Northern to introduce a Penalty fare scheme

[Llanigraham]

1) Then they proffer cash at their destination or their grip and buy a ticket then.

2) I don't see why people holding a DSB wouldn't still be entitled to the full range without prejudice on board upon presentation of their Railcard. Seems a simple exception to make and administer!

Quite, but that isn't what Bletchleyite implied.

 

[Starmill]

As far as concerns about insufficient numbers TVMs go, there are some stations getting rather a lot.

For example, Marple and Earlestown have both very similar numbers of passengers per year, around half a million. Earlestown has a full time ticket office open 7 days a week. Marple has a part time ticket office that is closed on Sundays. Earlestown has had 3 new machines installed, Marple has only had one installed. Marple formerly had a machine that accepted cash too, but the new one doesn't.

Perhaps this is informed by the fact that Earlestown will become part of the Penalty Fares area, but Marple won't? Pure guesswork here. Quite why Earlestown has two machines near the ticket office and one on platform 2 is rather beyond me though. There's an entrance on platform 5, and the walk from that entrance over to the ticket office and then back to platform 4 or 5 again could easily take nearly 10 minutes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With Marple being an urban commuter line, it seems to me that it *definitely should* be part of the PF zone.

 

[pemma]

As far as concerns about insufficient numbers TVMs go, there are some stations getting rather a lot.

For example, Marple and Earlestown have both very similar numbers of passengers per year, around half a million. Earlestown has a full time ticket office open 7 days a week. Marple has a part time ticket office that is closed on Sundays. Earlestown has had 3 new machines installed, Marple has only had one installed. Marple formerly had a machine that accepted cash too, but the new one doesn't.

Perhaps this is informed by the fact that Earlestown will become part of the Penalty Fares area, but Marple won't? Pure guesswork here. Quite why Earlestown has two machines near the ticket office and one on platform 2 is rather beyond me though. There's an entrance on platform 5, and the walk from that entrance over to the ticket office and then back to platform 4 or 5 again could easily take nearly 10 minutes.

I thought the idea was Greater Manchester and a 'Greater Leeds' area would see penalty fare zones introduced, which is why Ardwick is getting a TVM so that passengers can't arrive at peak times and say "I boarded at Ardwick."

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought the idea was Greater Manchester and a 'Greater Leeds' area would see penalty fare zones introduced, which is why Ardwick is getting a TVM so that passengers can't arrive at peak times and say "I boarded at Ardwick."

Yes, that's the only reason to put one at Ardwick (bar closing it - but if there are housing developments in the area any time soon closing it would be a matter of regret - mind you, the footbridge is looking *very* dodgy indeed, and with some nice 25kV under it....).

Whether it happens to work or not will be of less concern, as nobody will be there to notice it being broken/vandalised.

 

[Starmill]

I thought the idea was Greater Manchester and a 'Greater Leeds' area would see penalty fare zones introduced, which is why Ardwick is getting a TVM so that passengers can't arrive at peak times and say "I boarded at Ardwick."

That was my thought too. But in that case, surely the busiest stations such as Marple, Greenfield, Urmston, Littleborough, Gorton, Heaton Chapel, and many more would be getting extended bookings office hours?

There's little point in penalty fare schemes that can't be enforced (for example) after lunchtime, or at all on Sundays.

 

[najaB]

I suspect they will not do this; they will expect passengers to arrive earlier for trains (but probably won't specify how early you should arrive) and if there is a queue they will probably say it's tough.

If it's a true statutory Penalty Fare scheme then 'tough' isn't an acceptable answer. A few complaints and the scheme would have to be suspended.

 

[johntea]

What happens if I want to buy a WY Day ranger, for example, and I start from an unstaffed station with only TVMs (which don't sell it)?

You buy it in a staffed station in advance according to the last time I asked Metro!!! Bonkers...

 

[VoyagerMeridie]

thats in my local statiom

 

[johntea]

I have seen people being pulled out of the excess fares queue at Leeds, yet have never seen anyone caught for tailgating at the barriers! In addition, you often see tickets left on top of the barriers that would probably let you straight through if you so desired! (Obviously ones that terminate at Leeds would get captured but some passengers seem to decide they no longer need their ticket for another connection and can't be bothered taking the ticket with them!). I presume not many serial fare dodgers spend their time queuing at the excess fares to begin with!

The argument for not having TVMs accept cash at unstaffed stations is the risk of the cash being nicked, but Metrolink seem to cope overall! Maybe hire a few staff to collect the dosh more often, or invest in a bit of decent CCTV!

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

The article could be read by some who are not in the know that once this scheme comes in all passengers on Northern must have a ticket before boarding. I feel their spokesperson should have been more clear.

Yes, but this was the journalist's doing. The full letter to Philip Davies was very thorough. The journalist has quoted it extremely selectively and I've noticed it has already heightened anxiety amongst some of our customers who now think we're going to fine them £20 if they get on a train tomorrow at any station without a ticket - the scheme hasn't even started yet!

The case that sparked this case off was absolutely ridiculous too. A student walked past both a TVM and the ticket office at Menston to get on the train, went to pay in Leeds, and was confronted by an LPO who issued her with the notice. She and her father refused to accept she had done anything wrong - which is entirely typical of the sort of complaints we get about this sort of thing - and when he didn't get the answer he wanted, he went to the MP

Northern have just tweeted me to say they are installing TVMs at all of their stations and asked what payment method I am looking to use. I responded to say that use both cash and card depending so they should ensure their TVMs accept both. I find it hard to believe Northern would install TVMs at all their locations.

They also said about their app. I made it clear in my reply that use of an app is purely optional.

We are installing TVMs at nearly every station we manage - I count 30 stations which won't have them, including the whole of the Barton Line (which accounts for 12) which is transferring away soon anyway. I believe they will be mostly card-only because of security concerns

The point about the app and the website is that you have other options to buy tickets if you think it's going to be busy queuing at a TVM or ticket office - it's about removing the main excuse people have when they are justifying it. Too many times we have people who rock up at a station last minute, see the train come in, think "it's OK, I can jump on and pay the conductor on the train", walk past a TVM and get on. They think that's acceptable because the train is there and if they stopped to buy a ticket they would miss the train. There needs to be a culture change in the attitude of customers towards buying fares. As far as I'm concerned, that is only a return to how it was before hundreds of stations were destaffed in the 60s and 70s, rather than something new

 

[MidnightFlyer]

That was my thought too. But in that case, surely the busiest stations such as Marple, Greenfield, Urmston, Littleborough, Gorton, Heaton Chapel, and many more would be getting extended bookings office hours?

There's little point in penalty fare schemes that can't be enforced (for example) after lunchtime, or at all on Sundays.

Aren't a good few stations due to have their booking office hours extended, in addition to the 45 newly-staffed ones? Like you I have heard nothing at all on this aside from Guide Bridge, and even that was a good while ago. I keep waiting on a new version of Schedule 17 to offer some guidance, though hopefully things become more apparent when the first newly-staffed stations appear (which was due next month) or this penalty fare scheme takes off.

 

[Starmill]

...the scheme hasn't even started yet!

Your website seems to think that it has:

This page gives you advice about Penalty Fares, and how and where to buy your ticket for travelling on Northern services.

Examples of when a penalty fare may be charged:

If you:

• travel without a valid ticket

• are unable to produce an appropriate Railcard for a discount ticket

• are aged 16 or over, travelling on a child rate ticket

• travel beyond the destination on your ticket

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/penalty-fares

 

[Starmill]

In other news, what on earth is a 'Promise to Pay Notice'?

If a passenger gets on a train without a ticket or Promise to Pay notice at a station where ticket buying facilities are available, they may be liable to pay a penalty fare. The penalty is the greater of £20 or twice the full single from the station where they got on the train to the next station at which the train stops. If the passenger wants to travel beyond the next station they must also pay the relevant fare from that station to their final destination.
...
If I do not buy a ticket before travelling, is it an automatic Penalty Fare?

You are responsible for ensuring that you purchase a ticket or obtain a Promise to Pay

notice that is valid for your entire journey before travelling, otherwise you may have to pay a Penalty Fare.

Northern is responsible for ensuring that the facility to purchase a ticket or Promise to Pay
...
What if I want to buy a season ticket and the ticket office is closed, or the machine doesn’t sell the ticket I want?

Ticket Vending Machines sell most weekly season tickets for journeys on Northern services. Monthly season ticket holders can renew their ticket provided their details are recorded in our database. If the required destination station is not listed on the ticket machine, then they should purchase a single ticket to their interchange station or use the promise to pay notice.

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/penalty-fares

They are referred to a number of times, with no explanation as to what they are. Apparently we can 'use the promise to pay notice' somewhere?

A 'promise to pay notice' is something that might be more commonly known as a banknote I would think.

 

[sheff1]

Your website seems to think that it has:
https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/penalty-fares

And one of the options when ringing the Customer Experience Centre is "To pay a penalty fare, press .."

Ignoring that option, I spoke to very helpful person who advised that the Promise to Pay is a new function on card-only TVMs. "You press that button and get a printed slip which you show the conductor when you buy the ticket on the train". They also confirmed that if a you board at a station without a booking office or TVM you can buy on board as before.

 

[kevconnor]

The very minute any kind of machine is installed at my local station (Moston) you will be able to count how long it takes before it is vandalised with an egg timer.

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

Your website seems to think that it has:



https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/penalty-fares

Yeah, I found this page the other day by Googling but I'm not sure it's accessible from anywhere else on the website yet - I think it's meant to be hidden. Either way, it hasn't started - we have to put up the standard DfT yellow signs on the stations to be able to enforce it. Last I heard it's going to be a gradual roll-out

 

[thejuggler]

And one of the options when ringing the Customer Experience Centre is "To pay a penalty fare, press .."

Ignoring that option, I spoke to very helpful person who advised that the Promise to Pay is a new function on card-only TVMs. "You press that button and get a printed slip which you show the conductor when you buy the ticket on the train". They also confirmed that if a you board at a station without a booking office or TVM you can buy on board as before.

I had one of those months ago as proof I had boarded the station I wanted a ticket from when I reached Leeds. It was from an employee who wasn’t selling tickets. I never showed it anyone when I bought a ticket.

 

[Starmill]

I had one of those months ago as proof I had boarded the station I wanted a ticket from when I reached Leeds. It was from an employee who wasn’t selling tickets. I never showed it anyone when I bought a ticket.

They did used to give out photocopied slips at stations with no ticket buying facilities on certain days. I've been handed one myself several times. It didn't 'promise' to do anything though it just said the name of the station on it.

The text on the website implies that payment must be made for a 'Promise to Pay Notice'. Of course, that might not be correct.

They wouldn't be able to enforce the requirement to present one of those slips in order for you to purchase a ticket though.

 

[hawk1911]

1/ What happens if the person wants to pay in cash where there is only a card ticket machine?

Straight from the horse's mouth:
http://twitter.com/northernassist/status/791258566657187840

Did you know? If you board at a station with a card only ticket machine you can purchase on board using cash or you can use our mobile app.

 

[yorkie]

...I've noticed it has already heightened anxiety amongst some of our customers ...

This is an entirely foreseeable outcome. It will make people feel rather more negative about travelling with the company.

Who is going to be issuing these Penalty Fares? If it's people of the sort of calibre as the Carlisle Security staff, then I wouldn't trust them to open a can of sardines that was already open, let alone be knowledgeable about rail fares.

I bet we get people asking for help here who are incorrectly charged.

It's all so predictable. It was a shambles before, and it'll be a shambles again.

 

[gray1404]

This promise to pay is a load of nonsense. Its not enforceable. Same with these stupid photocopied slips they give out.

A permit to travel is different as that requires part payment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They think that's acceptable because the train is there and if they stopped to buy a ticket they would miss the train. There needs to be a culture change in the attitude of customers towards buying fares. As far as I'm concerned, that is only a return to how it was before hundreds of stations were destaffed in the 60s and 70s, rather than something new

And the only way you're going to get that culture change is if it stops being the case that when they do do that they are sold a ticket!

With the exceptions noted upthread (DSB holders etc) on-board ticket sales have to completely stop. Even if that results in lost revenue, that is the ONLY way the message will get across - if you get on and travel anyway, you WILL get a PF. Not might, will.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In other news, what on earth is a 'Promise to Pay Notice'?

It would appear to be a Permit to Travel. The fact that it is issued for free is neither here nor there, given that most Permits to Travel are issued for £0.05.

This is a rather good idea to me.

 

[gray1404]

No point whatsoever issuing these "promise to pay" notices. Pointless. The customer should just be able to get on the train any pay anyway if Northern cannot be bothered to install TVMs that a capable of taking cash. So we will get a situation whereby a customer is issued with a PF because they didn't have a "promise to pay" ticket even though they wanted to pay cash and the TVM didn't accept cash.

On the flip side there will be customer's obtaining a "promise to pay" slip (even if their payment method is accepted or destination/ticket offered) in the home they will not encounter a ticket check and not have to pay. The whole thing is doomed to fail. Will there be a reasonable amount of signage and education to inform customers of their need to obtain one of these pointless "promise to pay" slips - I highly doubt it.

The wording if it is wrong too. They should be using terms like "permit to travel" as at least that will have some real meaning. In short, Northern need to start investing in card and cash TVMs and stop doing everything on the cheap. It is not just about them, they have to also provide something of a service to customers.

I had the opposite situation today. Booking office closed as helping a disabled passenger and TVM is cash only. I had a cash on me but I decided I wanted to pay with my card. Ticket check by guard on the train but they are not revenue trained. RPI got on and told me they only have the facility to issue penalty fares so could not sell tickets so I would have to pay when I get off the train. Yet another example of a failure to invest in TVMs that accept the modern world and a choice of payment methods.

 

[Tetchytyke]

A 'promise to pay notice' is something that might be more commonly known as a banknote I would think.

Except it's a banknote that doesn't mysteriously forget where it boarded the train, getting confused and saying it came from a station four stops closer to its destination.

I've been arguing for more transparency from Northern, so I really can't complain at this.

 

[philthetube]

I think it is a good idea, no arguments about where you got on, I wonder if priv holders will be required to collect one as well.

If this works I can see the conditions of travel being altered to accommodate this.

 

[Starmill]

It would appear to be a Permit to Travel.

Erm, no, because then it would be called a Permit to Travel. What a PTT is is defined in the NRCoT and it's clear what they're for.

They cannot change the name of it because it suits them.

They could introduce something similar, and give it their own name, if that's what you mean. But they couldn't insist that people purchase those and threaten PFs unless they do without ammendments to the NRCoT and probably the Penalty Fare regulations too.

 

[Starmill]

Except it's a banknote that doesn't mysteriously forget where it boarded the train, getting confused and saying it came from a station four stops closer to its destination.

I dunno, every other TOC in the country seems to have managed to mitigate against this problem without issuing their own documents that promise to pay.

If the charge for these is really £0.00 then there are two other very significant problems with this idea:

1. If they can be dispensed without any limits at all, there is nothing to stop anybody from just dispensing loads of them until the machine is empty.

2. If they are free, it encourages people who would otherwise have used the machine to pay for a ticket to take one of these instead as it allows them to board without one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

1. If they can be dispensed without any limits at all, there is nothing to stop anybody from just dispensing loads of them until the machine is empty.

I suspect the process of issuing them will have enough screen presses that people would soon get bored.

2. If they are free, it encourages people who would otherwise have used the machine to pay for a ticket to take one of these instead as it allows them to board without one.

Only if they pay cash when requested. If a card comes out...PF time.

I think it's actually a really good idea. And I am, as people will have noticed, not in any way reticent of criticising Northern when they do something bad (as they do quite a lot).