Notice of Prosecution, Barry to Cardiff Queen Street

[BarryTraveller]

Hi, apologies if this has already been raised, I have read through the forum but can't find this exact situation.

I have received a letter from Transport Investigations Ltd regarding interview I had with a revenue protection office I had at Cardiff Queen Street station, after travelling from Barry on Arriva Trains Wales.

The story is as follows. I have taken this journey for years, I always try to buy a ticket at Barry, there are barriers at Queen Street and there is always a queue there to buy a ticket. I arrived at Barry Station in time to buy a ticket, have done this for years so always try to give myself enough time. Except this time the ticket machine and booking office were unusually busy. The train pulled up early, so I got on (there are no barriers at Barry), I got on at the door the conductor opened so I could buy a ticket from them. However the train was a bit busy so the conductor went back to the cabin. Therefore ended up queuing at Queen Street. I got to the ticket person and asked for a return from Barry, as I was about to pay a RP officer pulled me to one side and interviewed me. I gave the above story and have now received a notice saying Transport Investigations propose to take action.

I have the opportunity to provide mitigation to be considered, pay a fine of 73.20, or have my case heard by a magistrates.

Looking at the information they provided relating to Byelaw 18, I understand now that the byelaw states you must obtain a ticket at the first opportunity. However I was making no attempt to fare dodge, and was in the middle of purchasing a ticket. I also understand that there must be a cost to ATW in staffing queen street station with ticket sellers, but due to the way the south Wales train line and stations are designed, they will always need these people (unless they change the stations).

I am so down about this, mainly because I have been a very good customer over the years and now have been treated like a criminal.

Has anyone had any success with providing mitigation, or even going through the magistrates? Any advice to give.

I understand the black and white of the byelaw, but wonder if consideration is given to circumstances, such as:
- I have never been given any indication previously by the conductor on the train or at Queen Street that this is wrong. I have done this many times in the past and have never been challenged that it is wrong to do so.
- I was in the process of purchasing a ticket
- Their application of the law seems to be inconstant and variable
- I try to give myself enough time to purchase a ticket, however the station was busier than normal and referring to my first point, I have never had an issue if I haven't bought at Barry before.
- There is nothing preventing you from boarding the train at Barry station without a ticket.

Anything anyone can give me would be great, at this stage I guess my best option would be to pay the fine, but I feel so put out by this whole situation, I'd like to fight this if possible.

Many thanks in advance for any advice/guidance

For info - I only make this journey two times a week so don't buy a season ticket. When I used to make this journey more regularly I used to buy one.

 

[bb21]

How long did you leave yourself for buying the ticket? If you left yourself more than a reasonable amount of time, say, ten minutes during off-peak times and actually queued for that long then I think you have a strong case for complaint, especially if you could provide photographic evidence of the situation that day.

That said, unfortunately it would not absolve your responsibilities under the Railway Byelaws so that much is pretty black and white. (It sucks I know.) A long queue at the ticket office does not provide a valid line of defence automatically.

I don't see how the other points you raised makes any difference either.

What I suggest you do is pay the £73 requested but "under protest" and complain to ATW regarding this. If you get nowhere then it might be worth taking the matter to Passenger Focus as the next step.

If you have no evidence from your part to demonstrate how bad the situation was on that day, I think you may just have to put this one down to experience.

 

[Greenback]

Hello, and welcome to the forum.

I'm afraid that ATW are cracking down on people who do not buy a ticket at the first opportunity. I'm sure you'll understand that there has been quite a lot of fare evasion in the Cardiff and Valleys area over the years, not necessarily by people who have no intention of paying their fare, but who think that if they aren't challenged, they don't have to. Of course, there are also the intentional evaders too.

Anyway, ATW have put up posters all over the trains and stations to remind people that they have to buy a ticket at the first available opportunity, which when you get on at Barry means the ticket office or TVM there, not on the train or at your destination.

What I might do in your circumstances is to argue that they waiting time at Barry was unreasonably long. However, I use the word 'might' as you mentioned that the train arrived early, which could well mean that it was a late running service and not the train you intended to catch. If this is the case, it undermines your argument, particularly if the station only looked busy, and you decided to jump on the train when it came in instead of waiting to buy a ticket and catch the train you originally intended to use.

There's also a pretty frequent service at Barry, which doesn't really help you either, as it's not as if you would have had to wait an hour if you had not caught that particular service.

I'd probably only fight it if I had been queuing for ten minutes or longer. Any less than that and I'd pay the amount requested and chalk it up to experience.

 

[furlong]

Except this time the ticket machine and booking office were unusually busy.

You should be honest with yourself and quantify how much time you gave yourself and how long you actually waited before getting on the train. Do you think a court would consider the delay so unreasonable that it amounts somehow to there being "no facilities in working order"?

I have never been given any indication previously by the conductor on the train or at Queen Street that this is wrong.

Do you think a court would deem such a lack of indication on previous occasions amounts to a general authorisation to travel without a valid ticket in a similar way in future?

I was in the process of purchasing a ticket

Do you think a court would consider that the contract had been formed and the purchase agreed prior to the time at which the process was interrupted?

I'd like to fight this if possible

Perhaps respond making your mitigation clear, enclosing a cheque for the fare that is still due, and optionally a separate cheque for their administrative costs which you hope they will not cash?

 

[island]

I don't think you have a leg to stand on if this goes to court, so fighting it would be unwise. As you chose not to use the available ticketing facilities at Barry station, you committed the strict liability criminal offence of joining a train without a ticket.

Whilst the above-mentioned offence does not come with a criminal record, it is unlikely that any court hearing will lead to a total penalty of less than the £73.20 requested, even leaving aside the palaver of having to attend court. I would suggest paying and getting on with your life.

 

[BarryTraveller]

Hi

Many thanks for all your replies, I guessed as much. It has just really bothered me that they would treat a customer like this. I wasn't attempting to fare dodge or under-pay. I has definitely changed my attitude toward taking the train, and I'll avoid it as much as I can from now on.

I'm not too focused on the queue at the station being too long, it is just my train arrived early and I think it is human nature to not want to risk missing it. I have no idea if the queue would've lasted a minute or ten - there could've been a person in front who took ages to purchase a ticket.

I've seen the posters "don't risk it, buy a ticket", but never read them in any detail as it is never my intention to avoid buying a ticket!

The letter they sent me states that they are fining me 73.20 and that it includes the fare and the cost's incurred in its' recovery. If they had allowed me to buy the ticket I had requested at Queen Street, then they would have not incurred any costs in its recovery. Strange.

I personally think it is unreasonable to allow customers to behave in a certain way (as in purchasing tickets at the destination station), and then to fine you based on what amounts to a technicality, especially without this being mentioned by any of the staff.

I think I will send a letter to them requesting some mitigation, does anyone know if you send such a letter, do you still have to pay the fine within 21 days, or do you have to wait for a response from them?

Cheers all

 

[trentside]

I'm not too focused on the queue at the station being too long, it is just my train arrived early and I think it is human nature to not want to risk missing it. I have no idea if the queue would've lasted a minute or ten - there could've been a person in front who took ages to purchase a ticket.

Arriva Trains Wales passenger charter states that you should not have to wait more than five minutes in the peak, and three minutes off peak. How many people were in the queue for the ticket office and the machine? It may enable you to take an educated guess at how long the queue would have taken to get through.

I've seen the posters "don't risk it, buy a ticket", but never read them in any detail as it is never my intention to avoid buying a ticket!

I personally think it is unreasonable to allow customers to behave in a certain way (as in purchasing tickets at the destination station), and then to fine you based on what amounts to a technicality, especially without this being mentioned by any of the staff.

I've put these two quotes together - as the latter point of not being told by any staff is made irrelevant if they have posters informing you of the policy. Ignorance is no defence, sadly.

The letter they sent me states that they are fining me 73.20 and that it includes the fare and the cost's incurred in its' recovery. If they had allowed me to buy the ticket I had requested at Queen Street, then they would have not incurred any costs in its recovery. Strange.

Although it may not feel like it, the company are being fairly reasonable in this case, as if they wanted to they could have taken you straight to court - and left it to you to try and propose a settlement to avoid going to court.

I think I will send a letter to them requesting some mitigation, does anyone know if you send such a letter, do you still have to pay the fine within 21 days, or do you have to wait for a response from them?

I'd follow the advice from bb21 - and pay the charge, but "under protest" and make complaints regarding the queues at Barry, that would likely have caused you to miss the train. But equally, be aware of what Greenback has advised - as it will likely be something Arriva will take into account.

 

[Squaddie]

How many people were in the queue for the ticket office and the machine? It may enable you to take an educated guess at how long the queue would have taken to get through.

The OP has already back-tracked on the claims he originally made about the length of the queue at the station, saying that it could have taken as little as a minute to obtain a ticket.

I have every sympathy with the OP, as the UK's rail companies continue to send out mixed messages regarding the importance of purchasing tickets prior to travel, but this does seem to be a very simple case of a passenger choosing not to buy a ticket before boarding a train (despite having seen the posters warning of the consequences).

My advice to BarryTraveller is to just pay what ATW is demanding before the matter escalates. It's an open-and-shut case and you really don't have a leg to stand on.

 

[Greenback]

In view of the additional information regarding queuing times, my advice is now not to fight it, learn the lesson, put it behind you and don't get caught out again.

 

[trentside]

Now I've re-read the posting, I'd also agree that I don't think there'd be grounds to fight this based on queue times - as it sounds like the time could well have been under the passenger charter times.

 

[455driver]

The passenger charter says you should not have to wait more than 5 minutes, it does not say that you do not have to wait more than 5 minutes.

Its a subtle but important different and does not give you the right to join the train if you think it will take more than 5 minutes to queue to get a ticket.

 

[Llanigraham]

The passenger charter says you should not have to wait more than 5 minutes, it does not say that you do not have to wait more than 5 minutes.

Its a subtle but important different and does give you the right to join the train if you think it will take more than 5 minutes to queue to get a ticket.

Not sure you are correct with that last sentence.
I would actually read it the opposite way, and whatever the wait you still need to buy a ticket.

It could be written as:
"You should not have to wait more than 5 minutes but we realise that sometimes you might have to"

Under you reasoning it would have to read as:
"You WILL NOT have to wait more than 5 minutes.........."

 

[yorkie]

Looking at the information they provided relating to Byelaw 18, I understand now that the byelaw states you must obtain a ticket at the first opportunity. However I was making no attempt to fare dodge,....

Byelaw 18 makes no mention of "fare dodging". If there was evidence of intent to avoid payment, then they could threaten to prosecute you using the Regulation of Railways Act instead of the strict liability Byelaw 18, which does not require intent.

For more information on the legislation, see our Fares Guide.

 

[VisualAcid]

This situation is entirely down to ATW guards IMO, who give no impression to the layman that they are doing anything wrong even if you hop on at manned stations, some have told me not to bother because "no one will check". Make a concise and fair complaint and see what they say, although the high "costs" are rather annoying.

 

[455driver]

Not sure you are correct with that last sentence.
I would actually read it the opposite way, and whatever the wait you still need to buy a ticket.

It could be written as:
"You should not have to wait more than 5 minutes but we realise that sometimes you might have to"

Under you reasoning it would have to read as:
"You WILL NOT have to wait more than 5 minutes.........."

You are of course correct and I missed out the word NOT in the last paragraph (since corrected).

Sorry for any confusion!

 

[Flamingo]

This situation is entirely down to ATW guards IMO, who give no impression to the layman that they are doing anything wrong even if you hop on at manned stations, some have told me not to bother because "no one will check". Make a concise and fair complaint and see what they say, although the high "costs" are rather annoying.

I always point out to passengers (in South Wales and elsewhere) when selling them tickets that they need to buy before boarding. The level of indignation that one gets between Swansea and Cardiff when this is mentioned is unbelievable. I'm frequently accused of "being too ***** lazy to do the job and sell them".

 

[tony6499]

I always point out to passengers (in South Wales and elsewhere) when selling them tickets that they need to buy before boarding. The level of indignation that one gets between Swansea and Cardiff when this is mentioned is unbelievable. I'm frequently accused of "being too ***** lazy to do the job and sell them".

What about the commission ? Some guards have always encouraged buying from them so they can maximise their own earnings via commission

 

[Flamingo]

What about the commission ? Some guards have always encouraged buying from them so they can maximise their own earnings via commission

To be honest, in my experience, these are in a minority. They are there, but not as many as some on here would have you believe. Especially in South Wales, where the majority of fares are not paticularly high.

 

[trentside]

Although I don't work in the area, I'm another guard who always tries to remind people to buy before boarding where facilities exist. Like Flamingo, I'm surprised at the indignation one can be met with for a simple reminder - even when actually fulfilling the passengers request.

 

[LateThanNever]

Hi

I've seen the posters "don't risk it, buy a ticket", but never read them in any detail as it is never my intention to avoid buying a ticket!
Cheers all

If indeed that is what the posters say, then that is exactly what you were doing - just at the end of the journey rather than the beginning.
This timing factor, it is argued, you were supposed to know. But how? If this knowledge were so pervasive then they wouldn't need to put up posters in the first place. In having to publicise the law the implication is that there is (at least some) ignorance. Even my MP cannot list all the laws passed on his watch so how is an MP's constituent supposed to have a better knowledge?
The train company's enforcers know they hold all the cards but I think the authors of the station poster and their own staff could be accused of recklessness in enforcement. Some of their enforcing staff are working by the letter of the law. Whereas the generality of their staff members seem generally untroubled by it.

 

[BarryTraveller]

To be clear to Squaddie, I was not backtracking. All I was saying is that I cannot be exact over how long a queue will take. I have been stuck behind a single person buying a long distance ticket and it took nearly ten minutes, and have on other occasions, been in a queue of three or four, all paying cash and moved through very quickly. On that day, the queue appeared longer than in previous my experience - coupled with that, my train pulled up and in my experience I had previously had no problem buying a ticket further along my journey.

To Yorkie - I wasn't implying that Byelaw 18 mentions fare dodging. It just seems that fare dodging or underpayment would be a loss for ATW, whereas what I was doing would incur no additional cost for them, so it does not seem worthwhile them enforcing this byelaw in this case.

To Flamigo and Trentside - good on you for doing this. No guard/conductor has ever said this to me. I must say however, that the level of indignation I have seen some of the guards/conductors exhibit is perhaps equal to what you have experienced from your customers.

To LateThanNever - I imagine the posters have more text outlining the law and potential penalties, therefore they are covered. They would also argue that ignorance is not an excuse for breaking the law. As my intention is to always buy a ticket, I haven't read the posters, my fault I guess.

I hate the fact that I just have to accept this situation. I want to first check with them whether sending a letter of mitigation will affect my ability to pay the fine if they do not accept the details in my letter. If so, I will just pay the fine. If not I will send them a cheque for the fare and my letter outlining the situation and see what comes back.

If I end up having to pay the fine, I think I'll write a letter of compliant and cc some local papers and MP. I do not believe that this is the correct way to treat customers, especially when running such a vital service. If you are interested I will update you with my progress.

 

[Chouette]

This situation is entirely down to ATW guards IMO, who give no impression to the layman that they are doing anything wrong even if you hop on at manned stations, some have told me not to bother because "no one will check". Make a concise and fair complaint and see what they say, although the high "costs" are rather annoying.

The other way round, but I've occasionally walked past a manned ticket office after getting off the train because it's usually shut when I travel and I simply forgot it would be open. I've had a couple of arguments with ATW guards over trying to get them to sell me a return on my way back home because, for some reason, they don't appear to think I need to pay for the half of the journey I've already done.

Actual quote when I queried why I'd got a single when I asked for a return "Well you're not coming back, are you?"

 

[RPI]

I do think ATW, although technically correct, are being a little naughty in effectively avoiding the correct implementation of a Penalty Fares scheme by over using byelaw 18, by doing so ATW are not having to display "clear" Warning signs at entrances and around stations and giving the passenger an opportunity to an independent appeal.

 

[furlong]

I do think ATW, although technically correct, are being a little naughty in effectively avoiding the correct implementation of a Penalty Fares scheme by over using byelaw 18,

Absolutely - which is why I think people should pursue some of these cases through their M.P.s and there should be a little review of the law in this area in light of the way it is being used.

 

[Clip]

I do think ATW, although technically correct, are being a little naughty in effectively avoiding the correct implementation of a Penalty Fares scheme by over using byelaw 18, by doing so ATW are not having to display "clear" Warning signs at entrances and around stations and giving the passenger an opportunity to an independent appeal.

But other posters have said that they do have posters up at all stations and the OP themselves have admitted to seeing the poster but not reading it properly.

So, why are ATW at fault here if someone cant read a poster properly to understand it?

 

[Chouette]

But other posters have said that they do have posters up at all stations and the OP themselves have admitted to seeing the poster but not reading it properly.

So, why are ATW at fault here if someone cant read a poster properly to understand it?

They definitely don't have posters at all the stations - there are none at mine, and I can't recall seeing any this far up the valley. I have seen them on the Sprinters and at Queen Street.

(The "don't be a mug" one amuses me - if I were a mug, I'd have more of a handle on things and would have prepurchased my ticket )

 

[BarryTraveller]

But other posters have said that they do have posters up at all stations and the OP themselves have admitted to seeing the poster but not reading it properly.

So, why are ATW at fault here if someone cant read a poster properly to understand it?

I can read properly, I don't take the time to read every poster I come across, especially if I believe it is not relevant to me. I am not risking it if I'm intending on buying a ticket!

 

[Fare-Cop]

I have saved these from another source and in case it helps anyone, these two documents may assist.

One is the information displayed on ATW timetables and trains since 2011 and the other is a press release made by the company at the time these were first posted.

 

[Flamingo]

I do think ATW, although technically correct, are being a little naughty in effectively avoiding the correct implementation of a Penalty Fares scheme by over using byelaw 18, by doing so ATW are not having to display "clear" Warning signs at entrances and around stations and giving the passenger an opportunity to an independent appeal.

They are not operating a scheme like Northern seem to be doing, where there appears to be an "automatic" £80 charge for not taking a Bylaw 18 prosecution through the courts.

They have contractors who seem to mainly operate at the main stations who intervene when passengers arrive without tickets, and will question passengers further to establish why they do not have a ticket (and where they actually travelled from).

As you know, a PF scheme also has requirements in terms of facilities to purchase, and a lot of the smaller stops would not be suitable for TVM's, in no small part due to the vandalism that these machines would invariably attract.

I have heard that ATW have looked into making a PF zone - what problems they would run into I don't know.

From personal experience, I would say that the Revenue Teams they employ would really come under the heading of minimal. The numbers we are getting on here posting would be more indicative of how rife ticketless travel / pay when challenged is in South Wales, especially after barriers are opened/ barrier staff gone off duty. The fact that a lot of the out-of-hours trains are not provided by ATW has a direct impact on ATW not viewing ticketless travel out of hours (and resultant anti-social behaviour etc) as their problem.

 

[LateThanNever]

To LateThanNever - I imagine the posters have more text outlining the law and potential penalties, therefore they are covered. They would also argue that ignorance is not an excuse for breaking the law. As my intention is to always buy a ticket, I haven't read the posters, my fault I guess.

I hate the fact that I just have to accept this situation. I want to first check with them whether sending a letter of mitigation will affect my ability to pay the fine if they do not accept the details in my letter. If so, I will just pay the fine. If not I will send them a cheque for the fare and my letter outlining the situation and see what comes back.

If I end up having to pay the fine, I think I'll write a letter of compliant and cc some local papers and MP. I do not believe that this is the correct way to treat customers, especially when running such a vital service. If you are interested I will update you with my progress.

Would only say again that the mere fact that posters have to be put up implies - of itself - that ignorance is rife among passengers. What is the purpose of nicking you whilst you were queuing up to pay? Brownie points for the contractor probably.
Definitely letter to the MP and Arriva Chief Executive at their real head office (and not the head office of ATW) I'd suggest.