Northumberland Line to be re-opened to passengers

[Starmill]

I wouldn't try to draw too much from the Borders Railway personally. Its full business case predicted a benefit cost ratio of just 0.5, and it is having its service reduced permanently from 2 trains per hour to just 1.

 

[swt_passenger]

I wouldn't try to draw too much from the Borders Railway personally. Its full business case predicted a benefit cost ratio of just 0.5, and it is having its service reduced permanently from 2 trains per hour to just 1.

I also don’t think the reputation the Borders line has for its perceived difficulty in redoubling applies to the Blyth and Tyne in anywhere like the same way, it’s a bit of an irrelevant comparison to me…

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Cycle lanes have nothing to do with it. But as it happens narrowing urban road lanes for motorised vehicles is a good thing because it keeps roads safer and easier to use.

That's very much a matter of opinion. The point MotCO made in post 291 about increasing congestion and air pollution is valid, particularly in Central London where, despite there now being fewer vehicles and many of those either electric or hybrid, vehicle emissions and deaths from respiratory problems have increased.

 

[Bald Rick]

particularly in Central London where, despite there now being fewer vehicles and many of those either electric or hybrid, vehicle emissions and deaths from respiratory problems have increased.

Evidence for that statement?

It seems the facts don’t support it.

‘Dramatic’ plunge in London air pollution since 2016, report finds

Exclusive: Number of people living with illegal pollution levels has fallen by 94% since Sadiq Khan became mayor

www.theguardian.com

 

[Robertj21a]

That's very much a matter of opinion. The point MotCO made in post 291 about increasing congestion and air pollution is valid, particularly in Central London where, despite there now being fewer vehicles and many of those either electric or hybrid, vehicle emissions and deaths from respiratory problems have increased.

That flies in the face of what I understood.

 

[themiller]

Evidence for that statement?

It seems the facts don’t support it.

‘Dramatic’ plunge in London air pollution since 2016, report finds

Exclusive: Number of people living with illegal pollution levels has fallen by 94% since Sadiq Khan became mayor

www.theguardian.com

Deaths from air pollution do not stop immediately the source of the pollution has been reduced or eliminated. There’s a lag due to the medical condition continuing to progress after the critical trigger amount of pollutant has been absorbed by the subject. This can take years in the case of asbestos but days in the case of Covid-19. I know the latter is a virus but it’s an example of a substance which is foreign to the body. If you want another fast example, cyanide can kill within a few minutes of exposure.

 

[Bald Rick]

Deaths from air pollution do not stop immediately the source of the pollution has been reduced or eliminated.

Of course. But there was a statement that vehicle emissions had increased in London, which is patently not the case.

 

[Starmill]

That's very much a matter of opinion.

If your opinion is I'm a car driver and I want more space on this road to drive more quickly then yes it is. Hopefully that's not your view though and you agree that we need to look again at all of our road space to ensure that it is being distributed fairly note that there's no real difference in air pollution from traffic that's slower to traffic that's faster, the only way to reduce air pollution from road traffic is to have less motorised traffic.

In any case that's well off topic.

 

[Starmill]

I note that the Inquiry has now concluded.

Apparently it progressed more or less as expected. The Inspector's report is expected before the end of February, and a decision from the Secretary of State to grant the Orders before the end of May.

 

[Killingworth]

I note that the Inquiry has now concluded.

Apparently it progressed more or less as expected. The Inspector's report is expected before the end of February, and a decision from the Secretary of State to grant the Orders before the end of May.

Clearly being fast tracked, but there's been a long build up to this point.

 

[Starmill]

Clearly being fast tracked, but there's been a long build up to this point.

Indeed. There are actually four applications for orders open at present, this one has just about hit the targets under project "SPEED".

 

[geoffk]

Aristocrat branded 'Scrooge McDuke' over demands that could scupper railway plan

The Duke of Northumberland is demanding a yearly rent that could bring a halt to plans to reinstate the Northumberland line

www.chroniclelive.co.uk

Ralph Percy, Duke of Northumberland, one of the richest men in the North East, is said to have demanded £600,000 a year in rent for trains to travel across his estates. Is this just media hype or is it a serious obstacle to reopening?

 

[Bald Rick]

Aristocrat branded 'Scrooge McDuke' over demands that could scupper railway plan

The Duke of Northumberland is demanding a yearly rent that could bring a halt to plans to reinstate the Northumberland line

www.chroniclelive.co.uk

Ralph Percy, Duke of Northumberland, one of the richest men in the North East, is said to have demanded £600,000 a year in rent for trains to travel across his estates. Is this just media hype or is it a serious obstacle to reopening?

ah, Lord Percy. A colleague of mine from Blackadder.

 

[themiller]

Aristocrat branded 'Scrooge McDuke' over demands that could scupper railway plan

The Duke of Northumberland is demanding a yearly rent that could bring a halt to plans to reinstate the Northumberland line

www.chroniclelive.co.uk

Ralph Percy, Duke of Northumberland, one of the richest men in the North East, is said to have demanded £600,000 a year in rent for trains to travel across his estates. Is this just media hype or is it a serious obstacle to reopening?

I would think that the railway would be built on land owned by NR so any such claim wouldn’t have any basis in law.

 

[snowball]

I would think that the railway would be built on land owned by NR so any such claim wouldn’t have any basis in law.

According to the article that is not the case. NR merely have wayleaves.

 

[themiller]

According to the article that is not the case. NR merely have wayleaves.

A compulsory purchase order would sort that out. After all, NR is a government owned company.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A compulsory purchase order would sort that out. After all, NR is a government owned company.

Can anyone give a date when a compulsory service order was last made in respect of land access over land owned by the aristocracy?

 

[507020]

According to the article that is not the case. NR merely have wayleaves.

Can someone explain the concept of wayleaves and how and why they were used by the North Eastern Railway and other railway companies? Presumably they were unable to purchase land in the 1840s but such inability should be of no consequence to the present day. Why is “Scrooge McDuke” trying to perpetuate such wayleaves and not able to come to a more modern agreement which may be the sale of land to Network Rail for £1 or it’s indefinite use by the railway rent-free.

(It was not unheard of in the 1840s for wealthy landowners to donate their land to new railway companies, which demonstrates how welcoming they were of trains passing over their land)

I also want to know how deep you actually own if you own land. Presumably you do not own everything below a given footprint all the way to the centre of the Earth.

Can anyone give a date when a compulsory service order was last made in respect of land access over land owned by the aristocracy?

Another very good question.

 

[zwk500]

Can someone explain the concept of wayleaves and how and why they were used by the North Eastern Railway and other railway companies?

A wayleave is similar to an easement. They were already present for the Wagonways that moved coal from pit to coast and the dukes refused to sell the land when the railway took over those alignments.

Presumably they were unable to purchase land in the 1840s but such inability should be of no consequence to the present day. Why is “Scrooge McDuke” trying to perpetuate such wayleaves and not able to come to a more modern agreement which may be the sale of land to Network Rail for £1 or it’s indefinite use by the railway rent-free.

Because he's obviously decided that the money is worth the negative reputation. I'm sure his castle is rather expensive to run, so I can understand why he might see holding the government to ransom as a good opportunity.

(It was not unheard of in the 1840s for wealthy landowners to donate their land to new railway companies, which demonstrates how welcoming they were of trains passing over their land)

It was also not unheard of the landowners to force railways to run miles out of the way or through tunnels to avoid disturbing their estates, which proves how opposed some were to trains passing over their land.

I also want to know how deep you actually own if you own land. Presumably you do not own everything below a given footprint all the way to the centre of the Earth.

I believe traditionally you do retain rights to all the minerals in the ground underneath your land.

A compulsory purchase order is still more expensive to get than just making a big offer to buy the land conventionally.

 

[The Ham]

I believe traditionally you do retain rights to all the minerals in the ground underneath your land.

Whilst that's true in part, as always it's not that straight forward, this article gives a bit more detail, however things like coal, oil, gas, gold and silver have more complicated arrangements:

What is legally my land - claims.co.uk ™

What is your land? The legal definition of land has far more meanings than just the actually earth beneath our feet. What constitutes your land and therefore your belongings goes far beyond just your house and garden and there are many ways in establishing whether something like a running stream...

www.inbrief.co.uk

Mines and minerals​

Under the common law, all mines and minerals which lie beneath the soil of the land owned by the landowner belongs wholly to the landowner. There are a few exceptions to this rule; for instance, under section 9 of the Coal Industry Act 1994, coal belongs to the Coal Authority.


All the rights in petroleum, including mineral oil and natural gas found under or on a landowner’s property, are property of the Crown under section 2 of the Petroleum Act 1998. The Crown is also entitled to all gold and silver found in gold and silver mines on or beneath anyone’s property.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It was also not unheard of the landowners to force railways to run miles out of the way or through tunnels to avoid disturbing their estates, which proves how opposed some were to trains passing over their land.

In the 1860's, the Midland Railway met with implacable opposition from the Duke of Rutland, as they wished to cross his ancestral Haddon Hall estate in the Rowsley area at surface level. The Midland Railway were forced to build their line through the 1058 yard long Haddon tunnel instead, so the Duke could retain an unobtrusive view of his estate.

 

[InOban]

A lot would depend on whether they were investors in the railway!

Seriously, given that the railway already has wayleave over the route, why is their a problem?

 

[zwk500]

Seriously, given that the railway already has wayleave over the route, why is their a problem?

There's a problem because rent is charged on the wayleave, and the Duke is whacking it up. If the railway simply refused to pay it would, in theory, be required to stop running.

 

[WesternLancer]

I thought all this sort of thing ended with nationalisation but clearly not.

Sadly the article does not divulge much by way of facts or interpretation - but has this charge been levied all the time when it was a freight only route and thus at least in recent years lightly used, and why is it changing now? Does the passage of more trains per day justify a charge increase?

 

[adrock1976]

Would Percy be cutting off his nose to spite his face here?

In the scenario that no passenger trains were able to run, there would be no visitors to his stately home.

 

[androdas]

The Duke's seat is Alnwick, Doubt he has ever even been to Blyth or Ashington

 

[zwk500]

Would Percy be cutting off his nose to spite his face here?

In the scenario that no passenger trains were able to run, there would be no visitors to his stately home.

I suspect people touring a country house/castle are much, much more likely to drive than get a train and bus/taxi connection.

 

[bramling]

In the 1860's, the Midland Railway met with implacable opposition from the Duke of Rutland, as they wished to cross his ancestral Haddon Hall estate in the Rowsley area at surface level. The Midland Railway were forced to build their line through the 1058 yard long Haddon tunnel instead, so the Duke could retain an unobtrusive view of his estate.

And, ironically, Haddon Hall *remains* a problem in any plans to re-use the alignment for either a footpath or an extension of Peak Rail. Given the presence of the tunnel, which would continue to serve its original purpose in hiding things from Haddon Hall, and the fact they’ve never used the tunnel for any purpose, I find this opposition extremely belligerent.

 

[jkkne]

It sounds like he's holding out based on a longer running dispute with Network Rail and using this as a weapon of sorts.

The Duke and especially his wife, are incredibly popular and well liked locally (as a result of charity and their investment in the area as a whole) so the Scrooge McDuck line isn't landing so well locally - the inept Ronnie Gill (Chronicle) newspaper once again being a vacant mouthpiece for whiny local councillors

 

[Neptune]

ah, Lord Percy. A colleague of mine from Blackadder.

He could use the money to make more nuggets of pure green.