Nottinghamshire & Derbyshire Bus News

[ThatOneGuy]

Presumably they have been made aware as part of the statutory consultation process!

Not really a consultation process, more a statutory notification process, the dates for which are about right for this now becoming widespread knowledge. Councillors, MPs, stakeholder groups can disagree with the decision all they like but unless there is a big subsidy pot to fall back on or they can convince hundreds more passengers a day to use the service it's not going to change anything.

Personally I think the 141 is just too long. The longer the route the more prone it is to delays because by its very nature:

• it will cross more traffic hotspots
• it will have a higher probability of roadworks being present somewhere on the route
• it will encounter more areas of poor parking (if large parts are through residential areas)

The only way to counter those is to increase running time but that risks journey attractiveness and may not be possible without more costly resource.

I suspect what we'll see is potentially a Nottingham > Bestwood > Hucknall service, maybe with some journeys covering Papplewick and Linby. That could be done hourly with 2 buses or two hourly with 1. The rest of the route will, in my opinion at least, be best covered with extensions of other tendered or commercial services rather than one long direct route. And if that happens I would suspect the number of journeys will reduce.

Not great at a time when the industry is supposed to be in recovery and attracting people back with this and a lot of other services, it's likely these sort of rationalisations were needed a few years ago and they've been postponed by the covid recovery pot which is now pretty much empty.

 

[ChrisC]

Not really a consultation process, more a statutory notification process, the dates for which are about right for this now becoming widespread knowledge. Councillors, MPs, stakeholder groups can disagree with the decision all they like but unless there is a big subsidy pot to fall back on or they can convince hundreds more passengers a day to use the service it's not going to change anything.

Personally I think the 141 is just too long. The longer the route the more prone it is to delays because by its very nature:

• it will cross more traffic hotspots
• it will have a higher probability of roadworks being present somewhere on the route
• it will encounter more areas of poor parking (if large parts are through residential areas)

The only way to counter those is to increase running time but that risks journey attractiveness and may not be possible without more costly resource.

I suspect what we'll see is potentially a Nottingham > Bestwood > Hucknall service, maybe with some journeys covering Papplewick and Linby. That could be done hourly with 2 buses or two hourly with 1. The rest of the route will, in my opinion at least, be best covered with extensions of other tendered or commercial services rather than one long direct route. And if that happens I would suspect the number of journeys will reduce.

Not great at a time when the industry is supposed to be in recovery and attracting people back with this and a lot of other services, it's likely these sort of rationalisations were needed a few years ago and they've been postponed by the covid recovery pot which is now pretty much empty.

I’m just about old enough to remember the 141 route back in the days when it was the Midland General B8 before Trent took over. During the late 1960’s and 1970’s I used it daily to travel to school, and in the years shortly after it was became a Trent route I used it daily to travel to college.

Back in the days when it was the Midland General B8 it just ran between Nottingham and Mansfield. Interestingly 50-60 years later it is still running at the same times on that main part of the route leaving Nottingham at xx30 each hour and Mansfield on the hour. Over those 50+ years the roads have become much more congested and diversions through Barbara Square and past Tesco in Hucknall, plus going up through Bestwood to the Country Park have been added to the route. I was speaking to a lady in Linby who is now aged over 90 who tells me she can’t remember it running through Linby at any different times even when she was a child. In Midland General days there were extra buses at peak times, it was half hourly on Saturdays and there was a Sunday and evening service. Although the last bus from Mansfield was always at 9pm which formed the 10.30pm back from Nottingham.

I don’t know what will happen to it. Certainly the Papplewick Lane area of Hucknall, Moor Road and Bestwood Village need a regular bus into Nottingham. The villages of Linby and Papplewick need buses into Hucknall and at least some buses to Nottingham and to a lesser extent Mansfield. There have always been traditionally quite a few passengers who use it from Blidworth and Ravenshead towards Hucknall. There are also a limited number who use it to Ravenshead to connect with Stagecoach Pronto to Nottingham, Mansfield or even Chesterfield.

I still live on the route and if it was more reliable and actually turned up I would try to use it more instead of using my car. It’s also very annoying that it is potentially being axed just 6 weeks before I get my bus pass!

 

[SSmith2009]

Maybe a Connect style service between Hucknall and Mansfield only could work?

Following the current route between Hucknall and Ravenshead then direct to Mansfield - hourly and using only one bus
(Blidworth and Rainworth have stagecoach buses to Mansfield)

Change onto the threes or tram into Nottingham
------------------------------------------------------------------

High Peak were planning cuts to Transpeak this coming Sunday but Derby City Council and Derbyshire County Council have stepped up to ensure it continues in its current form.

Details here: https://www.highpeakbuses.com/bus-services/transpeak-tp2

Most journeys between Derby and Matlock were to be withdrawn due to low passenger numbers. We made Derby City and Derbyshire aware that could not continue the TP service as it is and both Councils explored options to help finance the service and following an impact assessment, we are pleased to announce that financial support has been agreed and we are able to continue operating the Trans Peak service between Derby and Buxton.

 

[Llandudno]

Maybe a Connect style service between Hucknall and Mansfield only could work?

Following the current route between Hucknall and Ravenshead then direct to Mansfield - hourly and using only one bus
(Blidworth and Rainworth have stagecoach buses to Mansfield)

Change onto the threes or tram into Nottingham
------------------------------------------------------------------

High Peak were planning cuts to Transpeak this coming Sunday but Derby City Council and Derbyshire County Council have stepped up to ensure it continues in its current form.

Details here: https://www.highpeakbuses.com/bus-services/transpeak-tp2

Great news, shame that DCC website says that a revised timetable commences on Sun 10 July and that a new timetable will be available ‘shortly’!

Please clarify what DCC means in this post - both Derby City and Derbyshire County Councils are mentioned in the post that you have replied to.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Maybe a Connect style service between Hucknall and Mansfield only could work?

Following the current route between Hucknall and Ravenshead then direct to Mansfield - hourly and using only one bus
(Blidworth and Rainworth have stagecoach buses to Mansfield)

Change onto the threes or tram into Nottingham
------------------------------------------------------------------

High Peak were planning cuts to Transpeak this coming Sunday but Derby City Council and Derbyshire County Council have stepped up to ensure it continues in its current form.

Details here: https://www.highpeakbuses.com/bus-services/transpeak-tp2

Interesting to see the City Council apparently providing some financial support.

 

[station_road]

Great news, shame that DCC website says that a revised timetable commences on Sun 10 July and that a new timetable will be available ‘shortly’!

Please clarify what DCC means in this post - both Derby City and Derbyshire County Councils are mentioned in the post that you have replied to.

https://www.derbyshire.gov.uk/trans...nges/forthcoming-changes-to-bus-services.aspx

The Derbyshire County Council website now confirms that

• Transpeak and Service 61: Services will continue unchanged

An article on the Derby Telegraph website only mentions support from Derbyshire County Council, not the City Council

 

[STINT47]

I'm pleased that the Transpeak will continue but does the council funding reward a failing company?

It would appear to me that High Peak have run down a profitable service over the years. Rather than have consequence the public purse is going to be used to cover their mistakes and lack of interest in attracting and retaining passengers.

I don't live in Derbyshire but if I did I would not be to pleased to see my council tax spent supporting a poorly managed bus firm.

 

[markymark2000]

I'm pleased that the Transpeak will continue but does the council funding reward a failing company?

It would appear to me that High Peak have run down a profitable service over the years. Rather than have consequence the public purse is going to be used to cover their mistakes and lack of interest in attracting and retaining passengers.

I don't live in Derbyshire but if I did I would not be to pleased to see my council tax spent supporting a poorly managed bus firm.

If councils only supported innovative bus companies and not the failing ones, not many services would be supported as the innovative ones are few and far between and often tender higher because of the costs such as advertising and branding. Councils tend not to award on quality, just cost.

I do fully agree with your comments, it's just the practicalities of it.

 

[derbybusdepot]

I'm pleased that the Transpeak will continue but does the council funding reward a failing company?

It would appear to me that High Peak have run down a profitable service over the years. Rather than have consequence the public purse is going to be used to cover their mistakes and lack of interest in attracting and retaining passengers.

I don't live in Derbyshire but if I did I would not be to pleased to see my council tax spent supporting a poorly managed bus firm.

Very true. I think the coming months will see operators cancelling and cutting back services in hope they receive council funding to keep them going. Will high peak have the resources to continue operating the transpeak reliably? The Derby to Belper section mirrors the sixes. Is this a waste of council funding. It could fund a bus on another route.

Trent Barton have not announced their cut backs on the website yet, perhaps hoping some will continue with funding. As they are unable to operate so many services with the resources they have, personally I hope other operators will be awarded some tenders.

 

[DDB]

It does seem a slightly odd choice to me as the bit that was going to be withdrawn (Derby Matlock) has a train service and other bus services that cover it and it is or at least was a prestige limited stop service. It seems a waste of precious subsidy.

 

[ashworth]

Trent Barton have not announced their cut backs on the website yet, perhaps hoping some will continue with funding. As they are unable to operate so many services with the resources they have, personally I hope other operators will be awarded some tenders.

According to reports in local newspapers the withdrawal of TrentBarton 141 route was discussed at a meeting of Notts County Council this week. I don't think even with funding TrentBarton will continue to operate it as they are saying that with their ongoing driver shortage the drivers from the 141 route will be used to increase the reliability of other nearby routes.

The importance of the link to Nottingham City Hospital and Kings Mill Hospital is reported on. Leaving Linby and Papplewick with no buses is mentioned and also leaving Bestwood, Blidworth and Rainworth with no direct buses to Nottingham.

I don't know, if they agree to subsidise it and put it out to tender, who will want to run it, or even if it will remain as one through roundabout route. I wonder if there is a posibility that Stagecoach would take on the section from Blidworth to Sutton in Ashfield as that part of the route could easily be integrated with their current services. Would Stagecoach take on the whole route? I doubt it.

 

[Deerfold]

It does seem a slightly odd choice to me as the bit that was going to be withdrawn (Derby Matlock) has a train service and other bus services that cover it and it is or at least was a prestige limited stop service. It seems a waste of precious subsidy.

I think it hasn't helped that it became part of High Peak with no ticketing arrangements with Trentbarton. When I was a student I'd catch it reasonably often, but as part of a day out, with a ZigZag Plus - I'd have to get a bus to Derby, then I might stop off at some of the towns between Derby and Matlock, using either the TP or the 6s.

 

[Llandudno]

I think it hasn't helped that it became part of High Peak with no ticketing arrangements with Trentbarton. When I was a student I'd catch it reasonably often, but as part of a day out, with a ZigZag Plus - I'd have to get a bus to Derby, then I might stop off at some of the towns between Derby and Matlock, using either the TP or the 6s.

Agreed, the TransPeak has suffered since the non inter availability of return tickets with TrentBarton Sixes was withdrawn when CentreBus took over High Peak Buses.

Many users of the TransPeak are concessionary pass holders, not sure what level of reimbursement High Peak gets for those using the TransPeak, plus there is also significant Derbyshire and TfGM Wayfarer usage, but many people have already bought these tickets on other buses or rail stations before catching the TransPeak, how is this money apportioned to the TransPeak?

I agree that it may seem wasteful to subsidise the section between Derby and Belper, perhaps a true clock face hourly service between Buxton and Belper would suffice connecting with trains at Buxton and TrentBarton’s frequent Sixes at Belper. Through/interchangeable tickets would be needed though…

 

[43055]

Notts and Derby 44 caught fire yesterday afternoon near Raynesway and according to the Derby Bus Depot two E200 MMC's are due for Unibus services.

 

[Volvo142]

Notts and Derby 44 caught fire yesterday afternoon near Raynesway and according to the Derby Bus Depot two E200 MMC's are due for Unibus services.

They've arrived. New deckers for Uni work to follow.

 

[43055]

They've arrived. New deckers for Uni work to follow.

Interesting. I assume E400MMC's to go with the E200MMC's.

 

[derbybusdepot]

Interesting. I assume E400MMC's to go with the E200MMC's.

Should be 3 E400s, in black

 

[markymark2000]

Is there any ticketing agreement between TrentBarton and Notts&Derby? Notts and Derby compliment TB in a number of areas but I can't find any details anywhere on ticket acceptance (can't find any info on Notts & Derby tickets at all)

 

[derbybusdepot]

Is there any ticketing agreement between TrentBarton and Notts&Derby? Notts and Derby compliment TB in a number of areas but I can't find any details anywhere on ticket acceptance (can't find any info on Notts & Derby tickets at all)

Zig zags/mango are still valid/ issued on the 71/2 as far as I am aware.

They are not valid on other services including their part (peak extras Mon to Fri) of the V3 though.

 

[markymark2000]

Zig zags/mango are still valid/ issued on the 71/2 as far as I am aware.

They are not valid on other services including their part of the V3 though.

Thank you, much appreciated.

What a daft arrangement though. Same owner and they run on the same route. No wonder people call for public ownership if this is how companies conduct themselves.

 

[edwin_m]

Competition Commission looks fairly sourly on bus companies agreeing ticket interavailability, unless all companies in an area have the opportunity to participate.

 

[markymark2000]

Competition Commission looks fairly sourly on bus companies agreeing ticket interavailability, unless all companies in an area have the opportunity to participate.

They are owned by the same company though?
It'd be the same as them kicking off that a return between Prestwich and Manchester on the Transdev X43 shouldn't be valid on the Transdev X41. Legally they are ran by completely different companies. The only join between them is the owner.


I think if it's different owners, granted, very valid point but it's not, same owner.

 

[Scott1]

Thank you, much appreciated.

What a daft arrangement though. Same owner and they run on the same route. No wonder people call for public ownership if this is how companies conduct themselves.

I think you can use Spectrum on both.

 

[chessie]

Unless its changed as I havent looked recently, the Mango discount is still available on the 71/72 but it doesn't count to your Daily Cap limit on Trent Barton buses as it would have done prior to Notts & Derby taking over the route. I believe this route is a bit of an exception regarding the Mango acceptance on Notts & Derby but if the discount can be applied here why cant it be offered across all the previous routes that have transferred within the Wellglade Group?

Surely it must confuse passengers further who will just see it as a price rise and downgrade making travel more of a hassle but economically I am sure there must be commercial reasons for Wellglade otherwise they surely wouldn't keep making these changes to services, would they?

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I'm pleased that the Transpeak will continue but does the council funding reward a failing company?

It would appear to me that High Peak have run down a profitable service over the years. Rather than have consequence the public purse is going to be used to cover their mistakes and lack of interest in attracting and retaining passengers.

I don't live in Derbyshire but if I did I would not be to pleased to see my council tax spent supporting a poorly managed bus firm.

Maybe Transpeak would be better off either as a seperate company or another operator should buy the rights to the brand and run it themselves.

 

[Deerfold]

Maybe Transpeak would be better off either as a seperate company or another operator should buy the rights to the brand and run it themselves.

I'm not sure how that would help - one of the problems already is it's no longer part of the trentbarton network. I'm not sure how removing it from the High Peak network would improve things - they run around 75% of the other buses in the Buxton area.

 

[Simon75]

Maybe Transpeak would be better off either as a seperate company or another operator should buy the rights to the brand and run it themselves.

High Peak is 50%Wellglade/50% Centrebus, with the legal name , Eric W
Bower Coaches, Leicester (Centrebus HQ)

Each other could buy the other out.(eg Centrebus Holdings in Yorkshire was 50%Arriva/50% Centrebus) Centrebus sold out to Arriva

 

[Mugby]

Given the mess that Wellglade have been in for most of this year, I can't see them buying anyone out in the foreseeable future!

 

[daodao]

I spoke to TfGM yesterday and they confirmed that from the Stagecoach end-October listing, the services that will be totally withdrawn are:-
102
108
150
237
323
358

Others on the listing are evening services.

Total withdrawal of routes 237 and 358 will break key links from Derbyshire. Route 237 runs from Glossop/Hadfield to Stalybridge/Ashton, and was formerly a part of longer multi-operator route 6 that extended to Manchester (Lower Mosley Street). Route 358 runs from Hayfield/New Mills to Marple/Stockport, and was formerly a part of longer North West Road Car Company route 28 that also extended to Manchester (Lower Mosley Street).

Loss of these 2 key routes will adversely impact connectivity between Derbyshire and Greater Manchester, and would be the last stage in Stagecoach Manchester's withdrawal from cross-boundary services. It also marks yet another stage in the disappearance of former North West Road Car Company's trunk routes. I wonder whether these cross-boundary routes don't sit easily within the disastrous new franchising system about to be imposed in Greater Manchester, and might be picked up (at least in part) by a Derbyshire-based operator such as High Peak.

 

[Redmike]

As well as that they seem well used and have decent Sunday and late evening services. Very odd.