Nottingham 'Bus War'

[Robertj21a]

Their areas of work in recent years:

National express (once a sizeable operation): all contracts lost

Tuxford depot contracted work: all lost

Durham depot services: depot closed

Derbyshire CC contracts: Matlock area services lost to Littles, another lost to G & J Holmes

Nottinghamshire CC contracts: all lost

Uni hopper contracts: lost

Commercial services: All (bar the Y10) copy incumbent operator routes. Y5 and Y36 will no doubt have been affected by the tram, probably the Y4 too, although that started after phase 2 opened. Y81/82, Y100, Y29 and Citylink have all bit the dust.

Meanwhile, the 100% shareholder lives with his family in Australia having acquired a successful business there. He has to frequently fly back to the UK or talk over Skype etc in order to run his business. The company is rumoured to be for sale but there will surely come a point when it's not worth keeping the business going if it's not making money. 2016 could be an interesting year for the business.

I see the Y5 and Y36 with quite good loads much of the time but those 2 aren't going to be enough to keep the whole operation afloat. The National Express work used to bring in significant, regular, income but my understanding is that their poor performance lost them that work.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

I see reasonable loadings on the Y1 & Y3 as well.
I would also argue that some routes aren't exact copies. The Y3 extension to Cotmanhay led to a copy action by Trent. The Y1 extension to Eastwood is popular - and I wish Trent would join the H1 & R1 up in retaliation save me changing buses in Heanor!!
(Oh and PS the Y10 WAS a copy of the incumbent - forced Doyles's 101-103 off of the road).

 

[tbone]

(Oh and PS the Y10 WAS a copy of the incumbent - forced Doyles's 101-103 off of the road).

Indeed. A lot of the Derbyshire Contracts they operate were won off (read undercut) Doyles and look what happened to them! A lot of other routes were won off operators who ran the services with far less dead mileage- all the Ashbourne services spring to mind.

You see the odd busy bus on Y1/3/5/28/36 but you also see quite a lot of empty ones running around. Theres also a fair bit of dead mileage involved there, only the Y1 and Y3 start/finish in Heanor.

The Eastwood journeys are currently unique in offering a fast bus from Eastwood to Derby which Trent Barton don't provide with the current offering but there are five buses (4 direct) between Heanor and Eastwood, I'm not sure how many travel through as Nottingham is probably a more popular destination with a bus every ten minutes.

The Ripley journey is only hourly and duplicates the H1 as far as Codnor, the few remaining settlements are close enough to Ripley and its 6 (4 fast) buses to Derby.

Cotmanhay is similar to Eastwood, 6 buses an hour to Ilkeston on the Two with buses through to Nottingham. It clearly must have scared Trent to some extent though, given that they've also started running through.

Bizarrely, one of the busiest yourbus routes I've seen is the 59, which is a hybrid of the 59, previously run by (you've guessed it) Doyles and Felix before that, and the Notts and Derby route to Shipley View. It was initially allocated a Streetlie DF, it now carries a fair amount in a Citaro.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

I think passenger numbers are very fluid for all operators. Last Monday 14th while waiting for a late H1 in Derby at 4.35p.m. (two Y1 left together carrying c30 people) a 59 passed us outbound with 3 on board. This 10 days before Christmas is rather poor and reflects the usage that I also see at the Ilkeston end. But yet again it boils down to particular sections & particular journeys being busy.

 

[Asriel]

I wonder how much of an impact the Yourbus services have had on Trents bottom line over the past couple of years?

I've noticed the average age of their buses seems to be slipping ever older. The Skylink and Indigo are both looking rather tired. The skylink must be one of their busiest routes yet the buses are 11-12 years old with threadbare original seating! You wouldnt have seen that back in the day.

 

[tbone]

I wonder how much of an impact the Yourbus services have had on Trents bottom line over the past couple of years?

I've noticed the average age of their buses seems to be slipping ever older. The Skylink and Indigo are both looking rather tired. The skylink must be one of their busiest routes yet the buses are 11-12 years old with threadbare original seating! You wouldnt have seen that back in the day.

Very little I'd imagine, they're only competing with a small number of services which remain busy from what I see. In fact, H1 now runs more frequently and Zoom, launched in the wake of Y5, carries very healthy loads.

There have been hints from the social media teams that indigo is due some new features in the new year. The Skylink buses were all given new seat fabric before going onto the route, although I accept they could do with an update.

I think the issue with new buses is the state of the market. The Volvos and Acanias, particularly when refurbished, are just as good, if not better than the current offer. That being said, significant investment on the Two and Red Arrow has take place this year.

 

[nottinghamcity]

I think the Nottingham end of the routes seem to refect the Derbyshire loadings. Some good loadings, but insubstantial averages I would guess. Y5 is quite hit-and miss. Y36 seems to have lost its advantage of having the quicker route during the tram works took a fair chunk of the route's patronage. Now struggling at least between Chilwell and Beeston, but not greatly surprising considering it is 15 bph plus 6 trams!

 

[MCR247]

I wonder how much of an impact the Yourbus services have had on Trents bottom line over the past couple of years?

I've noticed the average age of their buses seems to be slipping ever older. The Skylink and Indigo are both looking rather tired. The skylink must be one of their busiest routes yet the buses are 11-12 years old with threadbare original seating! You wouldnt have seen that back in the day.

Tbf I think the fact that this has happened at the same time as YourBus appearing is a coincidence. Without wanting to repeating tbone, the differences between the Wrights and what they were replacing (indirectly through cascades in some cases) were bigger than what the difference would be between a refurbished 10 year and a brand new Wright (for most passengers anyway). So I think TB are at a stage where loads more new buses would just push out Solars that aren't ready to go to the graveyard Notts & Derby. And whilst some passsengers might not realise it, cascaded buses might be better than brand new ones as if your route was bought Wrights during the 'boom' period you may only get a brand new midibus. If I lived on the R1 route I think I'd have preferred refreshed Volvos or something personally...

[/QUOTE]

 

[Pigalle]

I wonder how much of an impact the Yourbus services have had on Trents bottom line over the past couple of years?

I suspect more than we realise. The one thing that resulted from Yourbus taking on the Red Arrow was the introduction of the trentbartonland Saver and while I doubt they are large numbers in use a knock on effect was the introduction of weekly and four weekly caps on mango. In my case, I believe I was paying £8 a day for a Derby Estates day transfer to go to Nottingham prior to Yourbus's arrival. Over the course of a week that equates to £40. Now the weekly cap on mango is £30 and a saver works out at even less in some cases. That's a significant reduction in income which is probably replicated across a large number of different journeys apart from mine.

 

[trentside]

Their areas of work in recent years:

Tuxford depot contracted work: all lost

Didn't they actually just choose to terminate their contracts at Tuxford and close the depot, rather than losing the contracts?

 

[winston270twm]

Didn't they actually just choose to terminate their contracts at Tuxford and close the depot, rather than losing the contracts?

I believe that was the case.

Not 100% sure, but Yourbus may have also chosen to close Durham depot & exit the NX coach services that ran out of that depot. However, they did loose all the NX coach work from Heanor & Bradford depot

 

[Silver Lady]

I believe that was the case.

Not 100% sure, but Yourbus may have also chosen to close Durham depot & exit the NX coach services that ran out of that depot. However, they did loose all the NX coach work from Heanor & Bradford depot

Yes Yourbus chose to terminate their NCC contracts at Tuxford as the council couldn't honour the pre agreed annual contract price rise.

The Durham Depot was closed because of ongoing problems with Unite the Union.

 

[tbone]

Yourbus have a date with the traffic commissioner on the 13th January. Not the start to the year they were perhaps hoping for!

 

[pjnathanail]

Yourbus have a date with the traffic commissioner on the 13th January. Not the start to the year they were perhaps hoping for!

Which Notices and Proceedings is that in? I can't seem to find it.

 

[howittpie]

Which Notices and Proceedings is that in? I can't seem to find it.

Just had a look it is in NP2217 for the North East Of England. Can't do a link as on my mobile.

 

[nottinghamcity]

Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjnathanail View Post
Which Notices and Proceedings is that in? I can't seem to find it.
Just had a look it is in NP2217

Any ideas what the considerations mean?

Link here https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/488756/np-2217-25-december-2015.pdf

 

[tbone]

Any ideas what the considerations mean?

Link here https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/488756/np-2217-25-december-2015.pdf

Both of those sections relate to the power to revoke licenses. Worse case scenario, indeed a previous enquiry had similar wording in notices and proceedings beforehand.

 

[WillPS]

I saw a Notts & Derby liveried Paladin on the A50 yesterday (heading away from East Midlands Airport) with Tesco Free Bus on its destination blind.

Have they been drafted back in to service again, or was it on its way to Valhalla?

 

[Silver Lady]

Both of those sections relate to the power to revoke licenses. Worse case scenario, indeed a previous enquiry had similar wording in notices and proceedings beforehand.

You love it don't you Oneman?, you've posted this on several different forums and your Trent Barton fanboy page on Facebook.

You should think about the innocent people who work there who could loose their jobs, not gloat about it.

 

[Robertj21a]

You love it don't you Oneman?, you've posted this on several different forums and your Trent Barton fanboy page on Facebook.

You should think about the innocent people who work there who could loose their jobs, not gloat about it.

Personally speaking, I wouldn't want to work for any company that flouted the laws.

 

[Ginga]

This made me laugh...

http://www.thetram.net/tram-and-tax...dTaxiPartnershipToOfferCustomersDiscountFares

That's the former Premiere Travel Marketing Manager with the former "Business Development Manager ". Who when he left Premiere Travel claimed he was "Stabbed in the back".

In other news Skills/Sliverdale have 14 new coaches coming for National Express.

 

[tbone]

The Transport Act [1985] s.28

28 Power to disqualify PSV operators.

(1)Where the traffic commissioner for any traffic area revokes a PSV operator’s licence, he may order the former holder to be disqualified, indefinitely or for such period as he thinks fit, from holding or obtaining a PSV operator’s licence.

The Public Passenger Vehicles Act [1981] s.17

17 Revocation, suspension etc. of licences.

(1)The traffic [commissioner] by whom a standard licence was granted shall revoke the licence if it appears to [him] at any time that the holder no longer satisfies the requirement to be of good repute, the requirement to be of appropriate financial standing or the requirement as to professional competence.

The above sections are what's referred to. I'm not sure, Silverlady, as to how I've done anything other than answer the question in the post that you've quoted there? I've also answered the question in a similar manner where it has been asked elswhere on other forums and on Facebook. Your personal attack seems a little unjustified.

If an operator were to lose their license (which I've qualified in another post is not the only, or indeed likely course of action) then staff and passengers are affected in a big way and I would never wish for that. However, such hearings are not called at the drop of a hat and tend to come with good reason. Non-compliance with the law places those very same staff and passengers in harm's way and that can't be allowed to happen.

 

[Robertj21a]

.
Just to emphasise the comment that 'such hearings are not called at the drop of a hat', there are still a few parts of the UK where this sort of action is incredibly slow and poor performance by an operator is allowed to continue for far too long (imho).
The fact that it has been taken this far, with a significant operator, suggests that there are some hard facts available to the investigating authorities.

 

[nottinghamcity]

I think silverlady, that tbone answered the question that I asked in a concise and appropriate way. I have a basic awareness of the process, but requested more insight, which was received. BTW, silverlady has made only 3 posts on this forum, all associated with yourbus. I wonder if anything can be read into this?

 

[Ginga]

New Express Bus Service for Bingham & Radcliffe

The Transport Manager for Notts County Council, the local authority responsible for strategic transport, has notified local Cllrs that a new Bingham-Radcliffe-Nottingham Express Bus Service has been submitted by Nottingham Coaches, which will start on Monday, 22nd Feb if it gets approval by the Transport Commissioner. The service will travel via the A52 to and from Nottm, however, so far, it will be limited to rush hour peak times only in the morning and early evening. More details will follow in due course.

 

[tbone]

Whilst the frequency of Indigo is getting cut back at the end of the month,mother route will a,so be getting a refurbishment.

https://www.trentbarton.co.uk/indigoinstyle

 

[trentside]

New Express Bus Service for Bingham & Radcliffe

The Transport Manager for Notts County Council, the local authority responsible for strategic transport, has notified local Cllrs that a new Bingham-Radcliffe-Nottingham Express Bus Service has been submitted by Nottingham Coaches, which will start on Monday, 22nd Feb if it gets approval by the Transport Commissioner. The service will travel via the A52 to and from Nottm, however, so far, it will be limited to rush hour peak times only in the morning and early evening. More details will follow in due course.

As I understand it, there's been some dissatisfaction with the current Rushcliffe Mainline service. This included Bingham Town Council who were sent a response by TrentBarton that basically told them to stop whining and put up with it. Think it was in the Newark Advertiser but on my phone and can't find it.

Will be interesting to see how things go - always got the impression that the Red1 was one of Premiere's more successful routes.

 

[derbybusdepot]

As I understand it, there's been some dissatisfaction with the current Rushcliffe Mainline service. This included Bingham Town Council who were sent a response by TrentBarton that basically told them to stop whining and put up with it. Think it was in the Newark Advertiser but on my phone and can't find it.

Will be interesting to see how things go - always got the impression that the Red1 was one of Premiere's more successful routes.

I also got that impression, and am surprised no one has run a competing service on this corridor since. Route 17 finishes at the end of January, so i am guessing the same vehicles will be used.

Trent barton do a good job, but there is room for competition here. It will give people a choice and encourage more people to use the bus.

 

[edwin_m]

Trent barton do a good job, but there is room for competition here. It will give people a choice and encourage more people to use the bus.

Based on what has happened previously, a TB subsidiary will flood the route with elderly buses at rock-bottom fares until the competitor gives up, at which point things will revert to pretty much as before. And the average non-expert bus user will just end up totally confused and more likely to take to the car.

 

[kevjs]

As I understand it, there's been some dissatisfaction with the current Rushcliffe Mainline service. This included Bingham Town Council who were sent a response by TrentBarton that basically told them to stop whining and put up with it. Think it was in the Newark Advertiser but on my phone and can't find it.

Will be interesting to see how things go - always got the impression that the Red1 was one of Premiere's more successful routes.

I think you might be referring to this...
http://newarkadvertiser.co.uk/articles/news/QLyWKAQ3IHscI0oFjEnsWIFyUQiIbiervNdeqBv5nJ8un

Councillors raised concerns with the company about the lack of a direct service to Nottingham, late-running and cancelled services and smaller buses.

But, in its response, the company said the complaints were petty and the council should spend more time trying to tackle the town’s parking problems.