Northern to introduce a Penalty fare scheme

[pemma]

Fairly low I'd think, particularly as cash payers tend towards being older people who in TfGM/Merseytravel land will be using passes mostly.

What about teenagers? There could be a large number of them without a suitable debit card.

 

[Haywain]

Someone said the TVMs can hold 1500 blank tickets,

More like 4000, if they are what I believe them to be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What about teenagers? There could be a large number of them without a suitable debit card.

True, though most of them are not *resistant* to the idea of a card, and so there are many pre-pay cards available aimed at children. Indeed at that age I rather wanted to be grown up and have a card like my parents (though at the time it was only a cash card and not available until age 13).

Any attempt to phase out cash would most likely only meet genuine resistance from the older generation.

 

[sheff1]

Fairly low I'd think, particularly as cash payers tend towards being older people who in TfGM/Merseytravel land will be using passes mostly.

but not in West Yorkshire or South Yorkshire.

 

[Starmill]

Fairly low I'd think, particularly as cash payers tend towards being older people who in TfGM/Merseytravel land will be using passes mostly.

Erm I always pay cash and I'm a great many years away from being entitled to free travel.

Judging by the number of cash onboard ticket sales it would appear that rather a lot of these 'notices' will be needed.

A very large number of schoolchildren also use the service. I know they could get Child Seasons but they will need some convincing (like a Scholars Season scheme) given most of them seem to travel for free at present.

 

[johntea]

Funnily enough I was reading an information poster at Castleford yesterday, and Northern reckon the closest staffed station is actually...Garforth!

Obviously someone in the poster department has just fired Google Maps up there rather than working it out a bit more logically!

 

[Starmill]

More like 4000, if they are what I believe them to be.

This is very surprising as the ticket machine at Mauldeth Road appears to spend a day out of service due to running out of tickets (It actually says that on the screen when it runs out, rather than a more generic error message, or just a black screen) one every 3-4 days. Having spoken to the ticket office staff about it they say they have no access to it to do anything to it if it runs out or develops a fault, all they can do is report it.

 

[Bevan Price]

Fairly low I'd think, particularly as cash payers tend towards being older people who in TfGM/Merseytravel land will be using passes mostly.

I have a Merseytravel pass, but if the ticket office is closed, the TVMs are useless if I wish to travel "out of area" - they only sell tickets "from this station", not from "any station" (e.g. the Merseytravel boundary station. ) Nor can they sell rover / ranger tickets, etc. I can foresee problems if Northern continue to use some poorly trained contractor persons on revenue duties, rather than competent fully trained rail staff.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have a Merseytravel pass, but if the ticket office is closed, the TVMs are useless if I wish to travel "out of area" - they only sell tickets "from this station", not from "any station" (e.g. the Merseytravel boundary station. )

That is not at all difficult to resolve; many TOCs' TVMs do remote issue.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

It would appear to be a Permit to Travel. The fact that it is issued for free is neither here nor there, given that most Permits to Travel are issued for £0.05.

This is a rather good idea to me.

altough in theory the paid for PTTs are meant to cover the cost of the ticket , how many are issued at 5 or 10 p ?
OK the savvy who know their fares will feed it with the change portion of their fare meaning they can pay on board / at destination in whole pounds + the PTT

 

[pemma]

altough in theory the paid for PTTs are meant to cover the cost of the ticket , how many are issued at 5 or 10 p ?
OK the savvy who know their fares will feed it with the change portion of their fare meaning they can pay on board / at destination in whole pounds + the PTT

At the time permit to travel machines were widespread, you would only know the fare if you had made the same journey recently or if you had phoned an 0845 number to find out the fare. Given fare inconsistencies it would have been sensible to insert less than what you expected the fare to be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Their main purpose is to prove you came from a specific station which was unstaffed so you genuinely couldn't have bought a ticket. The charge was in many ways more to prevent chavs holding the button down to dump them all on the floor.

 

[142blue]

This can't come in soon enough up here

 

[swt_passenger]

At the time permit to travel machines were widespread, you would only know the fare if you had made the same journey recently or if you had phoned an 0845 number to find out the fare. Given fare inconsistencies it would have been sensible to insert less than what you expected the fare to be.

Back when SWT had a few PTT machines at the minor stations on the Fareham - Southampton line they had a regularly updated poster next to the machine showing the exact fares to all the local stations on the line, which helped at least for direct local journeys.

 

[Starmill]

This can't come in soon enough up here

I notice you do not say where.

 

[142blue]

I notice you do not say where.

Where Northern operate

 

[pemma]

Where Northern operate

Northern operate a diverse range of services. What's suitable for the Wharfedale line, isn't necessarily suitable for the Cumbrian Coast.

 

[142blue]

Greater Manchester

 

[yorkie]

Greater Manchester

But there are inadequate ticket issuing facilities in Greater Manchester. Shouldn't they address that first?

Are you aware of what is considered good practice in this area for a Penalty Fare scheme?

 

[142blue]

Sadly Yorkie yes I am aware of the need to improve ticket selling facilities first. That's why I was interested to see what the tfgm station proposals were but it sounds like that isn't happening now

 

[yorkie]

Problem is, it wasn't clear what "come in soon enough"; if it's adequate ticket issuing facilities, I agree with you but I think people were concerned that you may have meant Penalty Fares specifically.

The problem with the latter, is that the former is required first (and a load of other aspects of good practice which some TOCs do not adhere to!)

 

[142blue]

Though that requires ticket offices for a large swathe of the day and TVM facilities that work and are of sufficient number in relation to passenger numbers. Interesting to work out that formula...

 

[yorkie]

Though that requires ticket offices for a large swathe of the day and TVM facilities that work and are of sufficient number in relation to passenger numbers. Interesting to work out that formula...

Quite! It is difficult for me to envisage Northern complying with best practice in this area (ie, providing adequate facilities in Penalty Fare areas). I'll believe it when I see it....

 

[IanXC]

Problem is, it wasn't clear what "come in soon enough"; if it's adequate ticket issuing facilities, I agree with you but I think people were concerned that you may have meant Penalty Fares specifically.

The problem with the latter, is that the former is required first (and a load of other aspects of good practice which some TOCs do not adhere to!)

And as you know full well approval for a Penalty Fares area will not come about until said improvements to retail facilities have been completed.

 

[Mathew S]

This is an area I know next to nothing about, so please correct me, but are penalty fares not in effect just an alternative to prosecution? I mean if a TOC doesn't have a penalty fare scheme, could they not just prosecute everyone and anyone found travelling without a valid ticket?

(I'm fully aware that no TOC would ever actually do this, but at the end of the day travelling without a valid ticket is an offence, so it would surely be possible?)

Quite agree that ticketing facilities on Northern need improving - my local stations, Pemberton and Bryn, have none at all, for example - but I also think that the penalty for travelling without a ticket needs to be so severe as to disuade more people from 'trying it on'.

 

[yorkie]

And as you know full well approval for a Penalty Fares area will not come about until said improvements to retail facilities have been completed.

I wish! Sadly DfT has approved various schemes which do not fully comply with best practices

 

[IanXC]

I wish! Sadly DfT has approved various schemes which do not fully comply with best practices

Ah so weasel words eh! "Best" practice is by definition above and beyond the standard required.

 

[yorkie]

This is an area I know next to nothing about, so please correct me, but are penalty fares not in effect just an alternative to prosecution?

Selling any fare could be seen as an "alternative to prosecution"; if a customer has done something to warrant prosecution, the TOC is not obliged to prosecute and can simply sell a fare.

Normally a Penalty Fare is an alternative to a normal fare, when a customer makes a mistake under certain circumstances.

I suggest you read Chiltern's PF leaflet, particularly the part that clarifies:-

Penalty Fare is a charge that Chiltern Railways is allowed
to make under the Regulations and Rules. It is not a fine, and
anyone who is charged one is not being accused of avoiding,
or attempting to avoid, paying their fare.

‘Fare dodging’ is a completely different matter: it is a criminal
offence and we treat it as such by prosecuting offenders.

I mean if a TOC doesn't have a penalty fare scheme, could they not just prosecute everyone and anyone found travelling without a valid ticket?

They can do that whether or not they have a PF scheme.

(I'm fully aware that no TOC would ever actually do this, but at the end of the day travelling without a valid ticket is an offence, so it would surely be possible?)

"Travelling without a ticket" is a bit too simplistic but if a passenger is committing an offence under the Byelaws or Regulation of Railways Act they can be prosecuted.

 

[Mathew S]

Selling any fare could be seen as an "alternative to prosecution"; if a customer has done something to warrant prosecution, the TOC is not obliged to prosecute and can simply sell a fare.

Normally a Penalty Fare is an alternative to a normal fare, when a customer makes a mistake under certain circumstances.

I suggest you read Chiltern's PF leaflet, particularly the part that clarifies:-


They can do that whether or not they have a PF scheme.


"Travelling without a ticket" is a bit too simplistic but if a passenger is committing an offence under the Byelaws or Regulation of Railways Act they can be prosecuted.

Thanks @yorkie - appreciate the explanation.

 

[yorkie]

Ah so weasel words eh! "Best" practice is by definition above and beyond the standard required.

Perhaps I should have said "acceptable practice" then.

The SRA policy (note: the role of the SRA is now with the DfT) includes:

When considering a penalty fares scheme, we will first consider whether penalty fares are
appropriate, given the type of train service provided and the other ways in which that operator
could protect its revenue. A penalty fares scheme is most suited to urban or suburban train
services where most stations have ticket facilities, and where busy trains and short intervals
between stations make it impossible to check every passenger’s ticket between every stop. We
may question the need for a penalty fares scheme to cover long-distance services, where a
conductor is able to check every passenger, or rural services operated as ‘paytrains’, where
most stations are unstaffed and it is normal practice to buy tickets on board the train.

I believe Northern are likely to attempt to charge Penalty Fares in circumstances which should be "questioned", however the DfT cannot be trusted to effectively "question" these practices, and cannot be trusted to "consider" whether to allow such a scheme. It is the DfT who are actively encouraging inappropriate schemes (EMT long-distance services north of Bedford is an other example of a clearly inappropriate scheme, but the sort that the DfT enjoys inflicting on passengers).

A few other snippets worth bearing in mind include:

In deciding which trains should be penalty fares trains, an operator should take account of the geography of the train service, the ticket facilities available at the stations which will be served and
whether the area covered can be easily explained to passengers.

Will they be excluding Manchester Airport, to comply with this...?

...serves a port or airport and is used by a large number of foreign visitors and people who do
not often travel by train, making it undesirable to charge penalty fares to passengers from
this station

And will anyone be checking this?

we expect operators to provide enough ticket windows, ticket machines
and staff at staffed stations to meet the queuing standards set out in the Ticketing and
Settlement Agreement and their Passenger’s Charter under normal circumstances. This
standard is normally five minutes at peak times and three minutes at other times.

And they will almost certainly not be taking up this recommendation:

We do not recommend that large numbers of unstaffed stations are included in a penalty fares scheme.

Weasel words indeed; these should not merely be "recommendations" and the DfT or ORR should absolutely hold TOCs to account and ensure they are acting in a way that is totally appropriate.

I have seen the way Northern mistreat customers and I don't trust them to rectify their ways.

Now if someone senior at Northern can make absolute promises, great. They are welcome to post on this forum, or post assurances on their website. But until then, I will be very sceptical....