Nottingham 'Bus War'

[Mitch in Notts]

And don't get me started on the Y36 being cancelled ??????

Been waiting for that. Been running around empty since they cut the Chilwell section - blatantly obvious they are pulling out of Nottingham. Will just leave the Y5 & Y10 operating in the county.

 

[Deerfold]

I'm pleased to hear it to be honest, it was a silly attempt by Wellglade to drive Yourbus off a service where passengers are scarce most of the time.

I have observed N&D 59 several times and it never seems to have more than a couple of passengers on. Serves them right!

Be interesting to see what happens as once N & D started running, DCC removed the subsidy from the Yourbus journeys. Will they carry on running it commercially or threaten to withdraw it?

 

[Urobach]

This thread is going to have to get changed to 'Derby bus wars' once the new 1/1A begins.
And don't get me started on the Y36 being cancelled

 

[ag51ruk]

But there is bigger news!!!
This thread is going to have to get changed to 'Derby bus wars' once the new 1/1A begins.

Is that Yourbus running to Alvaston? Haven't seen that reported anywhere else.

 

[nottinghamcity]

But there is bigger news!!!
This thread is going to have to get changed to 'Derby bus wars' once the new 1/1A begins.
And don't get me started on the Y36 being cancelled

 

[ThatOneGuy]

Whilst I'm not surprised that the Y36 has been cancelled, I can't find any reference to it. I am struggling to use VOSA's site though. Is the 1/1a a rainbow 1 clone, or something Derby specific?

https://www.vehicle-operator-licens...registered-local-bus-services/details/497432/

Be interesting to see how long the Y5 lasts now as Yourbus' last remaining service into Nottingham.
Also curious to see it's under a completely new reg.

Also heard a rumour Skylink may be rerouted off Castle Boulevard and via Derby Road in the coming months. Would leave an interesting gap in Nottinghams Bus Network if it turns out to be true. It's been a tricky corridor for all operators who've attempted it recently.

 

[ag51ruk]

Is that Yourbus running to Alvaston? Haven't seen that reported anywhere else.

To answer my own question, there is a new registration for Yourbus route 1/1A between Derby and Alvaston starting 12 February. Nothing on the Derbyshire route update pages yet (they still produce info for City of Derby services) .

They seem to have decided that Arriva are an easier target than Trent Barton or NCT.

 

[ashworth]

I'm surprised that the AOT 8 service from the Hucknall Estates to Nottingham has survived as long as it has. It's still running every 30 minutes during the day serving large areas of Hucknall that Trent Barton have continuously refused to run through services into Nottingham from. They can't be too much of a threat to Trent Barton or I would have thought that Trent Barton would have tried to force them out of Hucknall by now.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

I'm surprised that the AOT 8 service from the Hucknall Estates to Nottingham has survived as long as it has. It's still running every 30 minutes during the day serving large areas of Hucknall that Trent Barton have continuously refused to run through services into Nottingham from. They can't be too much of a threat to Trent Barton or I would have thought that Trent Barton would have tried to force them out of Hucknall by now.

I've always had the impression Hucknall was a bit of a loss making area for Trent - look at Connect - Trents only totally commercial route not running on Boxing Day. The Threes are never that busy during the day. The town seems to be more of a commuter belt - yes busy Threes at Peak Times but an even fuller tram car park at the same Peak Time.....

 

[Bunting14]

Also heard a rumour Skylink may...ntioned diverting the Skylink via Derby Road.

 

[Mugby]

https://www.vehicle-operator-licens...registered-local-bus-services/details/497432/

Also heard a rumour Skylink may be rerouted off Castle Boulevard and via Derby Road in the coming months. Would leave an interesting gap in Nottinghams Bus Network if it turns out to be true. It's been a tricky corridor for all operators who've attempted it recently.

How far along Derby Road will it run? Gregory Street? QMC?

 

[ThatOneGuy]

I would imagine it will follow the same route as Indigo if it does happen.

I am curious what would be used to plug that gap though should Skylink be rerouted. Another Locallink, a rerouted Locallink? Or perhaps a new commercial venture.

I'd like to see NCT offer something along there personally, perhaps continuing via Queens Rd and Beeston Station to Beeston Interchange.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

I would imagine it will follow the same route as Indigo if it does happen.

I am curious what would be used to plug that gap though should Skylink be rerouted. Another Locallink, a rerouted Locallink? Or perhaps a new commercial venture.

I'd like to see NCT offer something along there personally, perhaps continuing via Queens Rd and Beeston Station to Beeston Interchange.

Most sensible rerouting would be a 'quiet' service like the 18/20. Alright I know it removes it from the front of the QMC - but then the new treatment centre on Abbey Street is handy as are the medilink stops.
Can't see NCT resurrecting the 13/14 anytime soon - tram too much competion.

 

[edwin_m]

There's very little catchment along the Castle Boulevard/Abbey Bridge corridor. Sainsburys is too far to walk unless someone builds another footbridge, and the retail park and various furniture-type shops along the Boulevard itself aren't going to generate much bus patronage.

Any potential bus users from the houses to the north will probably walk to the more frequent buses on Derby Road or just walk into town. The tram stop on Lenton Lane provides services for the Abbey Street area. Thus it's only really the houses and flats around the roundabout at Castle/Lenton boulevard that would lose out from this, and there aren't enough of them to justify a bus route.

I suspect the main reason for sending Skylink along Castle Boulevard was the quicker journey rather than tapping into any catchment. Since they built the cycle track this advantage has probably gone. As TB are pushing the faster Skylink Express I'm rather surprised Skylink is still so branded rather than reverting to being a branch of Indigo.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

Skylink Express doesn't run 24/7 - hence presumably retaining the Skylink Nottingham branding on the 24/7 route!

 

[Robertj21a]

Skylink Express doesn't run 24/7 - hence presumably retaining the Skylink Nottingham branding on the 24/7 route!

Isn't it also a premium fare ?

 

[edwin_m]

Skylink Express doesn't run 24/7 - hence presumably retaining the Skylink Nottingham branding on the 24/7 route!

The Skylink Express operating hours cover most flights so few air passengers will need to use (what is currently) the Skylink unless travelling to somewhere on the A6005 corridor. Any that do can be directed to use other route out of hours, or even run the coaches on that route during the night. It just strikes me as very odd to be running two branded services to the airport when the market struggles to justify one.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

The Skylink Express operating hours cover most flights so few air passengers will need to use (what is currently) the Skylink unless travelling to somewhere on the A6005 corridor. Any that do can be directed to use other route out of hours, or even run the coaches on that route during the night. It just strikes me as very odd to be running two branded services to the airport when the market struggles to justify one.

You could argue that there is quite a sizeable catchment on the Nottingham Skylink(SN) route - viz Nottingham University, Beeston through to Long Eaton & Sawley, who in their own right warrant such branding.
If the Skylink Express had 'drawn' passengers away from the 'SN' in sizeable numbers then the 'SN' would surely have been reduced in frequency. But no the 'SN' is busy, as it is used as a local route, but also retains the long established traditional airport links when needed.

 

[Robertj21a]

The Skylink Express operating hours cover most flights so few air passengers will need to use (what is currently) the Skylink unless travelling to somewhere on the A6005 corridor. Any that do can be directed to use other route out of hours, or even run the coaches on that route during the night. It just strikes me as very odd to be running two branded services to the airport when the market struggles to justify one.

Surprised the Express is still running, there's hardly anybody on board whenever I see it.

 

[edwin_m]

You could argue that there is quite a sizeable catchment on the Nottingham Skylink(SN) route - viz Nottingham University, Beeston through to Long Eaton & Sawley, who in their own right warrant such branding.
If the Skylink Express had 'drawn' passengers away from the 'SN' in sizeable numbers then the 'SN' would surely have been reduced in frequency. But no the 'SN' is busy, as it is used as a local route, but also retains the long established traditional airport links when needed.

Going by the number of people on board when I see one the Skylink Express isn't doing very well. I'm not suggesting taking the Skylink off, as I agree it does well but mainly from local rather than airport passengers. But it's just too slow to be a decent airport to city centre link and any air passengers using it "on spec" will just choose an alternative mode - a shame when there is a faster and more comfortable route available that to be honest needs every passenger it can get.

 

[ivanhoe]

Trent Barton have caused confusion with their branding in respect of Nottingham Skylink. Derby and Leicester have it quite simple. It's called Skylink and it offers what it states on the can. You go to Loughborough town centre and hey presto there are two Skylinks. Now most of us in Loughborough know that there is only one real Skylink.
This is Nottinghams issue. Rebrand the stopping services Indigo Rainbow3 or whatever, so that there is no confusion as to which bus/coach to catch and go back to where we used to be. If there is little demand for the express service, ditch it or run it from tram park and ride to EMA.

 

[Robertj21a]

Going by the number of people on board when I see one the Skylink Express isn't doing very well. I'm not suggesting taking the Skylink off, as I agree it does well but mainly from local rather than airport passengers. But it's just too slow to be a decent airport to city centre link and any air passengers using it "on spec" will just choose an alternative mode - a shame when there is a faster and more comfortable route available that to be honest needs every passenger it can get.

Despite their attempts with the Express I doubt that EMA has enough volumes to justify it. It always seemed to me that it was put on when they had those ex-RA coaches that needed a home !

 

[PhilStockley]

It was me that wrote the business case for Skylink Express so I feel a great affinity with it and may be able to assist people's understanding.

The availability of the coaches was certainly convenient and shortened the lead time for introduction, but it wasn't the deciding factor - far from it. The project appraisal process in Wellglade is very rigorous indeed and any potential project has to make a compelling business case - the idea of using assets just because they happen to be available would be complete anathema. In this case, the possible use of the coaches on Skylink Express had to be tested against all other possible scenarios, including simply selling them off as well as other possible route innovations. The plan also had to take account of the likely abstraction of revenue from Skylink Nottingham.

Of course I'm not there any more so I have no idea how it is currently performing and I certainly wouldn't breach any commercial confidences. But I can say that the business case recognised that it would take a long time to grow, and this coupled with the strong relationship between trentbarton and EMA meant that any review of performance will take into account performance over a much longer period than might be the case with abnormal commercial bus service. Importantly, the combination of fares and journey time means that the break even load is a lot lower than you might imagine.

Apologies if you've already read it, but there's a lot more on the subject here if it's of any interest:

http://philstockley.blogspot.co.uk/2016/01/skylink-flying-high.html?m=1

 

[edwin_m]

Thanks for that useful insight Paul. As a resident of West Bridgford I certainly hope the Skylink Express is a success.

 

[Robertj21a]

It was me that wrote the business case for Skylink Express so I feel a great affinity with it and may be able to assist people's understanding.

The availability of the coaches was certainly convenient and shortened the lead time for introduction, but it wasn't the deciding factor - far from it. The project appraisal process in Wellglade is very rigorous indeed and any potential project has to make a compelling business case - the idea of using assets just because they happen to be available would be complete anathema. In this case, the possible use of the coaches on Skylink Express had to be tested against all other possible scenarios, including simply selling them off as well as other possible route innovations. The plan also had to take account of the likely abstraction of revenue from Skylink Nottingham.

Of course I'm not there any more so I have no idea how it is currently performing and I certainly wouldn't breach any commercial confidences. But I can say that the business case recognised that it would take a long time to grow, and this coupled with the strong relationship between trentbarton and EMA meant that any review of performance will take into account performance over a much longer period than might be the case with abnormal commercial bus service. Importantly, the combination of fares and journey time means that the break even load is a lot lower than you might imagine.

Apologies if you've already read it, but there's a lot more on the subject here if it's of any interest:

http://philstockley.blogspot.co.uk/2016/01/skylink-flying-high.html?m=1

Phil,

I'm well aware that you had a significant hand in the Express, and I realise that the availability of the coaches was just fortuitous, but it really is going to take forever to pick up volumes if the trend to date is anything to go by. I fully expect it to go through most of 2017 before having a formal review - it will be great if it can remain, but it certainly also needs EMA passenger volumes to increase too.

 

[PhilStockley]

Agree with all of that, except for the crucial point that it's not solely reliant on passenger volumes, but also on employment levels in the area. The level of employment is due to increase significantly in coming years and having the public transport link already in place will open up that employment to residents of key parts of Nottingham, in turn providing a solid bedrock of demand.

 

[ivanhoe]

The 2014 CAA survey stated that nearly 93% of passengers departing from EMA used private transport as their way of getting to the airport. The challenge is to get more of those people to use public transport, rather than rely on increasing passenger numbers which may or may not result in greater public transport use. What you have to take on board is that EMA is mainly a leisure use airport. Families going on holiday may well have spent in excess of £2000 and if they can get parking for say £70 if booked in advance, then there is no way you are going to drag 4 people from their houses to a bus stop ,,complete with suitcases and other hand luggage.
There would have to be a joint initiative from MAG group, Airlines and transport providers to shift transport mode away from the car and the bus/coach will have to respond to the issue of not being city centre 'centric'. Nottingham is not Rome! Most of the people live in the suburbs or inner city! Getting workers to and from the airport and it's surrounding business parks are the growth opportunities. Shift patterns of these parks require public transport which is difficult to plan. Partnership is the key to a successful outcome!

 

[edwin_m]

There would have to be a joint initiative from MAG group, Airlines and transport providers to shift transport mode away from the car and the bus/coach will have to respond to the issue of not being city centre 'centric'. Nottingham is not Rome! Most of the people live in the suburbs or inner city! Getting workers to and from the airport and it's surrounding business parks are the growth opportunities. Shift patterns of these parks require public transport which is difficult to plan. Partnership is the key to a successful outcome!

The various buses to the airport actually do this relatively well. Nottingham Skylink serves a range of suburbs along its route, but for this reason it isn't competitive for city centre journeys. Skylink Express makes three intermediate stops: Nottingham station, Trent Bridge for the wide range of buses to the south and east, and Clifton Park and Ride for the tram. However the times of flights and of shift changes makes this more difficult because although the airport buses are running the connecting buses often aren't.

 

[ashworth]

Nottingham Skylink serves a range of suburbs along its route, but for this reason it isn't competitive for city centre journeys. Skylink Express makes three intermediate stops: Nottingham station, Trent Bridge for the wide range of buses to the south and east, and Clifton Park and Ride for the tram.

I'm surprised that Skylink Express doesn't stop at East Midlands Parkway. I know it's been discussed many times before about a lack of a bus service from EMP to the airport and I can fully understand that it is perhaps not viable. However, I would have thought that with some advertising there ought to be a market for travel from Clifton, especially the Nottingham Trent University, to East Midlands Parkway for onward rail travel to London at a shorter journey time than travelling via central Nottingham. East Midlands Parkway to Clifton and Nottingham, or to the Airport alone would not be viable, but when the bus is passing the station on a regular basis I would have thought that a small amount of additional revenue could be made from stopping at the station.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

I'm surprised that Skylink Express doesn't stop at East Midlands Parkway. I know it's been discussed many times before about a lack of a bus service from EMP to the airport and I can fully understand that it is perhaps not viable. However, I would have thought that with some advertising there ought to be a market for travel from Clifton, especially the Nottingham Trent University, to East Midlands Parkway for onward rail travel to London at a shorter journey time than travelling via central Nottingham. East Midlands Parkway to Clifton and Nottingham, or to the Airport alone would not be viable, but when the bus is passing the station on a regular basis I would have thought that a small amount of additional revenue could be made from stopping at the station.

I believe it doesn't stop due to added journey time - alright only minutes, but some of the early/late journeys are on tight turnarounds - Clifton P&R becomes request only inbound on certain journeys from 29th Jan partly due to this. Plus the number of trains (4 per hour isnt it) that actually serve the station isn't great.