Notice of Prosecution

[bubblelife]

Hi, just looking for a bit of advice and information. I travelled from Whitchurch, Shropshire to Crewe, and left the station at Crewe without having a ticket.
Whitchurch is unmanned, and having only cash that day, I couldn't buy from the machine, missed the conductor on the train, and didn't want to wait in the massive queue at crewe to purchase a ticket there. I thought as I'm going home this way I'll get the return ticket before i get on the home train. I have given this information in slightly more detail for my statement.

First point - they have given me a statement of facts that says the charges I face are:
1. Did travel upon the railway and failed to obtain a ticket or pay the fare due before travelling on a train.
2. Did travel, or attempt to travel upon the railway without having previously paid the fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof.

the statement below that reads exactly:

The defendant travelled from Whitchurch to Crewe on 16/10/2014 without a valid rail ticket. Under caution from an inspector at 08.40, the defendant admitted to travelling without a valid ticket when full pre purchase facilities were available to her.
The fare avoided is £6.60. There is an application for compensation of £6.60 and a contribution of £125 (including VAT) towards the prosecution costs.

I was going to plead guilty and get it over with, but can I dispute the first point, as i didn't have any plastic on me that day and couldn't use the machine before travelling?

Secondly - if I plead guilty do i just have to pay the £6.60 and £125 and that's it? If I plead not guilty and get convicted will i have to pay more?

Thirdly, I'm in my final year of a QS degree, and as far as I am aware can't join the RICS with a Criminal record - does this count as mitigating?

Lastly, they have spelt my first name incorrectly on all the prosecution documents, I don't suppose it's like a warrant and is now invalid? hopefully?

Thanks!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

More things that I forgot to ask...

It says I can get in touch with the Clerk of the Court for more information, but I can't find any contact details for them. Can i just phone the court and ask for them?

Is it worth consulting a solicitor, and taking one to court or should I just let them have a statement and prosecute without me there? I could do without taking the time off work really. I do only work part time!!

Thank you

 

[najaB]

...can I dispute the first point, as i didn't have any plastic on me that day and couldn't use the machine before travelling?

Yes you can dispute it, but it won't make any difference at all. Your actions up to the point you attempted to leave the station at Crewe aren't what got you into trouble - the only thing that matters is that you tried to leave without paying your fare. It doesn't matter why you did it (in other words it doesn't matter how long the queue was), it only matters what you did as intent is proved by actions.

Secondly - if I plead guilty do i just have to pay the £6.60 and £125 and that's it? If I plead not guilty and get convicted will i have to pay more?

Yes. If you pay the outstanding fare and the costs, that will settle the matter. If it goes to court, in all likelihood the amount you will have to pay will be higher (it will be the fare, a fine and much higher costs).

Thirdly, I'm in my final year of a QS degree, and as far as I am aware can't join the RICS with a Criminal record - does this count as mitigating?

If you pay the settlement, it won't leave a criminal record. If you don't pay it and are convicted, then it will. And the fact that your planned career depends on a clean record doesn't excuse you from liability for your actions. If you were to take that argument to the absurd, a medical student could kill someone and then say "Don't prosecute me, it will ruin my career."

Lastly, they have spelt my first name incorrectly on all the prosecution documents, I don't suppose it's like a warrant and is now invalid? hopefully?

Doesn't make a difference. I'm sure you will find it spelled correctly on the summons, and even if it wasn't the prosecutor could correct it on the day.

My advice (feel free to ignore it if you want) is to pay the £131.60 and consider it a bargain compared to the cost and consequences of a prosecution.

Edit: Could you clarify as I may have been to quick in posting - is it a summons, or notice of intent to prosecute?

 

[DaleCooper]

I can't give you legal advice but I have a question. If you were unwilling to queue for a ticket in the morning what would you have done if there was a similar queue in the evening, with your train about to depart?

 

[Llanigraham]

Hi, just looking for a bit of advice and information. I travelled from Whitchurch, Shropshire to Crewe, and left the station at Crewe without having a ticket.
Whitchurch is unmanned, and having only cash that day, I couldn't buy from the machine, missed the conductor on the train, and didn't want to wait in the massive queue at crewe to purchase a ticket there. I thought as I'm going home this way I'll get the return ticket before i get on the home train. I have given this information in slightly more detail for my statement.

First point - they have given me a statement of facts that says the charges I face are:
1. Did travel upon the railway and failed to obtain a ticket or pay the fare due before travelling on a train.
2. Did travel, or attempt to travel upon the railway without having previously paid the fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof.

the statement below that reads exactly:

The defendant travelled from Whitchurch to Crewe on 16/10/2014 without a valid rail ticket. Under caution from an inspector at 08.40, the defendant admitted to travelling without a valid ticket when full pre purchase facilities were available to her.
The fare avoided is £6.60. There is an application for compensation of £6.60 and a contribution of £125 (including VAT) towards the prosecution costs.

I was going to plead guilty and get it over with, but can I dispute the first point, as i didn't have any plastic on me that day and couldn't use the machine before travelling?

Secondly - if I plead guilty do i just have to pay the £6.60 and £125 and that's it? If I plead not guilty and get convicted will i have to pay more?

Thirdly, I'm in my final year of a QS degree, and as far as I am aware can't join the RICS with a Criminal record - does this count as mitigating?

Lastly, they have spelt my first name incorrectly on all the prosecution documents, I don't suppose it's like a warrant and is now invalid? hopefully?

Thanks!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

More things that I forgot to ask...

It says I can get in touch with the Clerk of the Court for more information, but I can't find any contact details for them. Can i just phone the court and ask for them?

Is it worth consulting a solicitor, and taking one to court or should I just let them have a statement and prosecute without me there? I could do without taking the time off work really. I do only work part time!!

Thank you

There being a queue and not wanting to wait is not an excuse. If anything it shows you were willing to NOT pay, especially as you could have paid at Crewe before you left the station.

Pay up and learn your lesson!

 

[scott118]

pay the £131.60 and consider it a bargain, compared to the cost and consequences of a prosecution.

 

[DaleCooper]

another question bubblelife, knowing that the TVM only accepted cards why carry only cash and just how much effort did you make to find the guard?

 

[Greenback]

How did you miss the conductor on the train?

 

[najaB]

another question bubblelifeknowing that the TVM only accepted cards why carry only cash and just how much effort did you make to find the guard?

How did you miss the conductor on the train?

Neither of these points are really relevant - as up until the point that bubblelife tried to leave the station they hadn't broken any laws. Even if they had walked the entire length of the train and couldn't find the guard, it was attempting to leave the station that has caused all this bother.

 

[DaleCooper]

How did you miss the conductor on the train?

Would I be correct in guessing that this would be a train of just a couple of coaches?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Neither of these points are really relevant - as up until the point that bubblelife tried to leave the station they hadn't broken any laws. Even if they had walked the entire length of the train and couldn't find the guard, it was attempting to leave the station that has caused all this bother.

I'm no expert but from what I read on this forum the offence is committed when missing the first opportunity to pay i.e. the guard.

 

[221129]

Would I be correct in guessing that this would be a train of just a couple of coaches?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I'm no expert but from what I read on this forum the offence is committed when missing the first opportunity to pay i.e. the guard.

but they don't have to actively look for the guard. A Bylaw offence is only complete if the guard comes around and the OP ignored them. (Also evidence for a RoRA offence.)

 

[DaleCooper]

but they don't have to actively look for the guard. A Bylaw offence is only complete if the guard comes around and the OP ignored them. (Also evidence for a RoRA offence.)

I stand corrected, thank you.

 

[najaB]

I'm no expert but from what I read on this forum the offence is committed when missing the first opportunity to pay i.e. the guard.

I'm not claiming to be an expert either, but if bubblelife didn't see the guard, then their first opportunity to pay was on arrival at Crewe. I believe it's been established that the passenger isn't obliged to search out the guard, but if the guard is making their way through the train, the passenger should attempt to purchase a ticket.

Edit: Cross posted with ollieb's contribution.

 

[Greenback]

Neither of these points are really relevant - as up until the point that bubblelife tried to leave the station they hadn't broken any laws. Even if they had walked the entire length of the train and couldn't find the guard, it was attempting to leave the station that has caused all this bother.

I agree, but I'm interested in knowing why that particular wording has been used. After all, while bubblelife was under no obligation to seek the guard out, if she had noticed the guard passing through and bought a ticket with cash at that point, she would not have had to queue at Crewe and could have exited the station with no problem.

It might be worth remembering next time that the OP, or anyone reading this thread is in a similar situation, that even though there's no need to find the guard, it's worth keeping a good eye out for them so as to avoid the potential for delay and trouble later on.

Of course, it's quite possible that the guard could not get through the train, or was delayed in another coach, but I think it's worth mentioning and seeking clarification as to exactly what happened.

 

[DaleCooper]

I agree, but I'm interested in knowing why that particular wording has been used. After all, while bubblelife was under no obligation to seek the guard out, if she had noticed the guard passing through and bought a ticket with cash at that point, she would not have had to queue at Crewe and could have exited the station with no problem.

It might be worth remembering next time that the OP, or anyone reading this thread is in a similar situation, that even though there's no need to find the guard, it's worth keeping a good eye out for them so as to avoid the potential for delay and trouble later on.

Of course, it's quite possible that the guard could not get through the train, or was delayed in another coach, but I think it's worth mentioning and seeking clarification as to exactly what happened.

This what I was getting at with my questions.

 

[najaB]

I agree, but I'm interested in knowing why that particular wording has been used. After all, while bubblelife was under no obligation to seek the guard out, if she had noticed the guard passing through and bought a ticket with cash at that point, she would not have had to queue at Crewe and could have exited the station with no problem.

Okay, understood. I just didn't want the OP to maybe think that was a possible get out clause. FWIW, I read 'missed the conductor' as 'I was distracted and didn't keep an eye out for the guard'.

 

[bubblelife]

I can't give you legal advice but I have a question. If you were unwilling to queue for a ticket in the morning what would you have done if there was a similar queue in the evening, with your train about to depart?

We have an hourly service at the best of times. I have a 25 minute walk to work, which means i only just get in in time if i leave the station immediately. When the train is late, I am late.
The earlier train would get me in one hour earlier - before my office actually opens.
At home time I have a 20-30 minute wait for the train, plus I had retrieved my card from my desk, so could easily use the machine, therefore queuing at home time is not a problem.

 

[DaleCooper]

It appears the OP was really unlucky getting stopped as otherwise they could have just bought a single for the journey home for a saving of £1.70.

 

[bubblelife]

pay the £131.60 and consider it a bargain, compared to the cost and consequences of a prosecution.

Perhaps you know something I don't? - I can't see any option of paying and leaving it at that. I have a court date so from the information in the 20 or so sheets of paper they sent me seems to indicate that the the court case will go ahead unless i plead not guilty and demand witnesses to attend. Not being a career criminal, i'm not really sure how this all works.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Secondly - if I plead guilty do i just have to pay the £6.60 and £125 and that's it?

No. There will also be a fine levied by the Court, plus a small 'Victim Surcharge'.

If I plead not guilty and get convicted will i have to pay more?

The costs will almost definitely increase, and the calculation of the Fine will no longer include a discount for early admission of guilt.

It says I can get in touch with the Clerk of the Court for more information, but I can't find any contact details for them. Can i just phone the court and ask for them?

Yes. There will almost definitely be more than one Clerk, so really you will just be asking to speak to one of the Clerks' Office staff, who can look up your case's reference number for you.

My advice (feel free to ignore it if you want) is to pay the £131.60 and consider it a bargain compared to the cost and consequences of a prosecution.

My reading of bubblelife's post doesn't seem to show that as an option.

 

[bubblelife]

No. There will also be a fine levied by the Court, plus a small 'Victim Surcharge'. The costs will almost definitely increase, and the calculation of the Fine will no longer include a discount for early admission of guilt.

Yes. There will almost definitely be more than one Clerk, so really you will just be asking to speak to one of the Clerks' Office staff, who can look up your case's reference number for you.

My reading of bubblelife's post doesn't seem to show that as an option.

Thanks Dave, that's really helpful :cry:

 

[martinsh]

If you were unwilling to queue for a ticket in the morning what would you have done if there was a similar queue in the evening, with your train about to depart?

Well I travel from Crewe 3-4 times per week, and the only time there is anyone checking is when there is a revenue block on, and it is impossible to leave the station except by using some very dubious means.

Nor is there ever a "massive queue to buy tickets" unless there is a revenue block, with someone taking fares with a portable machine.

And if they were referring to the normal ticket office, that would be beyond any block.

Furthermore I think there is a ticket machine at Crewe which takes cash.

The reference to the evening is almost certainly because these blocks don't usually last all day, and so buying a ticket could be avoided unless asked by the guard on the train. [ Although on the Crewe - Shrewsbury line they almost always come round straight after leaving Crewe ]

I notice that the OP appears to make this journey regularly, but doesn't claim "I normally buy a ticket and have used tickets to prove it"...

I'm afraid I have very little sympathy for the OP.

 

[GadgetMan]

How convenient, "I didn't have a card in the morning...". Yet come evening, "I now have a card as I retrieved it from work."

How many people leave there bank cards at work rather than on their person or at home.

Perhaps theres a genuine reason why the OP leaves their payment cards at work.

 

[najaB]

How convenient, "I didn't have a card in the morning...". Yet come evening, "I now have a card as I retrieved it from work."

How many people leave there bank cards at work rather than on their person or at home.

Perhaps theres a genuine reason why the OP leaves their payment cards at work.

Not to get in the way of a good roasting, but the OP did say:

Hi, just looking for a bit of advice and information. I travelled from Whitchurch, Shropshire to Crewe, and left the station at Crewe without having a ticket.
Whitchurch is unmanned, and having only cash that day...

Which doesn't require them to keep their payment cards at work.

 

[GadgetMan]

Not to get in the way of a good roasting, but the OP did say:
Which doesn't require them to keep their payment cards at work.

Here you go

At home time I have a 20-30 minute wait for the train, plus I had retrieved my card from my desk, so could easily use the machine, therefore queuing at home time is not a problem.

 

[najaB]

I know what they posted, I'm just saying that even if they didn't retrieve their card the story still makes sense. Well, at least the no "no card but intend to buy in the evening" part.

 

[DaleCooper]

Well I travel from Crewe 3-4 times per week, and the only time there is anyone checking is when there is a revenue block on, and it is impossible to leave the station except by using some very dubious means.

Nor is there ever a "massive queue to buy tickets" unless there is a revenue block, with someone taking fares with a portable machine.

And if they were referring to the normal ticket office, that would be beyond any block.

Furthermore I think there is a ticket machine at Crewe which takes cash.

The reference to the evening is almost certainly because these blocks don't usually last all day, and so buying a ticket could be avoided unless asked by the guard on the train. [ Although on the Crewe - Shrewsbury line they almost always come round straight after leaving Crewe ]

I notice that the OP appears to make this journey regularly, but doesn't claim "I normally buy a ticket and have used tickets to prove it"...

I'm afraid I have very little sympathy for the OP.

How convenient, "I didn't have a card in the morning...". Yet come evening, "I now have a card as I retrieved it from work."

How many people leave there bank cards at work rather than on their person or at home.

Perhaps theres a genuine reason why the OP leaves their payment cards at work.

I was beginning to think I was the only cynic on here.

A bit of advice for the OP, if this should happen again queue for a ticket and then get a taxi to work, unless Crewe taxis are very expensive that should cost less than £125.

 

[najaB]

I was beginning to think I was the only cynic on here.

Oh, you are not, but we can only work with the facts presented rather than the facts suspected.

 

[Greenback]

Okay, understood. I just didn't want the OP to maybe think that was a possible get out clause. FWIW, I read 'missed the conductor' as 'I was distracted and didn't keep an eye out for the guard'.

That was my interpretation too, but I wanted to give the OP a chance to clarify or expand on their comments.

There are other interpretations, too, such as I deliberately avoided the guard and didn't make myself known as needing a ticket as they walked through. Or, that the guard didn't get to the OP at all.

The actions of the OP could be considered consistent with both an innocent member of the travelling public and also someone who was trying to avoid paying or being asked to pay for a ticket. That is, right up to the moment they tried to leave the station at Crewe, anyway.

At that point any benefit of the doubt that may have been given by the decision maker at the TOC disappeared.

I'm afraid, bubblelife, that you don't have much in the way of mitigation in my view.

 

[sarahj]

as an aside, when checking trains for tickets you find folks grouped into these:


A: Folks who really want to buy a ticket will come up to you.*
B. Folks who ask you as you pass though without being prompted.*
C: folks who buy when prompted.
D: Folks who will buy, but when they board the train, they head furthest away from where you are in the hope that they dont have to.
E: Folks that do the ticket dance, then pay up
F: Folks that do the dance, but wont pay.
G: Folks that wont pay at all. Either get a got no money,F@#k off, or silence, but smirk.

Of course there is the AA group. Folks that gave themselves time and bought before they got on.

As one lot said to me, when i asked them, why they had not bought at the station before they boarded, their reply was, 'well why do you carry a machine'. My reply, 'this is for passengers who have either boarded at a station without a machine, or ticket office, those who have difficult buy a ticket from a machine, or need something they were unable to find on a machine. Two singles by young men from Havant to Chichester, does not come under that.' (they were trying to pay with a PAYG debit/credit card.)

* many of these are going to a station that is/might be gated, so know they need one anyway.

Note: in the last five days I have just worked out I've been to Lancing and Angmering 20 times, so have heard it all.

 

[bubblelife]

Well I travel from Crewe 3-4 times per week, and the only time there is anyone checking is when there is a revenue block on, and it is impossible to leave the station except by using some very dubious means.

Nor is there ever a "massive queue to buy tickets" unless there is a revenue block, with someone taking fares with a portable machine.

And if they were referring to the normal ticket office, that would be beyond any block.

Furthermore I think there is a ticket machine at Crewe which takes cash.

The reference to the evening is almost certainly because these blocks don't usually last all day, and so buying a ticket could be avoided unless asked by the guard on the train. [ Although on the Crewe - Shrewsbury line they almost always come round straight after leaving Crewe ]

I notice that the OP appears to make this journey regularly, but doesn't claim "I normally buy a ticket and have used tickets to prove it"...

I'm afraid I have very little sympathy for the OP.

In general I have no reason to respond to many of the comments in this feed, as I was not looking for sympathy or your understanding, just some advice - you have the facts needed to answer my questions.

However you got on my nerves against my better judgement. I'd like to know more about the dubious means of leaving the station, please tell us more! I walked out the front door past the massive queue at the ticket office as previously stated. There were no men taking payment or blocks in the foyer.

I work 3 days a week, sometimes I bike it, I don't keep wads of tickets, why would you?