Northern to introduce evening peak restrictions

[Xenophon PCDGS]

To use rail usage of certain areas of the Northern Rail franchise as comparative demarcation points in voting intentions of the local electorates appears to have neither rhyme nor reason to me. Would it not be the case that car ownership is far higher in the more affluent areas, making them less susceptible to the subject matter of this particular thread.

 

[Philip C]

To use rail usage of certain areas of the Northern Rail franchise as comparative demarcation points in voting intentions of the local electorates appears to have neither rhyme nor reason to me. Would it not be the case that car ownership is far higher in the more affluent areas, making them less susceptible to the subject matter of this particular thread.

Yes, but the fare increases don't follow car ownership or wealth boundaries they do very closely follow political boundaries. In a way I'm almost glad they do, as sparing the wealthy smacks of arguments along the lines of not taxing the bankers for fear they'll clear off to Switzerland. From a revenue raising point of view it would suggest that the wealthy wouldn't pay the extra whilst the poor would. If this were the reason then knowing it we would truly know much!

May I also point out that Bramhall and Hale are subject to these restrictions whilst Workington and Accrington are not. On the other hand whilst Guide Bridge and Hindley are subject Knutsford and Grange-over-Sands are not.

However, as it stands somebody has decided that the PTE boundaries will determine (with a few minor modifications) whether these restrictions apply or not. I continue to struggle to understand why that decision was made.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Philip C,

The whole thing is essentially a rather crude and hastily-implemented grab for additional revenue. And the obvious place to obtain that additional revenue is by forcing some passengers in PTE areas to pay more (the peak fare) for their journeys. These passengers have benefitted from some very low fares for many years and a view has been taken that most of those passengers will be prepared to pay more for a journey which is much faster than a bus or tram. I very much doubt that politics has entered into it.

 

[Starmill]

I didn't realise Humberside was still a county!

 

[Philip C]

I didn't realise Humberside was still a county!

Neither, arguably, is Cheshire. It was just an easy way of identifying which constituencies were within scope of my definition of the Northern TOC served area. The data naturally flowed from 2010 General Election results (updated for by-elections) and the way they were organised in the source web-site.

I do not appear to have struck a chord with my views on the way the Northern revenue hike has been applied and will now leave the field.

 

[Busaholic]

Neither, arguably, is Cheshire. It was just an easy way of identifying which constituencies were within scope of my definition of the Northern TOC served area. The data naturally flowed from 2010 General Election results (updated for by-elections) and the way they were organised in the source web-site.

I do not appear to have struck a chord with my views on the way the Northern revenue hike has been applied and will now leave the field.

I hardly know the area you've been speaking about but, with that caveat, think you've argued your case well and deserve to be listened to, which I think you have been. Nice to read threads on a subject which don't degenerate into personal abuse.

 

[Starmill]

Neither, arguably, is Cheshire. It was just an easy way of identifying which constituencies were within scope of my definition of the Northern TOC served area. The data naturally flowed from 2010 General Election results (updated for by-elections) and the way they were organised in the source web-site.

I do not appear to have struck a chord with my views on the way the Northern revenue hike has been applied and will now leave the field.

Apologies, didn't mean that at all! Not really that sure what to make of the points about the politics of the situation if I'm honest. It's not that your views 'do not strike a chord' - I think there are some pertinent points to be made and you have made more effort than most at looking through those. It's just that it's tempered with a general sense of depression, powerlessness and a twinge of betrayal. I don't know how anyone else feels about it.

It reminds me a lot of how I feel about the 319-debacle actually. Hey now there's a thought - this price rise, are we going to get new trains out of it? We are constantly being that we need 'cheap' trains because the fares are too low. Are we going to get any investment in rolling stock in return for this fare hike? Hmm... thought not.

Don't take my wibble about county boundaries seriously, please!

 

[Merseysider]

Hey now there's a thought - this price rise, are we going to get new trains out of it? We are constantly being that we need 'cheap' trains because the fares are too low. Are we going to get any investment in rolling stock in return for this fare hike? Hmm... thought not.

Funnily enough, I asked Northern that very question this morning...
Looks like they've been taking lessons from David Cameron on how to avoid giving a proper answer

 

[bb21]

Funnily enough, I asked Northern that very question this morning...
Looks like they've been taking lessons from David Cameron on how to avoid giving a proper answer

You are going to have to try very hard to get a straight answer for that one.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

You are going to have to try very hard to get a straight answer for that one.

Since the question is not being answered, maybe Jake should repeatedly tweet back with: "Did you threaten to over-rule Derek Lewis?" :roll:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The standard response from Northern Rail for the reason they have chosen to make these increases seems to be along the lines of ....

"In response to the request by the DfT to reduce the subsidy level as part of its new franchise to look at several options put forward, Northern Rail feel that the change to the off-peak tickets is the only option that is being taken forward"

 

[snail]

Surely if it is to raise revenue then applying it across the board, throughout the North, would either enable the pain to be spread wider and thinner, or for more money to be raised overall.

I think you suffer from too many conspiracy theories. Why do you think the rest of 'The North' doesn't have restrictions? If I want to travel to Preston from London I can't use an off-peak ticket between 1501 and 1845 yet someone going north of Preston can. Similarly if I want to make a 15 minute journey to Lancaster I can't buy an off-peak ticket because they don't exist.

I've been following this thread and just wonder how much this will really affect people or whether it's just brought out the disgruntled train geeks that think all train travel should be free. If peak restrictions out of Manchester mean I can get a seat on my train from Salford Central then I won't be complaining. Unfortunately I think most of my fellow travellers have TfGM cards or NR season tickets like me. So the trains will generally still be packed.

 

[IanXC]

Philip C,

The whole thing is essentially a rather crude and hastily-implemented grab for additional revenue. And the obvious place to obtain that additional revenue is by forcing some passengers in PTE areas to pay more (the peak fare) for their journeys. These passengers have benefitted from some very low fares for many years and a view has been taken that most of those passengers will be prepared to pay more for a journey which is much faster than a bus or tram. I very much doubt that politics has entered into it.

Indeed. Its worth comparing some fares and journeys, often, taking comparable journeys shows off peak fares outside the PTE areas are greater than Anytime fares inside. The governments position is that the "low fares" in the North need to be brought into line with the rest of the network, outside the PTE areas they broadly are in line.. This is page one, step one.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Government's position is that the "low fares" in the North need to be brought into line with the rest of the network.

A pity therefore that the Government's position on this matter does not also extend to the quality of the rolling stock in the North, into line with the rest of the network...

 

[yorksrob]

I think you suffer from too many conspiracy theories. Why do you think the rest of 'The North' doesn't have restrictions? If I want to travel to Preston from London I can't use an off-peak ticket between 1501 and 1845 yet someone going north of Preston can. Similarly if I want to make a 15 minute journey to Lancaster I can't buy an off-peak ticket because they don't exist.

I've been following this thread and just wonder how much this will really affect people or whether it's just brought out the disgruntled train geeks that think all train travel should be free. If peak restrictions out of Manchester mean I can get a seat on my train from Salford Central then I won't be complaining. Unfortunately I think most of my fellow travellers have TfGM cards or NR season tickets like me. So the trains will generally still be packed.

It will certainly affect me, as I sometimes meet up with friends by train after work. Whether it will make it much easier for you to get a seat, I doubt it as the vast majority of cpassengers on these services are commuters (I'm a commuter most days my self).

I feel your pain as regards the woefull lack of off peak discounts on many routes, but is the removal of an enlightened policy in PTE areas likely to result in an improved situation elsewhere ? I seriously doubt it.

I don't generally begrudge the railway the two and a half grand a year I spend on it, but I do object to punitive price hikes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed. Its worth comparing some fares and journeys, often, taking comparable journeys shows off peak fares outside the PTE areas are greater than Anytime fares inside. The governments position is that the "low fares" in the North need to be brought into line with the rest of the network, outside the PTE areas they broadly are in line.. This is page one, step one.

It's a flawed policy because the PTE's put in local funding in their areas, so they should have a say over pricing. If the Government is going to remove this freedom, perhaps the DfT should be made to cough up the extra funding for local services


Given the Governments new found spirit of equality, I wonder if they'll be extending the Network Card to the rest of the country so that we can all enjoy discounted off peak fares !

I can hear that squadron of flying pigs oinking its way towards us right now
.

 

[IanD]

A pity therefore that the Government's position on this matter does not also extend to the quality of the rolling stock in the North, into line with the rest of the network...

Nor to the frequency of services.

 

[spargazer]

I realise that the answer to the following is way back
on the thread but

1, does this policy affect travelers on TPE, VT, XC, and AWT?
2, is this applicable to us northerners only,
3, will we ever find out how much extra revenue has been squeezed out?
by a; fare dodgers, b; by the scheme itself
4, does realise have a z rather than an s in it

 

[Merseysider]

I realise that the answer to the following is way back
on the thread but

1, does this policy affect travelers on TPE, VT, XC, and AWT?
2, is this applicable to us northerners only,
3, will we ever find out how much extra revenue has been squeezed out?
by a; fare dodgers, b; by the scheme itself
4, does realise have a z rather than an s in it

1. Yes, on the affected lines. However their TOC-Only tickets will not be affected.
2. For the time being, yes. Merseyside already has an afternoon peak (of sorts) so it was only a matter of time before the other main Northern hubs got one too.
3. Probably not without a hell of a lot of digging. However, we will be able to find out how many people cease to use the railway and switch to bus or car as a result of this price hike.
4. S in Great Britain, Z in the Americas.

 

[northwichcat]

It's a flawed policy because the PTE's put in local funding in their areas, so they should have a say over pricing.

The question is where does that funding come from? The amount taken in council tax is low in West Yorkshire compared to other areas but spending (especially for transport) is higher. The two don't add up!

 

[IanXC]

The question is where does that funding come from? The amount taken in council tax is low in West Yorkshire compared to other areas but spending (especially for transport) is higher. The two don't add up!

Indeed - it's probably more accurate to say "bring the level of DfT subsidy per passenger mile into line". I suspect at the moment whilst there is local funding bringing prices down, there is a significant amount of DfT funding doing the same.

 

[yorksrob]

The question is where does that funding come from? The amount taken in council tax is low in West Yorkshire compared to other areas but spending (especially for transport) is higher. The two don't add up!

West Yorkshire has a high proportion of areas of high multiple deprivation and low income. Personal tax take will inevitably be lower per head (although I suspect that income from business rates might be higher). However, even though a lot of WY funding comes from the gmt grant, the grant is calculated to provide local services so if W Yorkshooses to put that funding into transport, it should have a say over pricing, otherwise let the DfT fund it so that we can spend the grant on something else.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed - it's probably more accurate to say "bring the level of DfT subsidy per passenger mile into line". I suspect at the moment whilst there is local funding bringing prices down, there is a significant amount of DfT funding doing the same.

I'm not aware of a mechanism for central gmt to directly subsidise fares in that way. Wouldn't they have to specify a price differential in the franchise ?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

2. Is TfGM reducing its funding for service strengthening or, what I take to be, fares support? If it isn't then why is it being singled out vis-a-vis surrounding areas for a fares increase at this time?

I don't think we know what the local subsidy arrangement is for the direct award franchise period.
In GW-land, all the locally funded deals were wrapped into the franchise agreement. It's possible that has happened at Northern.

This seems to me to be the first stage of a long and convoluted harmonisation of rail fares in the north, something that Rail North will have to get to grips with in the new long franchise from 2016.

 

[northwichcat]

West Yorkshire has a high proportion of areas of high multiple deprivation and low income.

Even when you compare a band A property in Leeds with a band A property in a town outside a PTE area, the one in Leeds tends to be the one with the lower rate of council tax.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think we know what the local subsidy arrangement is for the direct award franchise period.
In GW-land, all the locally funded deals were wrapped into the franchise agreement. It's possible that has happened at Northern.

I think it is the same with Northern. There are minimum capacity requirements on certain services within PTE areas written in to the franchise agreement which seem to relate to the ones PTEs are funding strengthening on.

 

[Starmill]

3, will we ever find out how much extra revenue has been squeezed out?
by a; fare dodgers, b; by the scheme itself

I'm particularly intrigued by this notion. How do you imagine this scheme will reduce fare evasion? I can think of lots of ways to make more people pay for their journeys, but this isn't one of them! In fact I'd guess it will probably increase fare evasion!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think you suffer from too many conspiracy theories. Why do you think the rest of 'The North' doesn't have restrictions? If I want to travel to Preston from London I can't use an off-peak ticket between 1501 and 1845 yet someone going north of Preston can. Similarly if I want to make a 15 minute journey to Lancaster I can't buy an off-peak ticket because they don't exist.

I've been following this thread and just wonder how much this will really affect people or whether it's just brought out the disgruntled train geeks that think all train travel should be free. If peak restrictions out of Manchester mean I can get a seat on my train from Salford Central then I won't be complaining. Unfortunately I think most of my fellow travellers have TfGM cards or NR season tickets like me. So the trains will generally still be packed.

Very lightly restricted tickets make up in a way for the poor frequency, low speed and low quality of the rolling stock in this part of the country. Removing that means that demands on the qaulity of the service should and will increase. Do you think we are likely to see the sort of capacity and frequency in Manchester that is often seen on London commuter routes? Rest assured Mr Snail - this has nothing to do with spreading the load. The Government does not care a button weather you get a seat or not, and I must concur with your analysis that the likelihood of that is unlikely to increase anytime soon!

 

[Hebden Bridger]

4. S in Great Britain, Z in the Americas.

Sorry to get so far off topic, but this misconception really annoys me, "realize" is the preferred British English spelling of the Oxford English Dictionary , although "realise" is equally acceptable. The use of "realize" predates "realise" by a 100 years or so.

There are of course many verbs which must be spelt with an -ise in British English e.g. advise, devise, surprise. But realize isn't one of them.

It is probable that limited spelling ability led to "realise" becoming an accepted variant of "realize" in British English.

 

[Deerfold]

Sorry to get so far off topic, but this misconception really annoys me, "realize" is the preferred British English spelling of the Oxford English Dictionary , although "realise" is equally acceptable. The use of "realize" predates "realise" by a 100 years or so.

Realize is the preferred spelling of the OED, but not of most British media such as the Times, the Guardian/Observer ( http://www.theguardian.com/guardian-observer-style-guide-i ), the Telegraph ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/about-us/style-book/1435315/Telegraph-style-book-Ii.html ), the BBC ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/academy/journalism/news-style-guide/article/art20131010112740749 ) etc. As America does exclusively use -ize you can see why people describe the spilt as JakeF did.

 

[Starmill]

Mauldeth Road has a piece of A4 paper with the 'Off-Peak is Changing' poster inside a plastic document wallet sellotaped to the top of the ticket machine. The rain has been in it and the ink has run, and the tape is all gammy. Because of course producing a poster to put in any of the actual poster frames would have been too simple, professional and effective.


Typical Northern?

 

[Deerfold]

Mauldeth Road has a piece of A4 paper with the 'Off-Peak is Changing' poster inside a plastic document wallet sellotaped to the top of the ticket machine. The rain has been in it and the ink has run, and the tape is all gammy. Because of course producing a poster to put in any of the actual poster frames would have been too simple, professional and effective.


Typical Northern?

Odd, At Steeton and Silsden they've put one very visibly in the display case next to the timetable as you approach the Southbound platform.

I don't like the substance of it, but I can't argue they're not informing passengers there.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Mauldeth Road has a piece of A4 paper with the 'Off-Peak is Changing' poster inside a plastic document wallet sellotaped to the top of the ticket machine. The rain has been in it and the ink has run, and the tape is all gammy. Because of course producing a poster to put in any of the actual poster frames would have been too simple, professional and effective.


Typical Northern?

Some proper sized posters were delivered to 'regional hubs' and distributed, by staff, to where they should be going. That's how they arrived where I work and they are now displayed. I don't however, work at Mauldeth Road, so I don't know why the big poster has not appeared there.

 

[Merseysider]

Mauldeth Road has a piece of A4 paper with the 'Off-Peak is Changing' poster inside a plastic document wallet sellotaped to the top of the ticket machine. The rain has been in it and the ink has run, and the tape is all gammy. Because of course producing a poster to put in any of the actual poster frames would have been too simple, professional and effective.


Typical Northern?

I noticed that this morning, and no doubt the staff on morning shift did too. I wouldn't bother tweeting Northern about it, they never reply to anything. Perhaps we should produce one of our own...