Northumberland Line reopening: progress updates

[Railwaysceptic]

I haven't been following this too much, but what hope is there this will be a successful route? I can see services being well used as it serves some sizeable population centres with relatively cheap fares, plus recent re-openings have exceeded expectations. However it still had a sizeable price tag to build that went somewhat over budget, and will the cheap-looking fares actually raise enough revenue to support the service?

That very much depends on the definition of a successful route. It is extremely unlikely to pay its way, let alone generate enough revenue to finance the investment. Many railway enthusiasts believe a successful route is one that provides a useful service, regardless of how much money it costs taxpayers. There are even some enthusiasts who believe a service used by only a handful of people is successful.

 

[Brush 4]

Given that most services nationally are subsidised, the question of paying its way is redundant. If that were the only criteria, nothing would reopen and most lines would close. Yes, a useful and well patronised service is the definition of a successful route, bearing in mind the above. Nothing to do with enthusiasts, just a statement of fact.

 

[duffield]

That very much depends on the definition of a successful route. It is extremely unlikely to pay its way, let alone generate enough revenue to finance the investment. Many railway enthusiasts believe a successful route is one that provides a useful service, regardless of how much money it costs taxpayers. There are even some enthusiasts who believe a service used by only a handful of people is successful.

Just because a line is subsidised, it doesn't *necessarily* mean it has a nett cost to the taxpayer; the subsidy may be more than offset by the wider economic benefits. A cheap and reliable service from a deprived area to a nearby centre of employment may result in less people on benefits and more tax revenue, and also make that deprived area a more popular place to live which will generate demand for new housing and businesses there. Unfortunately, none of this will show up in the rail budget, which sees only the cost of the subsidy.

I'm not saying whether this will or won't happen in this particular case.

 

[androdas]

One of the key points of the original business case for the Northumberland Line was that Land Value Capture would be used as a funding source. Apparently the first time this has been used as a source of funding for a rail project. This means the success of the project is not measured in the amount of money it brings in but in the net reduction in taxpayer burden having the line open versus not through economic activity and money supplied by developers.

From the World Resources Institute:

Land value capture (LVC) is a financing tool that allows local governments to collect fees and taxes from property owners and developers to raise revenue for community services. It's a way for governments to ensure that some of the value generated by public investments is reinvested into the community.

Developing Cities Need Cash. Land Value Capture Can Help

Three case studies show how developing cities can implement land value capture to generate significant public revenue and support equitable urban development.

www.wri.org

From one of the early council press releases:

The new line is also made possible by the groundbreaking use of land value capture as a funding source, which will help to lower the long-term burden on the taxpayer. It has been the first time this method has been used to help fund a UK rail project and would not have been possible without the co-operation from private landowners.


George Hazel OBE, Director of E-Rail, said: “We’re delighted that this line has achieved the green light and that Northumberland will be showcasing to the world how E-Rail’s Land Value Capture method can be used to help fund new lines.”

Northumberland County Council - Multi-million pound investment in Northumberland Line

The news that the green light’s been given to multi-million pound funding towards the Northumberland Line has been welcomed by the council and its partners.

www.northumberland.gov.uk

 

[55002]

Is today the first revenue earning day? I see 2T05 is on the move

 

[Andy Pacer]

Is today the first revenue earning day? I see 2T05 is on the move

Yes, today is timetable change date which includes the introduction of these services.

 

[androdas]

Yes 2T05 is the first in service train tro Ashington.

And here it is passing over North Seaton Viaduct into Ashington about a minute ago as the towns first revenue passenger train since 1964!



you cant see on the photo as it is actually a bit darker than it appears but it looked understandably busy

 

[A S Leib]

it looked understandably busy

It was.

 

[Mag_seven]

it looked understandably busy

Probably full of the usual suspects with GoPros.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Probably full of the usual suspects with GoPros.

Certainly a significant minority but by no means the majority. Rather oddly most of the people around me seemed to be engineers who had worked on the project at various stages!

 

[WesternLancer]

That very much depends on the definition of a successful route. It is extremely unlikely to pay its way, let alone generate enough revenue to finance the investment. Many railway enthusiasts believe a successful route is one that provides a useful service, regardless of how much money it costs taxpayers. There are even some enthusiasts who believe a service used by only a handful of people is successful.

And as well as this there can be other measures of success that won’t ever show on the railway balance sheet. Eg people able to access jobs in places they couldn’t easily get to work at before. Impact on house prices because the line impacts on economic activity, investment decisions firms might make because of the services provided by having the line etc.

I’ve been planning a trip so started to look into things to do when I’m in Ashington. All of them will involve spending money there that would otherwise not have been spent in the town. Of course the railway will only get a small slice of that money.

Edit - I see @duffield has made points like mine rather better!

 

[Taunton]

I think my point is on topic and avoids those 'gentle reminders' but in the mainstream news today are some notable comments on delivery of what was portrayed as a simple project. Here:

MSN

www.msn.com

Double the budget, 18 months late. And for a project that is portrayed as a new rapid way to get around, film of the first train creeping into the starting station at slow walking pace doesn't really give the best of images.

One does indeed wonder how much of the budget (and then its overspend) went on umpteen studies, reports, doing the same review two or three times, and such like, rather than real concrete and steel being laid.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Just because a line is subsidised, it doesn't *necessarily* mean it has a nett cost to the taxpayer; the subsidy may be more than offset by the wider economic benefits. A cheap and reliable service from a deprived area to a nearby centre of employment may result in less people on benefits and more tax revenue, and also make that deprived area a more popular place to live which will generate demand for new housing and businesses there. Unfortunately, none of this will show up in the rail budget, which sees only the cost of the subsidy.

I'm not saying whether this will or won't happen in this particular case.

Yes, and that was what I referred to in the third sentence of my post.

 

[transportphoto]

Did anyone manage to suss out the mileage from Newcastle to Seaton Delaval, and then onwards to Ashington?

 

[androdas]

I think my point is on topic and avoids those 'gentle reminders' but in the mainstream news today are some notable comments on delivery of what was portrayed as a simple project. Here:



Double the budget, 18 months late. And for a project that is portrayed as a new rapid way to get around, film of the first train creeping into the starting station at slow walking pace doesn't really give the best of images.

One does indeed wonder how much of the budget (and then its overspend) went on umpteen studies, reports, doing the same review two or three times, and such like, rather than real concrete and steel being laid.

Ill take your point on the delay and overspend, Northumberland County Council cant do anything in budget or on time but it is a bay platform so not sure they could come wellying into it!

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Given that most services nationally are subsidised, the question of paying its way is redundant. If that were the only criteria, nothing would reopen and most lines would close. Yes, a useful and well patronised service is the definition of a successful route, bearing in mind the above. Nothing to do with enthusiasts, just a statement of fact.

I'm sorry but no. That's a statement of an opinion, not a fact. Except in extreme cases, it's my own opinion but I recognise that my opinion and a fact are different.

 

[xotGD]

One does indeed wonder how much of the budget (and then its overspend) went on umpteen studies, reports, doing the same review two or three times, and such like, rather than real concrete and steel being laid.

Perhaps if they had spent more on up-front studies they'd have had a more accurate cost estimate before taking the final investment decision?

Capital costs have escalated massively in the past few years across many industrial sectors. Covid, war, supply chain constraints, and the cost escalation is well ahead of general inflation.

Just taking the cost from the last project, scaling it, and adding a few percent doesn't work any more.

 

[swt_passenger]

Did anyone manage to suss out the mileage from Newcastle to Seaton Delaval, and then onwards to Ashington?

We did much of the work on Friday, (post #1218 and replies), it’s 3 separate mileages from Benton North Junction to Ashington totalling 14m 25ch, and Newcastle to Benton North Jn is 4m 24ch, so 18m 49ch alltogether.

Might need to knock a few ch off for P1s offset from the station 0 point for absolute accuracy?

For Newcastle to Seaton Delaval it will be the same 4m 24ch to Benton North Jn as before, plus the 2m 53ch to Earsdon Jn, plus the 2m 64ch to Seaton Delaval, totalling 9m 61 ch.

 

[Brush 4]

If a useful and well patronised service isn't part of the official definition beyond only financial criteria then, that illustrates what is wrong with the system. As i said just above that line, there would be few services anywhere without subsidies. So, other factors are taken into consideration beyond purely financial so, not an opinion.
There is something called the Rail Social Value Tool that takes into account non financial benefits.

 

[Oxfordblues]

As a political aside I see it as a dreadful irony that the line was closed by Thomas Fraser (Labour) who authorised the closure of 1,071 miles of railway lines, but it took a Tory secretary-of-state (Grant Shapps) to authorise the reopening, ironically under a Labour government.

 

[Bald Rick]

I’ve been planning a trip so started to look into things to do when I’m in Ashington. All of them will involve spending money there that would otherwise not have been spent in the town. Of course the railway will only get a small slice of that money.

Whilst this is true, it is also the case that had the line not been opened then your money would have been spent elsewhere. Assuming that ‘elsewhere’ is in the UK, the net effect on the economy at national level will be broadly neutral. So people who visit the area who otherwise wouldn‘t have done so are helping the local economy, but not necessarily the Uk economy.

Where this does help the UK economy is to improve access between where people live and where jobs are. Essentially this enables people to have access to higher paid jobs, or looking at it another way, employers to have access to cheaper labour. This improves productivity in terms of output per £ sepnt, and that does improve the economy.

 

[WesternLancer]

Whilst this is true, it is also the case that had the line not been opened then your money would have been spent elsewhere. Assuming that ‘elsewhere’ is in the UK, the net effect on the economy at national level will be broadly neutral. So people who visit the area who otherwise wouldn‘t have done so are helping the local economy, but not necessarily the Uk economy.

Where this does help the UK economy is to improve access between where people live and where jobs are. Essentially this enables people to have access to higher paid jobs, or looking at it another way, employers to have access to cheaper labour. This improves productivity in terms of output per £ sepnt, and that does improve the economy.

Definitely agree with these points. Tho it’s possible my spend would simply sit in my bank account unspent, or in this case as its combined with a holiday in Northumberland probably spent in places with more economic prosperity than Ashington eg Newcastle City centre or perhaps Holy Island.

 

[Taunton]

I'll take your point on the delay and overspend, Northumberland County Council cant do anything in budget or on time but it is a bay platform so not sure they could come wellying into it!

Possibly a good political football, but Northumberland County Council do not appear to have been one of the myriad authorities who have been "partners" in this, on the face of it quite simplistic, development, all of whom doubtless added their staff costs in some form or other to the bill.

The project is supported by a number of key partners, including the Department for Transport (DfT), Transport for the North (TfN), Nexus and Northern Trains Limited, North Tyneside Council, North of Tyne Combined Authority and Newcastle City Council.

Whilst this is true, it is also the case that had the line not been opened then your money would have been spent elsewhere. Assuming that ‘elsewhere’ is in the UK, the net effect on the economy at national level will be broadly neutral. So people who visit the area who otherwise wouldn‘t have done so are helping the local economy, but not necessarily the Uk economy.

That's a public authority budget approach; "There's some money, and we are going to spend it before somebody else does". An alternative view is the money would not be spent, the taxes would not be collected for funding it, and individuals in the population would have more of their own money to spend on what they want.

 

[Tetragon213]

Certainly a significant minority but by no means the majority. Rather oddly most of the people around me seemed to be engineers who had worked on the project at various stages!

To be fair, as someone who is tangentially working on TRU at an arm's length, I do plan on taking a full trip from Manchester to Leeds when all is said and done; I kind of want to see the realisation of all our work!

 

[Kite159]

Did anyone manage to suss out the mileage from Newcastle to Seaton Delaval, and then onwards to Ashington?

From this post (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/national-routeing-guide-update.99396/page-58#post-7073918) on the National Routeing Guide update thread:

Station link changes:
Ashington (ASL) to Bedlington (BEJ) now has a distance of 1.99.
Bedlington (BEJ) to Blyth Bebside (BLI) now has a distance of 1.70.
Blyth Bebside (BLI) to Newsham (NWH) now has a distance of 1.70.
Newsham (NWH) to Seaton Delaval (SEJ) now has a distance of 2.10.
Northumberland Park (T&W) (NOP) to Seaton Delaval (SEJ) now has a distance of 3.06.
Manors (MAS) to Northumberland Park (T&W) (NOP) now has a distance of 5.88.
Ashington (ASL) to Newsham (NWH) now has a distance of 5.39.
Ashington (ASL) to Seaton Delaval (SEJ) now has a distance of 7.49.
Newcastle (NCL) to Seaton Delaval (SEJ) now has a distance of 9.52.

I presume the distances are in miles

 

[swt_passenger]

From this post (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/national-routeing-guide-update.99396/page-58#post-7073918) on the National Routeing Guide update thread:

Station link changes:
Ashington (ASL) to Bedlington (BEJ) now has a distance of 1.99.
Bedlington (BEJ) to Blyth Bebside (BLI) now has a distance of 1.70.
Blyth Bebside (BLI) to Newsham (NWH) now has a distance of 1.70.
Newsham (NWH) to Seaton Delaval (SEJ) now has a distance of 2.10.
Northumberland Park (T&W) (NOP) to Seaton Delaval (SEJ) now has a distance of 3.06.
Manors (MAS) to Northumberland Park (T&W) (NOP) now has a distance of 5.88.
Ashington (ASL) to Newsham (NWH) now has a distance of 5.39.
Ashington (ASL) to Seaton Delaval (SEJ) now has a distance of 7.49.
Newcastle (NCL) to Seaton Delaval (SEJ) now has a distance of 9.52.

I presume the distances are in miles

Quite a few are different to the online sectional appendix then. Does it matter though?

 

[androdas]

Possibly a good political football, but Northumberland County Council do not appear to have been one of the myriad authorities who have been "partners" in this, on the face of it quite simplistic, development, all of whom doubtless added their staff costs in some form or other to the bill.




That's a public authority budget approach; "There's some money, and we are going to spend it before somebody else does". An alternative view is the money would not be spent, the taxes would not be collected for funding it, and individuals in the population would have more of their own money to spend on what th

? The entire project has been ran by Northumberland County Council. Source: I live there. Morgan Sindall (and others) are contractors to NCC who have actually built it.

Northumberland County Council (NCC) appointed SLC and AECOM (via the Perfect Circle joint venture), and an ambitious new strategy was created for the Northumberland Line, making it the biggest third-party-funded rail upgrade project in the UK directly developed and promoted by a local authority. Our multidisciplinary teams helped the local authority navigate complex rules and design development, while also developing a strategic full business case for the project, which highlights the vital economic stimulus for the region.

Northumberland Line - SLC Rail

Appointed to advise and assist Northumberland County Council with the development of the £162 million scheme.

slcrail.com

Signing said contract: https://www.northumberland.gov.uk/News/2023/Jul/Northumberland-Line-station-contracts-signed.aspx

Their project website: https://www.northumberlandline.uk/

Granted most of the cash has come from central government but to say this is nothing to do with Northumberland County Council is just wrong.

Just to be clear im not trying to be political (I personally think the council is about as well run as it has been for a long time despite a lot of flaws) and credit where credit is due for promoting this scheme as a local authority.

 

[swt_passenger]

? The entire project has been ran by Northumberland County Council. Source: I live there. Morgan Sindall (and others) are contractors to NCC who have actually built it.

Their project website: https://www.northumberlandline.uk/

Yes, I think the problem is that quoted list, (that I think @Taunton possibly took from the Network Rail project page?), has a major error in that it’s not listing the county council. But a read through this thread would clearly show that Northumberland have done all the preliminary studies, and applied for the TWA Order, and issue all the news, PR, traffic and road closure bulletins, etc etc. Their influence is everywhere, even if DfT hold the ultimate purse strings.

 

[xotGD]

From this post (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/national-routeing-guide-update.99396/page-58#post-7073918) on the National Routeing Guide update thread:

Station link changes:
Ashington (ASL) to Bedlington (BEJ) now has a distance of 1.99.
Bedlington (BEJ) to Blyth Bebside (BLI) now has a distance of 1.70.
Blyth Bebside (BLI) to Newsham (NWH) now has a distance of 1.70.
Newsham (NWH) to Seaton Delaval (SEJ) now has a distance of 2.10.
Northumberland Park (T&W) (NOP) to Seaton Delaval (SEJ) now has a distance of 3.06.
Manors (MAS) to Northumberland Park (T&W) (NOP) now has a distance of 5.88.
Ashington (ASL) to Newsham (NWH) now has a distance of 5.39.
Ashington (ASL) to Seaton Delaval (SEJ) now has a distance of 7.49.
Newcastle (NCL) to Seaton Delaval (SEJ) now has a distance of 9.52.

I presume the distances are in miles

Of course, when it is a 4-car set the end to end distance is slightly less than when it is a 2-car set.

 

[transportphoto]

Of course, when it is a 4-car set the end to end distance is slightly less than when it is a 2-car set.

Is it? My brain doesn’t currently understand this logic - could you elaborate?

Mileage wise, thanks to the earlier posts - I’ll summarise what I believe to be correct:

• NCL to ASL = 18 miles and 49 chains
• ASL to SEJ = 9 miles and 61 chains
• SEJ to NCL = 8 miles and 68 chains