Northern's Problems in the North West

[Bovverboy]

I don't think that's quite correct.
During the blockade the Liverpool-Airport-Crewe is diverted to Manchester Victoria (to partly compensate for no TPE west of Victoria).
The Liverpool-Warrington BQ also diverts to Manchester Victoria, making 2tph.
The Crewe-Airport-Liverpool will normally terminate at Deansgate.
The Liverpool-Blackpool fast also becomes an extension of a Wigan slow, rather than a separate service.

Then the Lime St blockade means that for two periods within the 8 weeks Chat Moss trains will start from Huyton anyway. ​

No, they'll mostly terminate at Oxford Road, with about three per day terminating in platform 12 at Piccadilly instead. I can't find any trace of any trains starting or finishing at Deansgate - there wouldn't be a lot of point, since any trains which might have had a reason to start/finish there can now do so at Victoria instead.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

No, they'll mostly terminate at Oxford Road, with about three per day terminating in platform 12 at Piccadilly instead. I can't find any trace of any trains starting or finishing at Deansgate - there wouldn't be a lot of point, since any trains which might have had a reason to start/finish there can now do so at Victoria instead.

Yes, maybe it's changed in the last few days then.
I'm pretty sure I saw Deansgate terminators at one time.

 

[Bovverboy]

The statement from Northern seems odd to me. They say they have 1,529 drivers of whom over 400 need to sign the road to Blackpool. Really?

Over a quarter of their entire driving staff need to sign Blackpool?

Just doesn't seem to make sense. (And I write this as a former Depot Editor in a diagramming office.)

I wouldn't like to suggest an actual figure, but four hundred doesn't, to me, seem completely over the top. When things are back to normal (if ever?) there'll be close on a hundred departures a day from Blackpool North/South, and only Blackpool-based drivers (plus, perhaps, a handful of others during the course of the day) are likely to cover more than one departure, so in a day you may have 60/70 different drivers operating into Blackpool. Given that drivers from Victoria, Liverpool, Wigan, Leeds and Blackburn are going to have plenty of other work to do (even on a restricted rota) I think you would soon be able to account for getting on for four hundred.
BTW, does anyone know why Buxton crews are being included in the list of those requiring to know Blackpool? I know there used to be through trains Buxton to/from Blackpool North, but I don't think there are any now.

 

[northwichcat]

BTW, does anyone know why Buxton crews are being included in the list of those requiring to know Blackpool? I know there used to be through trains Buxton to/from Blackpool North, but I don't think there are any now.

Until the recent recast were hourly Hazel Grove to Blackpool services with some services extending to Buxton at peak times. My guess is it would have been easier to keep Buxton drivers signing Blackpool then for Buxton drivers to learn a new route and more Piccadilly/Victoria drivers to learn Blackpool.

 

[47802]

Of course just to add to the madness the afternoon 68 run got cancelled yesterday due I believe lack of Northern driver even though of course the Northern Driver doesn't actually drive the Train, so the train ran ecs with the DRS driver, today the 68's are on the longer diagram which is listed as mostly cancelled and will cause more disruption on the coast.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite likely the latter, their planning team is not big and they will be doing their best, but there is only a finite resource.

So why have they not come out and announced to passengers when this timetable will be complete and implemented?

Part of the issue is that they appear to be doing nothing while the service falls to bits in a manner even GTR haven't quite managed before (other than on the WLL).

There would be more understanding if they actually bothered to communicate. The impression I have is that they are simply floundering.

Oh, and where it's particularly bad there is no reason they couldn't contract at least some buses in now for standby/strengthening even with the rail timetable remaining as-is. Just have them park up at strategic hubs and if there's a cancellation on an infrequent or overcrowded service throw one in.

 

[Bovverboy]

Until the recent recast were hourly Hazel Grove to Blackpool services with some services extending to Buxton at peak times. My guess is it would have been easier to keep Buxton drivers signing Blackpool then for Buxton drivers to learn a new route and more Piccadilly/Victoria drivers to learn Blackpool.

Any idea how Buxton drivers are going to work to Blackpool? Re Piccadilly drivers, it's been reported on this forum that they don't sign Blackpool.

 

[blobcow]

Nothing particularly new to add here, but yesterday was pretty dire - only have to commute via Northern semi-regularly, and feeling pretty sorry for anyone who relies on them. Looks like this isn't improving today.

Left my flat in Salford at 8am and took me three hours to get to Lancaster for a meeting, foolishly purchased an advanced Northern only ticket from Deansgate. At one point the train I was meant to catch -- a Blackpool North/Windermere splitter trundled through Deansgate (about 40 minutes late at this point), but only the Blackpool half of the train, which slowed down but never stopped with a legion of passengers chasing it up the platform. Cue frustrated laughter all round. Staff had no clue what was going on, though eventually managed to get a Preston train and change, just about catching an onwards connection to Lancaster. 80 mins later than planned...

Was meant to catch the 20.43 back from Lancaster (this time to Oxford Road), which originated in Barrow. Was running 50 minutes late at one point, don't know if it ever materialised. Given the schedule of Northern trains from Preston, I actually couldn't have got home via their trains. Thankfully a very kind TPE guard let me on a Manchester Airport train so could alight at Piccadilly despite my ticket being for another TOC. (Only about 40 minutes late in the end, lucky me!)

I was expecting to make more use of Northern now that the TPE Scotland services aren't calling at Oxford Road on the new timetables, as Piccadilly is a bit of a trek. But sitting at Deansgate for an hour and a half or so yesterday morning was a real eye opener. I knew it was bad but didn't realise it was quite THAT bad. It's an unbelievable mess, and will be trying to get TPE from now on when I do have to commute. Appreciate they've had their own problems, but nothing on the same scale. Of course, as others have said, it's hard to envisage how these problems will be solved in the near future.

 

[carto]

From BBC Radio Cumbria:

BBC Radio Cumbria has learned that the Lakes Line between Oxenholme and Windermere could be closed for two months because of a shortage of train crews. Operator Northern says it's considering a number of proposals to improve the situation but isn't able to comment further

(https://twitter.com/BBC_Cumbria/status/1001712311021776896)

 

[northwichcat]

Any idea how Buxton drivers are going to work to Blackpool? Re Piccadilly drivers, it's been reported on this forum that they don't sign Blackpool.

Well more Victoria and Piccadilly crews to start learning Blackpool. Anyway it's probably easier for Buxton drivers to continue to sign Blackpool, than for Piccadilly drivers to start signing Blackpool and for Buxton drivers to start learning a route like Mid-Cheshire, given Northern's current problems.

 

[northwichcat]

- Simplified staff diagrams, i.e. one member of staff will operate one given route all shift

Easier said than done. For instance, not that many Victoria drivers sign the Mid-Cheshire line but only Victoria drivers can take the workings which include an ECS via Warrington Bank Quay or via Denton. Then you've got the issue with Buxton crews, if they only signed the Buxton line there would probably be too many of them, while if they are going to work another service starting at Piccadilly they might as well work a Buxton-Piccadilly service first otherwise you could have a driver being taxied from Buxton to Piccadilly while a Buxton to Piccadilly train ends up not running.

 

[Loop & Link]

Any idea how Buxton drivers are going to work to Blackpool? Re Piccadilly drivers, it's been reported on this forum that they don't sign Blackpool.

A typical docket might be:

Buxton - Manchester Piccadilly
Pass: Manchester Piccadilly-Wigan North Western.
Relieve xx:xxx at xx:xx
Wigan North Western - Blackpool North
PNB
Blackpool North-Manchester Oxford Road via Bolton
Relieved by xx:xxx at xx:xx
Pass: Manchester Oxford Road-Manchester Piccadilly
Manchester Piccadilly - Buxton

 

[northwichcat]

In a loosely linked to the thread kind of question how on earth do the signallers cope with trains being dumped everywhere and journeys half finished? When no-one has any idea what services are running where? Are they working to some kind of contingency plan to try and avoid blocking the main lines?

One problem that's happened multiple times already is due to an earlier cancellation a Pacer has finished up on a Sprinter diagram when the Sprinter diagram includes Buxton services, so it involves platform alterations at Piccadilly so that units get swapped around and a Sprinter goes to Buxton not a Pacer.

 

[Mathew S]

So, after a week and a half of traveling on this new timetable, and with the current 'issues,' how are things going? Well, with one or two hiccups, pretty well.

Despite many services between Wigan and Manchester (my regular route) having been canceled over the last week, I've only had two journeys which have been meaningfully disrupted.

Last Tuesday afternoon, three trains in a row from Wigan to Manchester were canceled and, thus, I had to catch a fourth. However, I still arrived less than half an hour late into Manchester, on a train that was - at its busiest - less than half full.

Then last night I had intended to catch the 2226 Barrow service from Picadilly. However, when I checked about 3 hours before it had been canceled. No big deal, as there is another train (to Blackpool) at 2234 from Oxford Road. In the end, however, and after much confusion about which of the two trains at Oxford Road would actually stop at Wigan, I was exactly half an hour late arriving back at North Western.

Over the rest of last week and the start of this one there have been other canceled and delayed services and, on a few occasions, I have ended up catching a different train than I had intended to. Though, that's as much to do with me adapting to the new timetable as it is anything else.
Northern staff I have seen, and spoken to, on the ground (the crews at Oxford Road last night in particular) have, while frustrated at the issues they're having to deal with, been going the extra mile to help customers, and I cannot praise them highly enough. This is especially true of the staff on the platform at Salford Crescent when I passed through yesterday who dealt with a rude and abusive gentleman with some considerable skill.

To summarise my experience: yes, there are problems and, yes, those problems can sometimes be frustrating. However, I haven't experienced any more issues with my regular journeys than I would in an average week, and can't fault the efforts of staff on the ground in dealing with the problems which have come up.

Obviously others' experiences may differ, and the current situation is far from perfection, but from my personal perspective it's really not been a big deal.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

From BBC Radio Cumbria:



(https://twitter.com/BBC_Cumbria/status/1001712311021776896)

Effectively, it already has been given the random cancellations - different trains on different days - with no discernible pattern.

As someone posted recently you can have a train out but not know if you are going to get home again, whether there will be a replacement bus instead or not, whether you will make your connection into subsequent trains or buses home. I won't be going anywhere near a Northern service until they get their 'stuff' together, and have done so reliably for a few weeks.

Goodbye Lake District tourists. Hope the businesses and their representative associations start making some noises about lost business. What tales will the oriental Beatrix Potter fans take home to their own countries about clueless, hapless, United Kingdom!

 

[Bletchleyite]

From BBC Radio Cumbria:

(https://twitter.com/BBC_Cumbria/status/1001712311021776896)

TBH it is probably a line where it would make sense to bustitute while the situation is sorted, because the roads are decent enough that the bus doesn't take *too* long[1] and people can plan around the service rather than hit random cancellations. Ormskirk-Preston is another, as is Kirkby-Wigan, possibly Colne, and maybe even Hazel Grove to Buxton, or Preston to Blackpool South. If you get decent coaches in people might not mind *that* much, they're nicer than Pacers. Less so Barrow and the Cumbrian Coast as the road journeys are long, slow and indirect.

[1] You might, like the Marston Vale, want to split the service into a minibus doing all stops and a coach doing Oxenholme, Kendal then fast to Windermere down the main road. Burneside and Staveley are very quiet stations; you could probably even get away with a free taxi on demand.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Easier said than done. For instance, not that many Victoria drivers sign the Mid-Cheshire line but only Victoria drivers can take the workings which include an ECS via Warrington Bank Quay or via Denton. Then you've got the issue with Buxton crews, if they only signed the Buxton line there would probably be too many of them, while if they are going to work another service starting at Piccadilly they might as well work a Buxton-Piccadilly service first otherwise you could have a driver being taxied from Buxton to Piccadilly while a Buxton to Piccadilly train ends up not running.

You design the emergency timetable around that. And better a driver planned to be in a taxi than a driver scheduled to use a cancelled train.

 

[northwichcat]

Goodbye Lake District tourists. Hope the businesses and their representative associations start making some noises about lost business. What tales will the oriental Beatrix Potter fans take home to their own countries about clueless, hapless, United Kingdom!

I would have visited Windermere this year if the Northern had implemented the half-hourly Greenbank to Manchester services plus the enhanced Airport to Cumbria services.

 

[northwichcat]

You design the emergency timetable around that. And better a driver planned to be in a taxi than a driver scheduled to use a cancelled train.

I was meaning you've have a driver in a taxi who could have driven the cancelled train if you restrict all drivers to one route only.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would have visited Windermere this year if the Northern had implemented the half-hourly Greenbank to Manchester services plus the enhanced Airport to Cumbria services.

Why didn't you visit it anyway? You could have taken an hourly service to Manchester then a TPE to Oxenholme then the branch (or a bus if the branch was off). Even the 555 from Lancaster is a pleasant enough ride on very nice new coach-seated buses.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

TBH it is probably a line where it would make sense to bustitute while the situation is sorted, because the roads are decent enough that the bus doesn't take *too* long[1] and people can plan around the service rather than hit random cancellations. Ormskirk-Preston is another, as is Kirkby-Wigan, possibly Colne, and maybe even Hazel Grove to Buxton. If you get decent coaches in people might not mind *that* much, they're nicer than Pacers. Less so Barrow and the Cumbrian Coast as the road journeys are long, slow and indirect.

[1] You might, like the Marston Vale, want to split the service into a minibus doing all stops and a coach doing Oxenholme, Kendal then fast to Windermere down the main road.

Roads around Oxenholme station are poor, the bus takes twice as long as the train (non stop is only 5 minutes quicker than all-stations), less or no luggage room, no cycle spaces, no pram spaces, no toilets except at Oxenholme and Windermere, traffic into Windermere itself is often awful. Other than that I agree entirely!

Certainty of a bus replacement is better than randomness. I would suggest an improved frequency of RRB's over the train service would counter the longer journey i.e. an RRB every 20 or 30 minutes instead of hourly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was meaning you've have a driver in a taxi who could have driven the cancelled train if you restrict all drivers to one route only.

If you keep it simple you could indeed move staff around. The key is ensuring simplicity, as it's easier to manage things to maximise what is operated.

It's actually a principle GTR are applying to the Southern timetable - cutting the splitting and joining, keeping trains maximum length all day and simplifying staff diagrams. It's a solid (if slightly inefficient) way to make a service very reliable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Certainty of a bus replacement is better than randomness. I would suggest an improved frequency of RRB's over the train service would counter the longer journey i.e. an RRB every 20 or 30 minutes instead of hourly.

As a good many people on the branch are connecting from other trains, a significant improvement would be provided by timing them to depart 5 minutes after another connection arrives but yes, up the frequency. That's actually the solid reasoning behind the progressive move to routes having say 2tph of skip-stop regional expresses rather than 1tph fast and 1tph slow (look at things like Liverpool-Brum, or indeed lots of German examples).

 

[BrianB]

Link to 2 press releases just out regarding NT and GTR performance

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

 

[Bantamzen]

Link to 2 press releases just out regarding NT and GTR performance

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

I wouldn't want to be in NR's System Operator division right now. The knives, nay the axes will be out in force. However if make for some excellent new career opportunities in the near future for anyone with the necessary skillset, and willingness to take on this kind of large scale planning. I for one however will not be applying, I don't need that amount of pressure in my life!

 

[northwichcat]

Link to 2 press releases just out regarding NT and GTR performance

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

I just hope Grayling's comment of "I will insist on a gradual approach wherever possible to timetable change and not the significant changes we have seen this month" isn't taken too far and we end up with enhancements not going ahead just so we don't have too many all at once.

 

[whitrope69]

Network Rail sign up to these mega projects and timetable recasts with little hope on delivering to specification and to agreed timescales. The vultures in the owning groups are happy to stand side by side with N.R colleagues at contract award and then hang N.R out to dry when promises which were never going to be delivered fail to materialise. Northern seem to blame all of their woes on Bolton electrification being late when I am sure performance and driver shortages have dogged the franchise for a number of years. T.L have had a team in place since at least 2010 preparing for ATO/ETCS and a 24tph high peak hour through the core.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Interesting that Network Rail are in the DfT firing line more than Northern or GTR.
The Northern/TPE timetable planning of course goes back to the 2015 ITT and the various TSR schedules defined there.
It was also supposed to be introduced in December last, so NR can hardly complain about lack of planning time.
The sudden change due to the delay in Manchester-Preston wiring is also down to NR's IP (Infrastructure Projects) division not being able to forecast completion properly, even after repeated previous delays.
I'm sure Northern have contributed their own planning failures to the situation, but I can see why the NR System Operator function is seen as the primary culprit.
The problems also call into question the planning and business case for Northern Hub (eg Ordsall Curve) and the Picc/Oxford Road non-improvements.
As to wielding the axe, Mr Paonessa (head of IP) is still there despite the repeated failures of electrification projects.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Why didn't you visit it anyway? You could have taken an hourly service to Manchester then a TPE to Oxenholme then the branch (or a bus if the branch was off). Even the 555 from Lancaster is a pleasant enough ride on very nice new coach-seated buses.

Yes. But how how much time would he have to enjoy the Lake District before the return journey?
I have some sympathy with her/him. I bought a railcard with the intention of spending time around Silverdale and Arnside this May and June but the hassle would kill the enjoyment of the day - Northern's twitter account, for example, says Preston to Barrow severely disrupted today. The railcard will not be renewed. Will have to drive there in my little car and forego an early evening pint to round off the day before a relaxing ride home.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Yes. But how how much time would he have to enjoy the Lake District before the return journey?
I have some sympathy with her/him. I bought a railcard with the intention of spending time around Silverdale and Arnside this May and June but the hassle would kill the enjoyment of the day - Northern's twitter account, for example, says Preston to Barrow severely disrupted today. The railcard will not be renewed. Will have to drive there in my little car and forego an early evening pint to round off the day before a relaxing ride home.

PS The 555 timetable shows just short of two hours to get from Lancaster to Windermere.