Northern to introduce a Penalty fare scheme

[Bantamzen]

The notices are going up already, I forgot to check at Baildon but there are ones on each platform at Guiseley this morning.

On the wider issue of the PFs, given the short level of notice I'm sure Northern crews will be able to use their discretion for a while, especially as this is not yet a network wide policy. We only hope that the contracted-out staff are given similar leeway. However I cautiously welcome the scheme, the level of fare evasion runs to something like £200M (and probably a lot more) per year and this needs to be addressed. If that means investing in new technology (even at low flow stations), and new policies to not only stop the current evaders, but discourage any new ones then that is worth it in my mind.

 

[xotGD]

I pointed this out a while ago, but Northern's website department think this started some time back:



https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/penalty-fares

Good job on your Capslock and all that, but what about explaining which stations 'the Airdeale and Wharfedale lines' actually include. Presumably the final part of that sentence signifies that Skipton and Cononley are excluded.

Or better still, West Yorkshire day rangers become valid to Skipton!

 

[Moonshot]

The notices are going up already, I forgot to check at Baildon but there are ones on each platform at Guiseley this morning.

On the wider issue of the PFs, given the short level of notice I'm sure Northern crews will be able to use their discretion for a while, especially as this is not yet a network wide policy. We only hope that the contracted-out staff are given similar leeway. However I cautiously welcome the scheme, the level of fare evasion runs to something like £200M (and probably a lot more) per year and this needs to be addressed. If that means investing in new technology (even at low flow stations), and new policies to not only stop the current evaders, but discourage any new ones then that is worth it in my mind.

£200 million per year ? I assume that is Network wide ?

 

[Bantamzen]

£200 million per year ? I assume that is Network wide ?

That's the national figure quoted on Northern's site:

It is estimated that fare evasion costs the rail industry over £200 million a year.

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/legal/fines-penalties

(under the Myth Busting section)

 

[Moonshot]

That's the national figure quoted on Northern's site:



https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/legal/fines-penalties

(under the Myth Busting section)

Right...so a quick back of the envelope calculation suggest 2% of rail fare revenue goes uncollected ....how does that compare with income tax and national insurance ?

 

[Bantamzen]

Right...so a quick back of the envelope calculation suggest 2% of rail fare revenue goes uncollected ....how does that compare with income tax and national insurance ?

Well tax revenue in 2016-17 came in at around £716Bn, with evasion currently estimated at around £35Bn. So another envelope calculation brings that in at just under 5%. So its proportionality more, but nonetheless fare evasion is a considerable amount and not something that can be ignored, especially for companies receiving subsidies. Isn't one of Northern's franchise agreements to proactively reduce fare evasion?

 

[Moonshot]

Well tax revenue in 2016-17 came in at around £716Bn, with evasion currently estimated at around £35Bn. So another envelope calculation brings that in at just under 5%. So its proportionality more, but nonetheless fare evasion is a considerable amount and not something that can be ignored, especially for companies receiving subsidies. Isn't one of Northern's franchise agreements to proactively reduce fare evasion?

It is , but of course no matter how good the revenue protection regime is, there will always be some that just doesnt get collected for whatever reason. Thos who think that the railway will ever get to the figure of 100% of due revenue collected are simply deluding themselves.

 

[Bantamzen]

It is , but of course no matter how good the revenue protection regime is, there will always be some that just doesnt get collected for whatever reason. Thos who think that the railway will ever get to the figure of 100% of due revenue collected are simply deluding themselves.

This is true, but the point was that Northern have to be seen doing more & producing results. Its not enough just to say "it happens", especially where for much of the franchise's span much of the network relied on a combination of passenger honesty & the ability of crew to reach all passengers to sell them tickets for revenue. An interesting statistic would be to compare the levels of estimated evasion across TOCs to see what effect differing levels of revenue protection had on the percentage of revenue loss.

 

[Moonshot]

This is true, but the point was that Northern have to be seen doing more & producing results. Its not enough just to say "it happens", especially where for much of the franchise's span much of the network relied on a combination of passenger honesty & the ability of crew to reach all passengers to sell them tickets for revenue. An interesting statistic would be to compare the levels of estimated evasion across TOCs to see what effect differing levels of revenue protection had on the percentage of revenue loss.

That would seem to me to refer to what might be best practise.....the number of stations on Northerns Network with barriers has shot up in the last 18 month or so. My own observations as a Northern Guard would suggest a very chunky number of fare evaders are those going just one stop up the line.

 

[Bantamzen]

That would seem to me to refer to what might be best practise.....the number of stations on Northerns Network with barriers has shot up in the last 18 month or so. My own observations as a Northern Guard would suggest a very chunky number of fare evaders are those going just one stop up the line.

I wouldn't disagree with this. Certainly in the days before barriers it was, for example, obvious that a number of passengers boarding at Bradford Forster Square were making bee-lines for the front of the 333s to get off at Frizinghall. So much so that some guards opted to dispatch the services from the front of the unit rather than the rear on occasions to catch them out. Post barriers, this doesn't seem to be as much of an issue. However barriers at larger stations where interchanges are available don't seem to deter some, these days I commute to and from Leeds and I'm still surprised by the number of people boarding Aire & Wharfe services and asking to buy tickets. Perhaps this is in some small way why these lines are the first to go live with the penalty fares? It also suggests that there are some passengers still managing to get away without paying full fares this way.

The way I see it is under this new scheme even someone avoiding barriers on an interchanging route will no longer be able to claim they got on at Kirkstall / Cross Gates / Cottingley etc, etc meaning that Northern will be able to collect the full fares, and where people still try it on collect the penalty fare. Maybe in time this will reduce the need for the outsourced staff, and any methods deployed by them that cause issues with the travelling public? I guess we'll have to wait and see, though it would be interesting to get feedback from crew like yourself on whether it seems to be making a real difference.

 

[Moonshot]

I wouldn't disagree with this. Certainly in the days before barriers it was, for example, obvious that a number of passengers boarding at Bradford Forster Square were making bee-lines for the front of the 333s to get off at Frizinghall. So much so that some guards opted to dispatch the services from the front of the unit rather than the rear on occasions to catch them out. Post barriers, this doesn't seem to be as much of an issue. However barriers at larger stations where interchanges are available don't seem to deter some, these days I commute to and from Leeds and I'm still surprised by the number of people boarding Aire & Wharfe services and asking to buy tickets. Perhaps this is in some small way why these lines are the first to go live with the penalty fares? It also suggests that there are some passengers still managing to get away without paying full fares this way.

The way I see it is under this new scheme even someone avoiding barriers on an interchanging route will no longer be able to claim they got on at Kirkstall / Cross Gates / Cottingley etc, etc meaning that Northern will be able to collect the full fares, and where people still try it on collect the penalty fare. Maybe in time this will reduce the need for the outsourced staff, and any methods deployed by them that cause issues with the travelling public? I guess we'll have to wait and see, though it would be interesting to get feedback from crew like yourself on whether it seems to be making a real difference.

A bit of feedback from me you can have right now.........

1 - Looking at the guards role from a totally objective view, releasing us from door duties gives us a bit more time to collect revenues which might otherwise go uncollected.

2 - I have no qualms about selling tickets on board to passengers who have got on where facilities were available.....my view is that an at seat service for passengers is good customer service, and gives me a bit of commission for doing so.

3 - The overwhelming majority of passengers in peak am are heading towards stations with barriers....if they havent got a ticket by then, there is a time penalty for queueing up for one.

 

[Starmill]

On the wider issue of the PFs, given the short level of notice I'm sure Northern crews will be able to use their discretion for a while, especially as this is not yet a network wide policy

The whole point of a penalty fare scheme is that it eliminates the inconsistencies created by discretion. I'm not saying discretion is a bad thing, quite the opposite. But through PF scheme is being undermined before it has even begun by inadequate information provision.

 

[xotGD]

The penny has dropped for me - this 'promise to pay' business is really a 'proves which station you got on at' chitty to stop short faring when you pay on arrival at Leeds or Skipton.

 

[30907]

"If you are wishing to pay by cash at a card only TVM you must obtain a Promise to Pay notice"

Take Saltaire as an example - is a typical passenger catching a train in the Skipton direction really going to know to wander over to the Leeds platform to visit the singular TVM to obtain a PTP?

Not ideal I agree, but isn't there about to be a TVM at the top of the Leeds-bound slope (OOU when I was there 10 days ago), in which case it's hardly out of the way unless you are coming from the George St area (which not many people do)?
Crossflatts would be a good example (unless it now has machines on both platforms) - or Steeton which has already been mentioned (let alone Cononley on a bad day).

 

[BurtonM]

The 'anyone want to buy a ticket' thing is IMO, not acceptable as it's potentially generating fare evasion. Since the new uniforms have come in, most of the guards on the Manchester-Huddersfield services I frequent have changed from inspecting to 'anyone need a ticket'.
Huddersfield and Man Vic are gated (well you can still get out the back of Victoria), and I can't speak for the Yorkshire end, but at the Manchester end there seems to be an issue with fare dodging, particularly young people in the evenings when stations are mostly unstaffed. On regular occasions I see the same group of youths get on the train at Stalybridge, then get off at Ashton and run out of the station. I've also seen other youths being told off by PCSOs and told they can't get on trains towards Manchester (I figure they'd get stopped by some authority?), and once I saw a group holding up a Northern service where the staff didn't want them on board for some reason by repeatedly getting on and off different doors of the double unit while some security type and the guard chased them around.
The problem isn't going to go away either as there's no way these kids are going to buy tickets, they just want a free ride around East Manchester. The guards don't bother with them either. There's a couple that get on at Ashton, make a terrible/comically obvious attempt at 'hiding' from the guard (I can see them from the other end of a 156!), by hiding in the toilet as the guard passes, then when he opens the doors at Vic they walk to the front of the train to get off, pull their caps down over their faces and leave Victoria through the arena car park exit.
The only thing Northern can do is put more staff around to check tickets, and/or not have the guards doing revenue as it creates a loophole for these youths where they just don't buy tickets. Every station from Man Vic to Greenfield (if not further) has at least a TVM if not a booking office. In the case of Stalybridge the office doesn't close until 7:30pm.
None of the stations from Ashton to Greenfield can easily be gated either for various reasons. They all have at least a TVM though.
The problem is made worse by the fact all the guard can do is chuck them off the train (if they're on it), and considering most of them only want to do a one-stop journey (whatever that is) it's basically useless unless one guard sees multiple repeat offenses - and even then it's unlikely they'll do anything for what the inconvenience would be to any other passengers/the network. Some surprise ticket checks and exclusion orders would do well.

 

[BurtonM]

Also - I watch with interest to see how long it takes the TVMs in places such as Ardwick, the Stockport parly line, and the rougher parts of the Glossop line to get vandalised.

 

[Starmill]

The one at Bramley was vandalised before it was commissioned...

 

[Bantamzen]

A bit of feedback from me you can have right now.........

1 - Looking at the guards role from a totally objective view, releasing us from door duties gives us a bit more time to collect revenues which might otherwise go uncollected.

2 - I have no qualms about selling tickets on board to passengers who have got on where facilities were available.....my view is that an at seat service for passengers is good customer service, and gives me a bit of commission for doing so.

3 - The overwhelming majority of passengers in peak am are heading towards stations with barriers....if they havent got a ticket by then, there is a time penalty for queueing up for one.

Thanks for that, it's interesting to have a guard's perspective.

The whole point of a penalty fare scheme is that it eliminates the inconsistencies created by discretion. I'm not saying discretion is a bad thing, quite the opposite. But through PF scheme is being undermined before it has even begun by inadequate information provision.

I don't disagree, but like with any new scheme, especially one that has had little publicity so far save the posters you need time to allow passengers to adjust. As yet I've seen nothing anyway to say how a Promise To Pay will be obtained from the TVMs, or even what they will have printed on them. Will they simply be printable with one touch and just display the originating station, or will passengers have to go through the usual ticket buying process and then at the payment screen select a pay on-board option? Its not clear from what Northern have put out, and as a season ticket holder I haven't yet had recourse to use the new TVM at Baildon yet. I do plan to use it this week though, as I've some tickets to pick up for Thursday although annoyingly when ordering through NR/TPE (its a TPE only journey) Baildon was not offered as a station to be able to use for pick-ups. So I don't know if that's simply Northern forgetting to pass live TVM locations on, or if they are waiting for a software update that will facilitate issuing of promise to pay before updating the relevant databases.

 

[sheff1]

The 'anyone want to buy a ticket' thing is IMO, not acceptable as it's potentially generating fare evasion....

I think it is a good idea in the circumstances which prevail. The vast majority of people do want to pay (or at worst will pay without murmur if asked)*. Far better to collect as many fares from them as possible than to attempt to get something out of the sort of people you described who clearly have no intention of paying.

The best way to deal with the latter group is the practice I have witnessed elsewhere - a thorough check by a large group of inspectors, often plain clothed with some being armed. Most committed dodgers would soon get the message. Not likely to happen here though.

* Round here, at least, not sure about Manchester.

 

[Moonshot]

I think it is a good idea in the circumstances which prevail. The vast majority of people do want to pay (or at worst will pay without murmur if asked)*. Far better to collect as many fares from them as possible than to attempt to get something out of the sort of people you described who clearly have no intention of paying.

The best way to deal with the latter group is the practice I have witnessed elsewhere - a thorough check by a large group of inspectors, often plain clothed with some being armed. Most committed dodgers would soon get the message. Not likely to happen here though.

* Round here, at least, not sure about Manchester.

Absolutely correct......im my experience, there is an overwhelming majority of pax who have got on a train without a ticket for whatever reason but have no intention of evading the fare. The " Cant pay wont pay " brigade will eventually become a cropper. Personally I m quite happy to issue UPFNs, but this is not the easiest thing to do on a service when the vast majority of these are travelling one stop only.

 

[Bungle965]

Northern have issued a press release on the introduction of the penalty fare scheme.
Interesting that if the ticket that you want isn't on the machine you have to get a ticket to your 'Interchange' station or get a promise to pay ticket.
https://northern-newsroom.prgloo.com/news/penalty-trial-to-tackle-west-yorkshire-train-fare-evaders

Train operator Northern is getting ready to launch the latest phase of its campaign to encourage all customers to buy their travel before they board the train.

The latest phase of the campaign is to introduce the nationally-recognised penalty fares system on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines in West and North Yorkshire.

From 6 December, customers travelling without a ticket on a Northern train anywhere between Leeds and Bradford Forster Square, Leeds/Bradford and Ilkley, or Leeds/Bradford and Skipton, could face a penalty fare of £20.

Paul Barnfield, Regional Director for Northern, said: “The penalty fares are a natural extension of the Buy Before You Board Campaign we launched last year....

Sam

 

[Tim R-T-C]

The 'anyone want to buy a ticket' thing is IMO, not acceptable as it's potentially generating fare evasion. Since the new uniforms have come in, most of the guards on the Manchester-Huddersfield services I frequent have changed from inspecting to 'anyone need a ticket'.

But on busy trains heading for terminals with ticket barriers, it is much better for the fare paying passengers as they are more likely to get seen. Checking every ticket on the way down a busy train into Leeds means that people can often get missed out.


I notice that Steeton & Silsden is included on the list of stations with a penalty fare, but currently no sign of them installing a machine or any signage on the down platform to advise users that they will need to walk across the bridge and back just to get a promise to travel.

 

[Moonshot]

But on busy trains heading for terminals with ticket barriers, it is much better for the fare paying passengers as they are more likely to get seen. Checking every ticket on the way down a busy train into Leeds means that people can often get missed out.


I notice that Steeton & Silsden is included on the list of stations with a penalty fare, but currently no sign of them installing a machine or any signage on the down platform to advise users that they will need to walk across the bridge and back just to get a promise to travel.

That is so correct, and the way I operate is that it means less queues at Leeds for tickets to get through barriers.

 

[sheff1]

Northern have issued a press release on the introduction of the penalty fare scheme.

And in it they state "from 6 December, our authorised collectors will be on hand at stations along the routes to either issue £20 fines .... "

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I wonder if these will be the same 'collectors' who are being used in the Lancashire region, reported elsewhere on this forum, who have no facility to sell tickets at all, but just issue UFNs, even to people trying to proffer cash.

 

[johntea]

I used to work in Saltaire for 10 years so caught the train from Leeds daily over that time...

The guards used to frequently get down the train on a morning but then all of a sudden this seemed to become much less frequent (particularly after the barriers were put in at Leeds...), on the return journey in the evening it was almost always ‘anyone need a ticket’ rather than an inspection.

Compare that to the Harrogate line where this morning the guard was straight down after departing Leeds, then seconds after departing Burley Park and again after Headingley - it was quite refreshing to see although I appreciate difficult with the short distance between the stations!

 

[Bantamzen]

On inspection, no signs seemed to have appeared yet at either my home station of Baildon, or around the ticket office & platforms 3/4/5 at Shipley. Slightly worrying given that the scheme starts in two weeks. I wonder how extensive the leafleting will be when it starts, and if it will actually give customers some details on the Promise To Pay tickets, where they will be valid for (i.e. can they be used from say Baildon to Bradford/Leeds, or will passengers only be able to get them for Guiseley or Shipley and buy a full ticket there?) etc, etc. As much as I welcome the scheme, if they plan to enforce it with the staff previously mentioned on the thread and don't give people enough info then it's going to cause problems. For my part I've alerted our local "Friends of Baildon Station" group and asked them to spread the work, but by now Northern really ought to be offering more information on their website, through local media etc (meaning a bit more detail than that vague press release).

 

[Baxenden Bank]

On inspection, no signs seemed to have appeared yet at either my home station of Baildon, or around the ticket office & platforms 3/4/5 at Shipley. Slightly worrying given that the scheme starts in two weeks. I wonder how extensive the leafleting will be when it starts, and if it will actually give customers some details on the Promise To Pay tickets, where they will be valid for (i.e. can they be used from say Baildon to Bradford/Leeds, or will passengers only be able to get them for Guiseley or Shipley and buy a full ticket there?) etc, etc. As much as I welcome the scheme, if they plan to enforce it with the staff previously mentioned on the thread and don't give people enough info then it's going to cause problems. For my part I've alerted our local "Friends of Baildon Station" group and asked them to spread the work, but by now Northern really ought to be offering more information on their website, through local media etc (meaning a bit more detail than that vague press release).

At least the press release names the stations covered by the proposed Penalty Fare Scheme. Which is more than their website does (or did when I looked). A map is usually provided too. Plus clear expectations that you must physically pass a Penalty Fare Scheme notice in order for it to be enforced i.e. all entrances from the non-railway plus any interchanges where the passenger may have commenced from a non Penalty Fares area and thus be unaware of the requirements / scheme. Gargrave passengers getting 'fined' (as Northern themselves refer to it) at Keighley may have a good point to complain against! The FAQ is incomplete and twaddle, compared to what other operators of Penalty Fares manage. Have Northern not heard of 'cut and paste?

 

[AY1975]

I pointed this out a while ago, but Northern's website department think this started some time back:



https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/penalty-fares

Good job on your Capslock and all that, but what about explaining which stations 'the Airdeale and Wharfedale lines' actually include. Presumably the final part of that sentence signifies that Skipton and Cononley are excluded.

There doesn't seem to be any obvious link to that page from the Northern homepage. I seem to recall that the then Northern Spirit/Arriva Trains Northern trialled a Penalty Fares scheme on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines in the early 2000s, but the scheme was soon shelved.

 

[theblackwatch]

It looks like a local MP is extremely unhappy about this!
https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co...-of-franchise-over-new-fines-policy-1-8871387

Mr Davies, whose Shipley constituency straddles both lines, told Northern’s stakeholder manager, Pete Myers: “If I get any examples of my constituents wanting to pay for their ticket receiving a penalty fare, I will do everything in my power to ensure you lose this franchise at the earliest opportunity.”

Mr Davies had warned earlier that the new policy could see a move “out of the frying pan and into the fire”.