Northern Unit Refurbishments

[Neptune]

Any ideas which of the 331/0s are moving east or is it which ones are available?

Not sure but it will be sometime in December.

So will the 333s remain diagrammed on triangle services when Diagrams for 6 car 331s start?

Yes as only 2 are required on Doncaster. 333’s will mainly be focussed on Bradford services (which will go back to 2tph on each route) and the 331 pairs will be focussed on Leeds - Skipton/Ilkley.

 

[jonesy3001]

There's going to be a 3 way swap with the 331s and 319s using the same loco before the dec timetable change.
331/0 allerton to skipton,
331/1 skipton to allerton,
319/3 allerton to newport.

 

[skyhigh]

There's going to be a 3 way swap with the 331s and 319s using the same loco before the dec timetable change.
331/0 allerton to skipton,
331/1 skipton to allerton,
319/3 allerton to newport.

Skipton?

 

[jonesy3001]

Skipton?

Either that or neville hill, last time they did the 331 swaps they went to skipton via the bentham line with a 37.

 

[Halish Railway]

Either that or neville hill, last time they did the 331 swaps they went to skipton via the bentham line with a 37.

I think when exchanges of 331s have occurred before they’ve been to Skipton.

 

[jonesy3001]

They are stabled at skipton along with the 333's.

An empty Skipton C.S

Explore Dazza P Jones' 3498 photos on Flickr!

flic.kr

 

[reecestrains]

Either that or neville hill, last time they did the 331 swaps they went to skipton via the bentham line with a 37.

Yeah, they'll have had to be towed because the electric wires don't continue after Skipton Broughton Road C.S.

 

[507020]

There's going to be a 3 way swap with the 331s and 319s using the same loco before the dec timetable change.
331/0 allerton to skipton,
331/1 skipton to allerton,
319/3 allerton to newport.

Why has the 319 withdrawal come about so quickly instead of waiting for WMR 323s? It seems like Northern are going to have to severely ration electric carriages in the December timetable, on already busy services.

Either that or neville hill, last time they did the 331 swaps they went to skipton via the bentham line with a 37.

I’m very surprised that they don’t go via the Calder Valley. It avoids congestion in Manchester and Leeds, but I didn’t think there were any spare paths up there after running the passenger service. If they plan on moving then at night, don’t box openings become an issue?

No chance they can get to Carnforth under their own power? There’s no shortage of locos up there

 

[yorksrob]

Why has the 319 withdrawal come about so quickly instead of waiting for WMR 323s? It seems like Northern are going to have to severely ration electric carriages in the December timetable, on already busy services.

As ABBA once said "money, money money".

 

[jonesy3001]

Why has the 319 withdrawal come about so quickly instead of waiting for WMR 323s? It seems like Northern are going to have to severely ration electric carriages in the December timetable, on already busy services.

I’m very surprised that they don’t go via the Calder Valley. It avoids congestion in Manchester and Leeds, but I didn’t think there were any spare paths up there after running the passenger service. If they plan on moving then at night, don’t box openings become an issue?

No chance they can get to Carnforth under their own power? There’s no shortage of locos up there

Three car and four car swaps plus less 6 car jobs will likely see the end of the 319s before the extra 323s.

 

[Neptune]

Why has the 319 withdrawal come about so quickly instead of waiting for WMR 323s? It seems like Northern are going to have to severely ration electric carriages in the December timetable, on already busy services.

The full allocation of 3 car 331’s isn’t required east of the Pennines until the Dec ‘24 tt change so there are spare units knocking around on the west until then when hopefully the WMR 323’s will be on stream.

 

[507020]

Three car and four car swaps plus less 6 car jobs will likely see the end of the 319s before the extra 323s.

But reducing formations from 6 car to 4 car and 4 car to 3 car just means the 319s are being scrapped by a reduction in capacity.

Are all 319s going to be gone before/in December, or just before the 323s arrive, which will be quite a lot later.

The full allocation of 3 car 331’s isn’t required east of the Pennines until the Dec ‘24 tt change so there are spare units knocking around on the west until then when hopefully the WMR 323’s will be on stream.

If not all 3 car 331s go east at first, then that should help stop things becoming unbearable, but I would seriously be considering scrapping the Alderley Edge stoppers or shoving 2 car DMUs on them until more stock becomes available, since Chat Moss and Bolton corridor services are unlikely to withstand reductions in train length, even only temporarily. Hazel Grove still only has DMUs, which is unacceptable.

 

[jonesy3001]

The first 319s go very soon. I got told that the 331-0/331-1/319 moves were all being done by the same ROG loco all within a couple of days of each other.

 

[py_megapixel]

But reducing formations from 6 car to 4 car and 4 car to 3 car just means the 319s are being scrapped by a reduction in capacity.

Are all 319s going to be gone before/in December, or just before the 323s arrive, which will be quite a lot later.

If not all 3 car 331s go east at first, then that should help stop things becoming unbearable, but I would seriously be considering scrapping the Alderley Edge stoppers or shoving 2 car DMUs on them until more stock becomes available, since Chat Moss and Bolton corridor services are unlikely to withstand reductions in train length, even only temporarily. Hazel Grove still only has DMUs, which is unacceptable.

I thought the problem with Hazel Grove terminators was that they only fit in the timetable by interworking their stock with the Buxton services, which can't be electric as Hazel Grove to Buxton is unelectrified. In that case, it doesn't matter how many EMUs you have, Hazel Grove will be stuck with diesel until and unless the timetable is changed, bi-modes are introduced or the full length of the Buxton route is electrified.

I'm slightly baffled by the suggestion that Hazel Grove only having DMUs is unacceptable, but that it would be a good idea to convert the Alderley Edge route - which provides an extremely similar sort of service - to DMUs in order to save 331s. Alderley Edge only takes two units anyway - it's not like that would make much of a difference.

The actual solution to extend the lease on the 319s for a bit (either to keep them on Northern or to introduce some more 319 diagrams on LNR/WMR so they can free up their 323s quicker, if that's more convenient for whatever reason). I suppose if they had to be the 769s could be pressed into service as pure EMUs for a bit, with Sprinters substituting on the Southport route (it's not like such substitution is a rare occurrence anyway).

 

[Mamorin]

The actual solution to extend the lease on the 319s for a bit (either to keep them on Northern or to introduce some more 319 diagrams on LNR/WMR so they can free up their 323s quicker,

Won't happen with LNWR as they are getting rid of their 319s very soon as they need costly C6 overhauls to remain in service.

Not sure when the Northern 319s will need costly C6 overhauls but it must be soon as Northern are binning their 319s later this year.

Its not worth the cost of a C6 overhaul to keep the 319s in service for a few more months.

 

[507020]

I thought the problem with Hazel Grove terminators was that they only fit in the timetable by interworking their stock with the Buxton services, which can't be electric as Hazel Grove to Buxton is unelectrified. In that case, it doesn't matter how many EMUs you have, Hazel Grove will be stuck with diesel until and unless the timetable is changed, bi-modes are introduced or the full length of the Buxton route is electrified.

I'm slightly baffled by the suggestion that Hazel Grove only having DMUs is unacceptable, but that it would be a good idea to convert the Alderley Edge route - which provides an extremely similar sort of service - to DMUs in order to save 331s. Alderley Edge only takes two units anyway - it's not like that would make much of a difference.

The actual solution to extend the lease on the 319s for a bit (either to keep them on Northern or to introduce some more 319 diagrams on LNR/WMR so they can free up their 323s quicker, if that's more convenient for whatever reason). I suppose if they had to be the 769s could be pressed into service as pure EMUs for a bit, with Sprinters substituting on the Southport route (it's not like such substitution is a rare occurrence anyway).

In principle I don’t agree with Diesel under the wires and Hazel Grove should receive an electric service, but I’m very concerned about the looming capacity reductions on all routes except Manchester - Crewe, which will not see any reduction, leaving it with noticeably more capacity than the others, so if you were going to find somewhere to squeeze out a few more units, that would be it.

769s covering all electric diagrams with more 4 car Sprinters to Southport wouldn’t be a bad thing if overall there is more capacity and electric running, but substituting 2 cars would cause the same problem as on electric routes.

 

[Mamorin]

but I’m very concerned about the looming capacity reductions on all routes except Manchester - Crewe, which will not see any reduction, leaving it with noticeably more capacity than the others

What capacity reductions are happening on all routes out of Manchester apart from Manchester - Crewe?

 

[Neptune]

What capacity reductions are happening on all routes out of Manchester apart from Manchester - Crewe?

I assume it’s just a guess. I can check the actual unit diagrams for December when I’m back at work next week.

 

[507020]

What capacity reductions are happening on all routes out of Manchester apart from Manchester - Crewe?

Not all routes out of Manchester. Most electric routes due to the early withdrawal of 319s triggering a series of cascades. Northern’s own website already states Blackpool North - Manchester Airport will be reduced from 6 cars to 4 and Liverpool Lime Street - Wigan North Western, Doncaster - Leeds and all services from Bradford Forster Square will be reduced from 4 cars to 3. Also Buxton services will be reduced from 4 cars to 2.

6 cars an hour stopping between Manchester and Alderley Edge does seem excessive compared to 3 cars an hour between Manchester and Liverpool, especially with other services serving Stockport etc, but I’m most concerned about Bolton corridor services not coping. Northern have also recently admitted that these services are their busiest.

 

[childwallblues]

The 323s are not too small for the half-hourly Wigan stoppers in a million years. I think a four carriage 331 will be wasted on such a service when the Liverpool - Blackpool fasts are far busier and could justify six carriages at times.

The loss of seats and overall length of a 319 compared with a 323 is small, especially when the stoppers are generally nowhere near full anyway.

Liverpool-Blackpool North services only stop at St Helens Central and Huyton west of Wigan. With the exception of Bryn all the other stations are in Merseyside and benefit from either free passes or cheap tickets hence they are often very busy especially at weekends.

 

[sbrignall72]

All the Angel 156's are "supposed" to be having C6 overhaul but the bodywork corrosion is to such an extent that they also need major repairs.

416 is supposedly penciled in for output 14th Sept, 417 is earmarked for 7th Nov and 448 is due out 2nd Sept.

Hi diligentdave, what are the current dates for the units away 156416/417/448 and 150145 to return. MTIA

Hi diligentdave, what are the current dates for the units away 156416/417/448 and 150145 to return. MTIA

Forgot to add 156471.

 

[diligentdave]

Hi diligentdave, what are the current dates for the units away 156416/417/448 and 150145 to return. MTIA


Forgot to add 156471.

156448 was supposed to return today but I knocked it on the head yesterday when I was at Wolverton. 156416 is currently end of October and 417 is supposedly 2nd Dec. 156471 is looking better than first thoughts corrosion wise but at the moment no set date has been mentioned. 150145 should return by end of November but that's still up in the air (not literally, it's slowly being rebuilt) and 150132 (which you didn't mention) will be after.

But reducing formations from 6 car to 4 car and 4 car to 3 car just means the 319s are being scrapped by a reduction in capacity.

Are all 319s going to be gone before/in December, or just before the 323s arrive, which will be quite a lot later.

All 319's are off-lease at the end of November. The plans have been drawn for disposals.

 

[Harvey B]

The 333’s have all had the digital mods but await the fitting of TrainFX.

Does anyone know when the first 333 is due to get fitted with Train FX?

 

[skyhigh]

Does anyone know when the first 333 is due to get fitted with Train FX?

No date set yet. Don't get too excited though, it will be exactly the same as any other TFx.

 

[175001]

A video on Facebook I've seen, has 150210 with the new announcers... Ugh

 

[sbrignall72]

156448 was supposed to return today but I knocked it on the head yesterday when I was at Wolverton. 156416 is currently end of October and 417 is supposedly 2nd Dec. 156471 is looking better than first thoughts corrosion wise but at the moment no set date has been mentioned. 150145 should return by end of November but that's still up in the air (not literally, it's slowly being rebuilt) and 150132 (which you didn't mention) will be after.


All 319's are off-lease at the end of November. The plans have been drawn for disposals.

I wasn't aware 150132 was down there too.

 

[Greybeard33]

Northern’s own website already states Blackpool North - Manchester Airport will be reduced from 6 cars to 4 and Liverpool Lime Street - Wigan North Western, Doncaster - Leeds and all services from Bradford Forster Square will be reduced from 4 cars to 3. Also Buxton services will be reduced from 4 cars to 2.

A slight exaggeration. What Northern's website actually states for the North West is:

• Manchester Piccadilly - Buxton: During the off-peak most trains will run as 2 carriages instead of 4.
• Blackpool North – Manchester Airport: On quieter services, some trains will run as 4 carriages instead of 6.
• Liverpool - Wigan: Some trains will run as 3 carriages instead of 4.
• Liverpool – Newton-le-Willows - Manchester Airport: Some trains will see an increase in capacity where demand is higher, running as 4 carriages instead of 3.

June 2024 Timetable Changes

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

Nevertheless, currently Northern has twelve 319s diagrammed in traffic M-F, of which four diagrams are peak only. There are no cuts to the timetable, so if all the 319s are withdrawn those 12 must be replaced by other stock.

Currently one 323 and one 331/0 are diagrammed as stabled all day, so if they are brought into traffic, e.g. on Liverpool - Wigan diagrams, that leaves ten 319 diagrams to be replaced.

Reported upthread that the NW is gaining 12 331/1s in exchange for 10 331/0s. Currently two three 319s are diagrammed on Liverpool - Blackpool services, which the website implies will remain 4-car, so that accounts for two three of the twelve 331/1s. In order that "some" of the Liverpool to Wigan services remain 4-car as Northern has promised, at least one 331/1 will have to be diagrammed on this route to replace a 319, leaving seven six 319 diagrams to be replaced. Also a /1 can take over a /0 Liverpool to Airport diagram in order that "some" of those services become 4-car as promised. The /0 would then take over another 319 Liverpool - Wigan diagram, leaving six five 319 diagrams to be replaced. Assuming at least 10 of the 331/1s in traffic, six five 331/1 diagrams could then replace double 331/0 formations on the Airport - Blackpool route, releasing another 12 10 single 331/0 diagrams. Currently a total of 18 331/0s are diagrammed to work in 9 pairs on Blackpool North services, so there would still be "some" 6-car services as promised.

Currently three 331s are on exams at Allerton daily. Assuming this remains the same with the slightly larger fleet (the mix of /0s and /1s would vary from day to day), still only four two 331 diagrams (including up to two /1s) would be available to replace the remaining six five 319 diagrams not accounted for above, after sending the ten 331/0s to Yorkshire.

How could the deficit of two three diagrams be covered? One 323 diagram is currently allocated to crew training. I do not know if this will be ongoing after December. Also one 323 and one 331/0 are diagrammed to be away at Wolverton on heavy maintenance. I do not know if these programmes will be ongoing continuously. Otherwise DMUs might have to work a diagram or two, some weeks at least.

 

[superkev]

P

A slight exaggeration. What Northern's website actually states for the North West is:

June 2024 Timetable Changes

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

Nevertheless, currently Northern has twelve 319s diagrammed in traffic M-F, of which four diagrams are peak only. There are no cuts to the timetable, so if all the 319s are withdrawn those 12 must be replaced by other stock.

Currently one 323 and one 331/0 are diagrammed as stabled all day, so if they are brought into traffic, e.g. on Liverpool - Wigan diagrams, that leaves ten 319 diagrams to be replaced.

Reported upthread that the NW is gaining 12 331/1s in exchange for 10 331/0s. Currently two 319s are diagrammed on Liverpool - Blackpool services, which the website implies will remain 4-car, so that accounts for two of the twelve 331/1s. In order that "some" of the Liverpool to Wigan services remain 4-car as Northern has promised, at least one 331/1 will have to be diagrammed on this route to replace a 319, leaving seven 319 diagrams to be replaced. Also a /1 can take over a /0 Liverpool to Airport diagram in order that "some" of those services become 4-car as promised. The /0 would then take over another 319 Liverpool - Wigan diagram, leaving six 319 diagrams to be replaced. Assuming at least 10 of the 331/1s in traffic, six 331/1 diagrams could then replace double 331/0 formations on the Airport - Blackpool route, releasing another 12 single 331/0 diagrams. Currently a total of 18 331/0s are diagrammed to work in 9 pairs on Blackpool North services, so there would still be "some" 6-car services as promised.

Currently three 331s are on exams at Allerton daily. Assuming this remains the same with the slightly larger fleet (the mix of /0s and /1s would vary from day to day), still only four 331 diagrams (including up to two /1s) would be available to replace the remaining six 319 diagrams not accounted for above, after sending the ten 331/0s to Yorkshire.

How could the deficit of two diagrams be covered? One 323 diagram is currently allocated to crew training. I do not know if this will be ongoing after December. Also one 323 and one 331/0 are diagrammed to be away at Wolverton on heavy maintenance. I do not know if these programmes will be ongoing continuously. Otherwise DMUs might have to work a diagram or two, some weeks at least.

With the mention of 323s with WM recently introducing a number of new trains I wonder when are the long promised 323s due to head North.
Thanks.
Kev

 

[sbrignall72]

156448 was supposed to return today but I knocked it on the head yesterday when I was at Wolverton. 156416 is currently end of October and 417 is supposedly 2nd Dec. 156471 is looking better than first thoughts corrosion wise but at the moment no set date has been mentioned. 150145 should return by end of November but that's still up in the air (not literally, it's slowly being rebuilt) and 150132 (which you didn't mention) will be after.


All 319's are off-lease at the end of November. The plans have been drawn for disposals.

What was 156448 rejected on, and how quick before a path is put back in for it.

 

[Mamorin]

P

With the mention of 323s with WM recently introducing a number of new trains I wonder when are the long promised 323s due to head North.
Thanks.
Kev

The 17 WMT 323s should start to go to Northern by the middle of next year iirc.