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Nottingham 'Bus War'

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ashworth

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I received an email today from Trent Barton informing me that the daily cap for Mango Card users is rising from Sunday 29th January. That means that Off Peak travel daily cap, after 9.00 am using Mango it is to go up by 20p from £5 to £5.20.

Most of the return journeys I make using Mango come to over that amount so it will just mean a 20p rise whenever I make a bus journey. I'm just grateful that Mango exists as some of their fares without the 15% discount are rediculously high. I can't believe it when I look at their online fares tool for some of their routes like the 141, Amberline and Blackcat.
 
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ag51ruk

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TrentBarton - The really expensive bus company!

Haven't we gone through this before? My single from Mickleover to Derby has recently gone up but is £2.30 cash or £1.96 Mango, on brand new buses running frequently all day 7 days a week, and with no competition. Outside PTE areas, is that really expensive? Arriva in Crewe will charge me more than that for the less than 1 mile trip to the rail station.
 

ashworth

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Haven't we gone through this before? My single from Mickleover to Derby has recently gone up but is £2.30 cash or £1.96 Mango, on brand new buses running frequently all day 7 days a week, and with no competition. Outside PTE areas, is that really expensive? Arriva in Crewe will charge me more than that for the less than 1 mile trip to the rail station.

I agree that's good value and most of Trent Barton's main high frequency routes are reasonably priced with new buses running 7 days a week. The really expensive fares are on the less frequent routes with old buses only running at the most hourly, for 6 days a week with no evening services or Sunday services.
I know that we are perhaps lucky to still have hourly daytime services but fares like £7.10 return for the occasional user without Mango are a bit steep from villages just outside Hucknall into Nottingham. A 20 minute walk into Hucknall and it's less than half that price by train on the Robin Hood Line.
 

Mugby

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It could be said that not only Mango fares but almost all fares are capped by virtue of the Zig-Zag ticket but that throws up some annoying anomalies. Take for example someone who wishes to travel on The Nines from Derby to the Designer Outlet at South Normanton. A two trip ticket will cost £7.70 whilst a zig-zag is £6. But are all intending passengers told about this?

Another example is someone from Coalville who wishes to visit Nottingham, a two trip ticket is £9.90, zig-zag £6. However, if someone from Coalville wishes to visit Derby by changing at the Airport, the total in return fares comes to a whopping £14.30 because zig-zag is not available on Skylink Derby due to it being operated by "a different company"

Of course the zig-zag is only available on the day of it's issue but I would suggest that most travellers return the same day anyway. There are issues in TrentBarton's pricing policy which could and should be addressed. Walk on fares have been hiked up terribly to cover the cost of Mango and people should not be forced into using them.
 

ashworth

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It could be said that not only Mango fares but almost all fares are capped by virtue of the Zig-Zag ticket but that throws up some annoying anomalies. Take for example someone who wishes to travel on The Nines from Derby to the Designer Outlet at South Normanton. A two trip ticket will cost £7.70 whilst a zig-zag is £6. But are all intending passengers told about this?

Another example is someone from Coalville who wishes to visit Nottingham, a two trip ticket is £9.90, zig-zag £6. However, if someone from Coalville wishes to visit Derby by changing at the Airport, the total in return fares comes to a whopping £14.30 because zig-zag is not available on Skylink Derby due to it being operated by "a different company"

Of course the zig-zag is only available on the day of it's issue but I would suggest that most travellers return the same day anyway. There are issues in TrentBarton's pricing policy which could and should be addressed. Walk on fares have been hiked up terribly to cover the cost of Mango and people should not be forced into using them.

Unfortunately, that is not the case if your outward journey is before 9.00am as the Zigzag fare is not available before 9 Monday to Friday. This is the same with the daily Mango cap.

A journey like Hucknall to Chesterfield is extremely high at any time of the day because of the high fares on Trent Barton's 141 from Hucknall to Ravenshead (Newstead Abbey Gates) where for that short distance the return fare is higher than the Mango £5.20 cap or the £6 Zigzag. Then to make matters worse you have to pay an additional £6.40 rerun fare from Ravenshead to Chesterfield because both Mango and Zigzag are not accepted on Pronto. That just shows how high Trent Barton's route 141 fares are when a long distance journey like Ravenshead to Chesterfield is the same price as a short local journey from Hucknall to Ravenshead.

The fact that Trent Barton don't accept their own Zigzag Tickets and Mango and Stagecoach their own Day Explorer tickets on the jointly operated Pronto Service needs sorting, but will it ever be. That means which ever operator you are using you have to pay again, even if you've reached a daily cap, to use the main Nottingham-Mansfield-Chesterfield route because tickets with daily caps can't be used on that route. Stagecoach are usually very good, in other parts of the country at ticket acceptance on jointly operated routes, so I can only think that Trent Barton causing the problem here.

I actually think that, despite their high fares on their less frequent routes, Trent Barton are indeed a very good bus company with friendly and very helpful drivers. As a large independent operator, with a long history, I wouldn't really like to see it taken over by such as First, Stagecoach, Arriva etc. However, there does need to be better multi operator ticketing integration in the County of Nottinghamshire if only between them and Stagecoach in Mansfield.
 
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Jordeh

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Walk on fares have been hiked up terribly to cover the cost of Mango and people should not be forced into using them.
Cash is both time consuming and more expensive for Trent Barton compared to using a smartcard. The less people using it, the better.
 
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A journey such as Coalville to Derby is covered by a £9 ZigZag Plus, valid on both Trent & Kinch. What is annoying is that someone starting a days travel using a Mango card is NOT capped at £9 but is charged for each individual journey - nor does it cap at £5 for those journeys made after 9am within that days travel.
A trip from Nuthall to Shipley View near Ilkeston Hospital used to be available on a single bus on a return ticket. It is now 3 buses and costs me with a Mango £11.56 return before 9am and £5 (soon to be £5.20) after! But if I get a lift home I'm wasting money buying a £9 cash zig zag plus.... A distance of about 6 miles by the way - which I now finding myself walking big sections of due to it being quicker than waiting for the next bus!
 
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ashworth

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A journey such as Coalville to Derby is covered by a £9 ZigZag Plus, valid on both Trent & Kinch. What is annoying is that someone starting a days travel using a Mango card is NOT capped at £9 but is charged for each individual journey - nor does it cap at £5 for those journeys made after 9am within that days travel.
A trip from Nuthall to Shipley View near Ilkeston Hospital used to be available on a single bus on a return ticket. It is now 3 buses and costs me with a Mango £11.56 return before 9am and £5 (soon to be £5.20) after! But if I get a lift home I'm wasting money buying a £9 cash zig zag plus.... A distance of about 6 miles by the way - which I now finding myself walking big sections of due to it being quicker than waiting for the next bus!

This is exactly what I've been trying to say. Even using a Mango Card, anyone travelling before 9am are paying extortionate prices often for quite local journeys if that means catching more than one bus. I didn't realise that further journeys after 9 are not capped at £5 as I rarely travel before 9am these days. That's disgraceful if there's no cap whatsoever if your first journey is before 9am. It's probably wise to have an extra Mango Card just to use before 9am if you are doing lots more journeys later in the day, but we shouldn't have to be doing that!

I want to support Trent Barton as a good friendly local company. The last thing I would want is for them to be taken over by Stagecoach, Arriva, First etc. It would be such a shame after all these years of them operating in this area.
But when you see that with Stagecoach a Mansfield Day Rider is only £3.50, a Day Rider Plus (covering a much wider area) is £5 and a Day Explorer covering a huge area right up into Yorkshire is only £6, it makes you think. All of these Stagecoach tickets available in North Nottinghamshire and the Chesterfield Area ones are valid all day with no 9am restriction. This makes Mango very expensive in comparison and we are being completely overcharged when making a series of short local journeys. It's keeping me fit as I'm doing more and more walking.
 
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Pigalle

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also it was promised in early - mid 2016 that the the electronic trentbartonland Saver tickets would cover both networks although I've never had any confirmation that this ever happened.

I have contacted Trent Barton about this and they have confirmed that this is now the case; why would you keep quiet about such a good enhancement to your product from existing customers?
 

Statto

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Talking about the Pronto it's quite irritating day tickets are not valid on this route, seems to be single/two trip cash fares only, & i don't see what's special about the buses either that warrents this, this is one route that could be a candidate for a QBP with day tickets valid ecc?
 

ag51ruk

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I have contacted Trent Barton about this and they have confirmed that this is now the case; why would you keep quiet about such a good enhancement to your product from existing customers?

It does say on the full website that Savers are valid on Kinchbus, and there was a news story in May last year about it.

https://www.trentbarton.co.uk/news-and-media/our-news/article/saverchanges2016

However, the mobile version of the website hasn't been updated and still says that Savers are NOT valid on Kinchbus. Kinch and TB appear to use the same ticket machines, been a while since I travelled on Notts & Derby but they were using the older Almex machines still. Kinch have also been trialling contactless payments using touch on/touch off.
 

Robertj21a

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Talking about the Pronto it's quite irritating day tickets are not valid on this route, seems to be single/two trip cash fares only, & i don't see what's special about the buses either that warrents this, this is one route that could be a candidate for a QBP with day tickets valid ecc?

I'm amazed this long-running saga hasn't been resolved. Wasn't it Trent that didn't want to co-operate (possibly because of their various fare permutations) ?
 

ivanhoe

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This is exactly what I've been trying to say. Even using a Mango Card, anyone travelling before 9am are paying extortionate prices often for quite local journeys if that means catching more than one bus. I didn't realise that further journeys after 9 are not capped at £5 as I rarely travel before 9am these days. That's disgraceful if there's no cap whatsoever if your first journey is before 9am. It's probably wise to have an extra Mango Card just to use before 9am if you are doing lots more journeys later in the day, but we shouldn't have to be doing that!

I want to support Trent Barton as a good friendly local company. The last thing I would want is for them to be taken over by Stagecoach, Arriva, First etc. It would be such a shame after all these years of them operating in this area.
But when you see that with Stagecoach a Mansfield Day Rider is only £3.50, a Day Rider Plus (covering a much wider area) is £5 and a Day Explorer covering a huge area right up into Yorkshire is only £6, it makes you think. All of these Stagecoach tickets available in North Nottinghamshire and the Chesterfield Area ones are valid all day with no 9am restriction. This makes Mango very expensive in comparison and we are being completely overcharged when making a series of short local journeys. It's keeping me fit as I'm doing more and more walking.

There is zero chance of TB being taken over by the so called big boys. First would have to change its current policy, Arriva would have issues re Derby, Stagecoach would have been in by now if they were really interested by competing on routes. TB is quite a successful transport body that has concentrated on keeping any growing what it knows best, mainly bus operations and light rail in its region. It does come at a cost for certain routes, but it wouldn't be any cheaper on Stagecoach et al.
 

Robertj21a

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There is zero chance of TB being taken over by the so called big boys. First would have to change its current policy, Arriva would have issues re Derby, Stagecoach would have been in by now if they were really interested by competing on routes. TB is quite a successful transport body that has concentrated on keeping any growing what it knows best, mainly bus operations and light rail in its region. It does come at a cost for certain routes, but it wouldn't be any cheaper on Stagecoach et al.

That's 3 of the 'big boys' - most people would consider there are 2 others that could be interested.
 

ashworth

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There is zero chance of TB being taken over by the so called big boys. First would have to change its current policy, Arriva would have issues re Derby, Stagecoach would have been in by now if they were really interested by competing on routes. TB is quite a successful transport body that has concentrated on keeping any growing what it knows best, mainly bus operations and light rail in its region. It does come at a cost for certain routes, but it wouldn't be any cheaper on Stagecoach et al.

The last thing I would want to happen is Trent Barton being taken over by one of the so called big boys. I appreciate the history of the company in the area even though as a child I remember most of my local routes were operated by Midland General which I believe was taken over by Trent in the early 1970s.

The buses are usually in good condition and the drivers always friendly. I think many people in Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire feel some loyalty towards them. However, I do feel it's a shame that they do appear to be losing a bit of this general goodwill in some areas because of the high fares charged when people are just trying to make simple journeys from one neighbouring town or village to another. A short return trip into Hucknall from neighbouring Watnall on the Amberline for shopping shouldn't cost more than the daily Mango Cap or than a Zigzag Day ticket!
 
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ivanhoe

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The last thing I would want to happen is Trent Barton being taken over by one of the so called big boys. I appreciate the history of the company in the area even though as a child I remember most of my local routes were operated by Midland General which I believe was taken over by Trent in the early 1970s.

The buses are usually in good condition and the driers always friendly. I think many people in Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire feel some loyalty towards them. However, I do feel it's a shame that they do appear to be losing a bit of this general goodwill in some areas because of the high fares charged when people are just trying to make simple journeys from one neighbouring town or village to another. A short return trip into Hucknall from neighbouring Watnall on the Amberline for shopping shouldn't cost more than the daily Mango Cap or than a Zigzag Day ticket!

I see your problem. What's the ridership like on such routes?
 

AndyW33

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I appreciate the history of the company in the area even though as a child I remember most of my local routes were operated by Midland General which I believe was taken over by Trent in the early 1970s.

Not really. Neither Midland General nor Trent had been independent bus companies for a very long time indeed. Trent had been part of the BET group of companies since the 1930s, and Midland General part of the Balfour Beatty group since its very beginnings in the 1920s. Balfour Beatty sold their bus and trolleybus interests to the government in 1948, and Midland General was run as a nationalised company from then on. Notts & Derby was also a Balfour Beatty company and it was run by the same management team as Midland General, and passed to the government in 1948 as part of Midland General.
In 1968 the BET group in turn sold their bus interests to the government and Trent and Midland General both became subsidiaries of the state-owned National Bus Company. Looking for economies in overhead costs, National Bus saw two separate Head Offices and overhaul works within a few miles of each other, and merged Midland General into Trent, much the larger of the two companies. Ultimately Trent (and the Midland General and Notts and Derby names, which they still own), was privatised at the end of the 1980s
 

ashworth

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I see your problem. What's the ridership like on such routes?

I don't know how well they are used in the morning peak, but certainly during the day there are plenty of passengers travelling on them. However, and this is probably part of the problem, mostly it is people using concessionary free passes. Sometimes, even when I'm using my Mango card I feel I'm the only one paying!

In the villages of Linby and Papplewick, where I live, the bus fares on the 141 route are something people just laugh about when they find someone has been foolish enough to catch the bus into Hucknall or Nottingham. I don't think anyone really believes us how high they are for the short walkable journey into Hucknall. People from Hucknall just gasp in amazement at the price we are charged into Nottingham. Myslelf and most able bodied people don't use it but walk over the boundary into Hucknall to catch the Three. Even with Mango the prices are far too high. I would certainly regularly use the 141 if the prices were reduced considerably but like many other fare paying passengers in the villages I rarely use it. I know it's providing a service and it could be a case of use it or lose it but the fares have gone past the point of being sensible.

I've said enough now over the last few days and got it off my chest. I will leave the thread for other Nottingham bus matters. However, if you want to have a look the fares for these routes can be viewed on Trent Barton's website in their fare finder.
 
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richardderby

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The 59 shows as being registered by Notts & Derby last week, with an effective date of 15th August 2016.

the 59 (N&D) finished for good today.
this leaves the Y59 operating, i wonder if it will return to its original route(Breadsall Village/Oakwood), as this has been the usual route since the 1990's when Trent operated the 123/124.
 
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Bunting14

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The Y36 has been withdrawn from today. The Y5 is being diverted from University Boulevard to go along Woodside Road and Derby Road.
 

Bwsbro

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The Y36 has been withdrawn from today. The Y5 is being diverted from University Boulevard to go along Woodside Road and Derby Road.

It is certainly disapointing with the downfall of Yourbus in Nottingham. First the fall of the Y28, then the failure of the Y4 and now the Y36.

Let's hope that they do have some sucsess in Derby competing against Arriva. As it is a market that can be cornered by Yourbus. I've always wondered why Trent Haven't competed against Arriva in Derby
 

Robertj21a

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It is certainly disapointing with the downfall of Yourbus in Nottingham. First the fall of the Y28, then the failure of the Y4 and now the Y36.

Let's hope that they do have some sucsess in Derby competing against Arriva. As it is a market that can be cornered by Yourbus. I've always wondered why Trent Haven't competed against Arriva in Derby

Probably because Trent would be very concerned at retaliation on their profitable routes !

Yourbus tend to fail simply because they usually only try to cream off the profit from existing routes. They take few risks themselves and rarely innovate. In Nottingham they were always likely to fail.
 

Marcus Fryer

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It is certainly disapointing with the downfall of Yourbus in Nottingham. First the fall of the Y28, then the failure of the Y4 and now the Y36.

Let's hope that they do have some sucsess in Derby competing against Arriva. As it is a market that can be cornered by Yourbus. I've always wondered why Trent Haven't competed against Arriva in Derby

Trent/Kinchbus are on most of the main corridors out of Derby already; i4 and Indigo to Chaddesden and Skylink to Alveston for example.
 

ag51ruk

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Trent/Kinchbus are on most of the main corridors out of Derby already; i4 and Indigo to Chaddesden and Skylink to Alveston for example.

Trent and Arriva have a long-standing history of not competing with each other, except where it can't be avoided (like on the main road out of Derby to Chaddesden).

The only time since deregulation that I can remember it happening was in Allenton/Chellaston in the early 90s, when Trent increased the frequency of their Melbourne buses to every 15 minutes. That eventually lead to a deal which would certainly be frowned on these days, that saw Trent hand the Melbourne and Swadlincote services to Derby City Transport (now Arriva) and in return DCT stopped running to Spondon and Ilkeston - routes which today are the Spondon and Ilkeston Flyers, but used to be DCT 19 and 21 - and Burton, which DCT ran as the 31 but is now Trent's V3.

They ran many services in Derby jointly until 1986, and still have the jointly operated X38.
 

Mugby

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In a very strange move, Trent are increasing the frequency of the Ilkeston Flyer with effect from 26th March, from three buses per hour to four.

This will mean that one of the new departures from Derby, the xx35, will run simultaneously with Yourbus. With a combined frequency of six buses per hour at present, it surely can't be in response to demand, is it the opening shot of a move against Yourbus and which stand will the extra bus use at Derby?
 
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