the fact that his statement is a lie:


http://consumer-rights.org/guidance/transport/transport/public-transport/trains/train-penalty-fares


https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...guide-section-10-disputes.71873/#post-1220747

Mr Barnfield also makes this claim:


http://consumer-rights.org/guidance/transport/transport/public-transport/trains/train-penalty-fares/

A large number of tickets are not for sale at these ticket machines so they cannot possibly fit the definition of selling a 'full range' of fares.

They do not sell:

-Tickets with a staff discount

https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/files/Publications/services/rst/RST_Where_Can_I_Go.pdf

-Tickets from other stations or for other dates

http://www.railfuture.org.uk/Finding+the+best+price

-Rangers and rovers, Advance tickets or duo / groupsave tickets
View attachment 39713
[Image says 'this machine cannot offer Advance tickets, tickets from other stations, special promotional tickets, rovers and rangers or discounted tickets for two or more people travelling together.']

Again it is his job to understand this, not tell lies about it.

Perhaps knowledge people in the West Yorkshire area needs to write letters to their MPs?

 

[island]

From the press release:


Really, even if they boarded outside the penalty fare area? Do they mean boarding a train at a Penalty Fares Area station i.e. anywhere between Leeds etc as shown on the accompanying map?

“Could” face a Penalty Fare. Not “will”.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

“Could” face a Penalty Fare. Not “will”.

Could Not. Only passengers boarding a Penalty Fare train at a Penalty Fare station where ticketing facilities are available MAY receive a Penalty Fare.

It does raise the issue. Dear Sir, would you like a £20 Penalty Fare, even though you are not really eligible for one, or would you like a £80 Penalty Fake instead.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Dear Northern.

Here is the wording you require.

No charge.

Penalty Fare Warning
If travelling from a Penalty Fare Station, on a Penalty Fare Train, you must buy your ticket (or get a permit to travel) before you board the train where ticket or permit issuing facilities are available. If an Authorised Penalty Fares Collector had been checking tickets you may have been charged a £20 Penalty Fare or twice the full single fare to the next station stop, whichever is the greater. You must buy a valid ticket before boarding a train, if ticket issuing facilities are available.
RSP 9299/100/PEN

It is not a hidden concept. It is printed, in red, on the back of standard Rail Settlement Plan ticket stock. Northern are part of RSP I assume!

 

[dave87016]

The number of times I have boarded at my local northern station unstaffed , and as no ticket office I board the train and sit in the rear carriage guard comes round I ask for a Day Ranger without even trying it's either " I don't know how to issue them " or get it from ticket office when you get off the train "

I have told and shown guards the issuing code but they just can't be bothered " faffing" around on their machine for it and it annoys me

I boarded and asked for a North West Flexi Rover again same thing happened I had to change at Bolton so I went upstairs and explained to staff at the barrier what had happened thankfully they let me through and I bought it from Bolton ticket office but not all barrier staff are as understanding and I was grateful to them and upon passing through the barrier after purchasing it I thanked them

 

[Bantamzen]

Forgive me for implying that you might be being slightly naive here, but have you had any experience with the current custom and practice? It involves agency staff who are given little or no training, notices which threaten prosecution but which are printed out so as to make the customer think they're being charged an £80 fine and customers who have done absolutely nothing wrong at all being forced to hand over their details and accept an unpaid fares notice as the officers flat out refuse to accept payments themselves.

Now, consider the evidence. Have Northern re-staffed any of the stations in the trial PF area? No? Have they installed any new machines that take cash? No? Have they put up prominent signage at every entrance to every station 3 weeks in advance that makes the start date clear? No?

So, you can see that the conclusion that has been reasonably interpreted here is that Northern will be running the scheme in the similar underhanded way that they currently operate and that they will not be following the necessary rules about signage. This could be incorrect, but is it reasonable to give them the benefit of the doubt, based on the availabile evidence? Probably not.

Well that gave me a laugh at least! Naive??? I have been using Northern servies almost daily for almost 15 years now, so I can safely say I have had plenty of experience with FP staff. Now had you paid more attention to my posts instead of jumping down my throat, you may have noted I said I cautiously welcomed the new policy pending on how it is managed. I am pretty sure Arriva are more than aware of the problems they have had with FP staff and customers, so with this they have the perfect opportunity to handle it differently. And by using a couple of lines to start with, they can test it out and gauge the public's response. If they mess it up, I will condemn them along with everybody else. But unlike some I am prepared to at least give them a chance.

But frankly given the amount of fare evasion I have witnessed myself over the years, something more drastic was needed. Some members here often bemoan Northern for their levels of subsidy and their spending plans, but when they try to plug a revenue leak they moan about this too. A theme is developing here.

 

[Gareth Marston]

(How I hate those ad-riddled local newspaper sites)

Anyway, lots of hot air from a less than useless MP whose only guarantee of a job is that people in this area don't like voting for any other party. I'm sure Arriva are quaking in their boots at his threat to do "everything in his power" to remove them at the next franchise. This from an MP that sends most of his time talking waffle in the House to stop certain bills from being heard and voted on. I wouldn't hold him to his word, heck I wouldn't buy a second hand car from the man.

All of this does beg a question though. I can understand strong feelings against Northern on here from members of staff, but from a wider perspective they have been improving for most passengers and for most this new policy simply means a trip to the ticket machine before getting onboard. Its really not a hardship for most, and is pretty standard on rail networks around the world. So like I have said previously, I cautiously welcome this scheme providing of course they ensure that passengers are given at least some more information on what is expected of them, and the policy is handled sensibly especially in the first few months as it beds in. So why doesn't everyone at least see just how it actually works out, instead of leaping to conclusions and making assumptions? I for one as a user of these lines daily be very interested to see just how it pans out, and if it works and reduces the chronic fare evasion I see on a regular basis I will welcome it.

A lot of people I suspect are just bellyaching and trying to pick holes in it because they don't like Arriva (for whatever reason) . However the principal is absolutely right for urban rail systems . Local fares in the North of England are dirt cheap and the vast bulk will all be local anytime or off peak day returns I don't get what the problem is buying before you board? The truth could well be people don't like the prospect of a free ride being taken away? or they want to be turn up at the last minute and be sat down to be served a ticket?

 

[WelshBluebird]

I don't get what the problem is buying before you board?

The main problem is imo, just as with the South Wales valleys, the facilities are either not there or not good enough in many places.

I hold the same opinion regarding ATW, you need to actually provide decent facilities first, and then introduce stricter measures regarding buying before you board (I found it very ironic last year when ATW were putting posters up at unmanned stations with no ticketing facilities about buying before you board!).

 

[Moonshot]

A lot of people I suspect are just bellyaching and trying to pick holes in it because they don't like Arriva (for whatever reason) . However the principal is absolutely right for urban rail systems . Local fares in the North of England are dirt cheap and the vast bulk will all be local anytime or off peak day returns I don't get what the problem is buying before you board? The truth could well be people don't like the prospect of a free ride being taken away? or they want to be turn up at the last minute and be sat down to be served a ticket?

This is very true.....but regardless what a minority of posters think, the reality is that Northern are introducing a penalty fare scheme. Of course the vast majority of passengers will actually have nothing to worry about, as they simply pay their fares as they are required to , and use the train as a simple way to get from A to B.

 

[Karl]

The number of times I have boarded at my local northern station unstaffed , and as no ticket office I board the train and sit in the rear carriage guard comes round I ask for a Day Ranger without even trying it's either " I don't know how to issue them " or get it from ticket office when you get off the train "

I have told and shown guards the issuing code but they just can't be bothered " faffing" around on their machine for it and it annoys me

I've found the Northern guards very helpful on my route. I've even been able to buy the Northern £10 Day Ranger ticket from them half a dozen times this year and be able able to save my newspaper tokens for my next purchase. Admittedly some can't find the ticket but they are willing to try.

 

[Moonshot]

I've found the Northern guards very helpful on my route. I've even been able to buy the Northern £10 Day Ranger ticket from them half a dozen times this year and be able able to save my newspaper tokens for my next purchase. Admittedly some can't find the ticket but they are willing to try.

The range of tickets available on guards machines is mindboggling to say the least....there have been occassions when I have been asked for an unusual one and I have had to come back to the pax later on in the journey after having interogated my machine in the back cab !!!

 

[pemma]

Now, consider the evidence. Have Northern re-staffed any of the stations in the trial PF area? No? Have they installed any new machines that take cash? No? Have they put up prominent signage at every entrance to every station 3 weeks in advance that makes the start date clear? No?

Two problems I can think of with the 'promise to pay' tickets:
1. If there's only a single ticket machine and it plays up for a few minutes just before a train is due to depart at a quiet time then a single passenger might arrive at their destination legitimately claiming they couldn't get anything from the machine, despite the TVM currently showing itself online and operational.
2. What if you have a season ticket for your usual commute but you're making a longer journey? Now logically if they have a promise to pay notice from station x and a season ticket from station x to station y than at station z you should be able to buy a ticket from y to z. However, would appropriate training be given or would some robot RPI accuse a passenger of short faring?

 

[Gareth Marston]

The main problem is imo, just as with the South Wales valleys, the facilities are either not there or not good enough in many places.

I hold the same opinion regarding ATW, you need to actually provide decent facilities first, and then introduce stricter measures regarding buying before you board (I found it very ironic last year when ATW were putting posters up at unmanned stations with no ticketing facilities about buying before you board!).

Agree about the facilities up to a point*- however my understanding is Northern have committed to a hefty upgrade of such facilities to go hand in hand with the new policy.

*there's plenty of people who steadfastly ignore open booking offices at non barrier stations. I'm aware of people who have been at the station here over 10-15 minutes before their train and even come in and used the toilet who have made no effort whatsoever on days when were quiet but have then whined at the Conductors to let them have discounted tickets on board because of "the queue in the booking office". Only after being challenged of course. Pay when challenged is rife away from closed systems. Ive even had some one come up to me on a Saturday evening in my local complaining about having to queue to get a ticket at the barriers in Shrewsbury -I had all the usual tickets are a con blah blah you don't make it easy to purchase them, the conductor didn't come round i was late for whatever it was because i had to queue etc -I recognized them as having gone up Saturday lunchtime and stood on the platform with a friend who did similar. I asked about her friend by name as i knew it and pointed out they had plenty of opportunity to buy before they boarded she soon shut up.

 

[Moonshot]

Agree about the facilities up to a point*- however my understanding is Northern have committed to a hefty upgrade of such facilities to go hand in hand with the new policy.

*there's plenty of people who steadfastly ignore open booking offices at non barrier stations. I'm aware of people who have been at the station here over 10-15 minutes before their train and even come in and used the toilet who have made no effort whatsoever on days when were quiet but have then whined at the Conductors to let them have discounted tickets on board because of "the queue in the booking office". Only after being challenged of course. Pay when challenged is rife away from closed systems. Ive even had some one come up to me on a Saturday evening in my local complaining about having to queue to get a ticket at the barriers in Shrewsbury -I had all the usual tickets are a con blah blah you don't make it easy to purchase them, the conductor didn't come round i was late for whatever it was because i had to queue etc -I recognized them as having gone up Saturday lunchtime and stood on the platform with a friend who did similar. I asked about her friend by name as i knew it and pointed out they had plenty of opportunity to buy before they boarded she soon shut up.

" Pay when challenged " is indeed common, but the " queue " at the office excuse is one that I tend to accept as I have found its simply easier just to sell the pax a ticket rather than get into debates about boarding trains without a ticket. Its very easy to let a " red mist " descend and impact on your judgement when you have door duties every 3 minutes or so

 

[WelshBluebird]

Agree about the facilities up to a point*- however my understanding is Northern have committed to a hefty upgrade of such facilities to go hand in hand with the new policy.

But this is the problem isn't it.

First of all, do I believe that every single station will get decent facilities? Nope I don't. And when I say decent facilities I mean more than just a TVM on one platform that isn't easily visible or easily accessible from the other platform.

Secondly, as I said in my previous post, the facilities should be put in place BEFORE any new policy, not after.

*there's plenty of people who steadfastly ignore open booking offices at non barrier stations. I'm aware of people who have been at the station here over 10-15 minutes before their train and even come in and used the toilet who have made no effort whatsoever on days when were quiet but have then whined at the Conductors to let them have discounted tickets on board because of "the queue in the booking office". Only after being challenged of course. Pay when challenged is rife away from closed systems. Ive even had some one come up to me on a Saturday evening in my local complaining about having to queue to get a ticket at the barriers in Shrewsbury -I had all the usual tickets are a con blah blah you don't make it easy to purchase them, the conductor didn't come round i was late for whatever it was because i had to queue etc -I recognized them as having gone up Saturday lunchtime and stood on the platform with a friend who did similar. I asked about her friend by name as i knew it and pointed out they had plenty of opportunity to buy before they boarded she soon shut up.

Of course there are people who will try to skip the fare whatever you do, but there are things the ToC and the rail industry can do to help themselves and they mainly are around making the options for buying a ticket better, to the extent that things like "having to queue" etc become a thing of the past. Things like Oyster, mobile ticketing, improving TVM software, actually putting decent facilities at ALL stations etc.

What we have now is a situation where some of the "excuses" you list do actually happen and are sometimes valid reasons for not having a ticket. So if you can make ticketing so quick and painless for everyone, regardless of which station they board at or which journey they are doing or which ToC they are travelling with, then those genuine cases disappear and the only people using those "excuses" are those trying to play the system.

 

[pemma]

I'm aware of people who have been at the station here over 10-15 minutes before their train and even come in and used the toilet who have made no effort whatsoever on days when were quiet but have then whined at the Conductors to let them have discounted tickets on board because of "the queue in the booking office".

You have toilets as well as ticket offices at category E stations in Wales! In the North we're lucky if a C2 category station has toilets and if a category E station does have a ticket office it'll close at around 1pm on weekdays and might not open at all at the weekends.

Unless they tell you they plan to buy a ticket on the train how do you know that the people who turn up and don't buy a ticket don't already have a ticket?

 

[Moonshot]

You have toilets as well as ticket offices at category E stations in Wales! In the North we're lucky if a C2 category station has toilets and if a category E station does have a ticket office it'll close at around 1pm on weekdays and might not open at all at the weekends.

Sometimes I find that an office which is supposed to be open has closed for a while for operational reasons. This is not always apparent when I m patrolling a train , so it does add to the problem of boarding a train without a ticket.

 

[pemma]

Sometimes I find that an office which is supposed to be open has closed for a while for operational reasons. This is not always apparent when I m patrolling a train , so it does add to the problem of boarding a train without a ticket.

Ticket offices are sometimes closed because the member of staff due to staff the ticket office phoned in sick and there's no-one to stand in. Sometimes, but not always, such closures are listed on journeycheck.com. Also Northern don't always publicise scheduled closures of ticket offices for maintenance or refurbishment and I don't think they've given notice at any stations when they've planned to remove the old Parkeon TVMs ahead of the installation of a new machine.

 

[Moonshot]

Ticket offices are sometimes closed because the member of staff due to staff the ticket office phoned in sick and there's no-one to stand in. Sometimes, but not always, such closures are listed on journeycheck.com. Also Northern don't always publicise scheduled closures of ticket offices for maintenance or refurbishment and I don't think they've given notice at any stations when they've planned to remove the old Parkeon TVMs ahead of the installation of a new machine.

Indeed.....so as you can see, a "one size fits all policy" isnt necessarily the all singing all dancing way of collecting revenue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also Northern don't always publicise scheduled closures of ticket offices for maintenance or refurbishment and I don't think they've given notice at any stations when they've planned to remove the old Parkeon TVMs ahead of the installation of a new machine.

There are two possible words to describe that - "incompetence" or "laziness", or indeed a bit of both.

It really is not hard.

 

[Moonshot]

There are two possible words to describe that - "incompetence" or "laziness", or indeed a bit of both.

It really is not hard.

Not quite sure that the scenario of not publicising scheduled office closures is correct.....from my experience as actual frontline staff, its always been well known. The issue of unscheduled closures for whatever reason is a little trickier

 

[Gareth Marston]

This is very true.....but regardless what a minority of posters think, the reality is that Northern are introducing a penalty fare scheme. Of course the vast majority of passengers will actually have nothing to worry about, as they simply pay their fares as they are required to , and use the train as a simple way to get from A to B.

True there will be a PF system in operation soon on some lines - there will be the bellyaching for a while headline in the local rag -"i dropped my little Jimmy off to meet friends in Leeds and he didn't have a chance to buy a ticket because a cat crossed the road in front of my car making us late and a nasty man fined him" but the message will get out.