Now that consumer law applies, what happens if complimentary catering is unavailable?

[MikeWh]

I think the 50% suggestion was 50% of the difference between 1st and Standard accomodation. Therefore about £37 in the case of the FOS-SOS between EUS & MAN.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Does it say anywhere if the refund has to be in the format originally paid? Could VT et al. just give out £5 Foodbar vouchers to all first class customers for use on subsequent trips and count this as the refund?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

BA is abandoning free food and drink on short-haul flights, with M&S snacks being available for purchase on board.
It might make the inter-city TOCs rethink free food in First Class.

 

[AM9]

Does it say anywhere if the refund has to be in the format originally paid? Could VT et al. just give out £5 Foodbar vouchers to all first class customers for use on subsequent trips and count this as the refund?

Yes it does say that the refund must be by the method the consumer pays with unles the consumer agrees to an alternative.
Vouchers for use on future trips are not recognised as refunds or compensation (and never should be) if they oblige the recipient to make a further purchase.*

* an exception might be where a passenger has a season ticket for future travel.
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BA is abandoning free food and drink on short-haul flights, with M&S snacks being available for purchase on board.
It might make the inter-city TOCs rethink free food in First Class.

They are just following the race to the bottom led by the likes of Ryanair and Easy-Jet.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

BA is abandoning free food and drink on short-haul flights, with M&S snacks being available for purchase on board.
It might make the inter-city TOCs rethink free food in First Class.

I've not seen first class complementary food (other than light snacks) on any other European trains, so we already stand alone in that respect.

I suspect, as per the OP in this thread, the food is a major decision in a lot of people's choice of first class to travel, certainly when I have gone first class on VTEC it was purely down to the food option.

 

[extendedpaul]

i think I'm a typical First Class leisure traveller, always on the cheapest available advances and for each journey I make a decision whether the extra cost is justified.

I wouldn't pay a penny extra just for a nicer seat as I find standard seating perfectly adequate but I'm happy to pay £5- £10 extra per hour's travel time to be wined and dined. I would not be happy to get nothing or just a coffee and biscuit. So far I've been lucky but I will expect recompense if ever the expected catering service is not provided.

 

[swt_passenger]

An article in The Times about this suggested amongst other things (such as overcrowding) that compensation should be paid if an advertised buffet service wasn't available.

Perhaps a claim whenever the buffet staff shut early for "stocktaking"?

 

[Tim R-T-C]

An article in The Times about this suggested amongst other things (such as overcrowding) that compensation should be paid if an advertised buffet service wasn't available.

Perhaps a claim whenever the buffet staff shut early for "stocktaking"?

That should be avoidable by stating in the advertising that the buffet will be available between these certain stations.

However, this is an example of how complex these new regulations are going to be and my concern is that they could lead to erosion of services as it will be safer to just not offer a service than have to refund tickets if it is not available.

Or they might be able to get around it by simply by adding "subject to availability" to all adverts.

 

[Hadders]

An article in The Times about this suggested amongst other things (such as overcrowding) that compensation should be paid if an advertised buffet service wasn't available.

Perhaps a claim whenever the buffet staff shut early for "stocktaking"?

How ridiculous. If this is true then it'll end up with no service having an advertised buffet. I one happens to open during the journey it'll be a bonus.

The unintended consequence will be sales fall and buffets get removed as as passengers won't know of their existence.

 

[AM9]

How ridiculous. If this is true then it'll end up with no service having an advertised buffet. I one happens to open during the journey it'll be a bonus.

The unintended consequence will be sales fall and buffets get removed as as passengers won't know of their existence.

All this talk of the TOCs removing the inducement to 1st class because of claims for non-provision of normal buffet fare implies that:
1) buffet services are curtailed/withdrawn so often that the TOCs will take a massive hit in their profits owing to the clarification of consumer rights in this new SI
and/or
2) it is actually so difficult to provide a buffet service (free or otherwise) that they might stop advertising them or give up completely and install extra seating.

Can anybody here say just what percentage of advertised buffet services fail?

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are just following the race to the bottom led by the likes of Ryanair and Easy-Jet.

I actually prefer paid for food and drink on flights - it allows a better range and faster service. And if you don't want it, you don't pay for it.

I doubt anything will change in railway 1st - the concept is different.

 

[Greenback]

I'm the same as you, Neil. I'd rather choose whether to buy something or not bother. Besides which, the complimentary food I've had on Virgin West Coast has been , well, shall we say, not very nice?

As I see it, TOC's might be encouraged to ditch complimentary meals if they have to compensate for them not being available.

 

[me123]

Other than the occasional passenger on the WAG Express, I don't think there is any passenger who travels first class purely for the food and drink. Every first class passenger benefits from the transportation from their origin to their destination, the more spacious seating, first class lounges (often), etc. Unless a passenger contracts for a rail ticket on the express understanding that their reason for travelling is for the food and drink (other than where the food and drink is a very substantial part of the overall offering, as on the WAG Express), I think a 20% refund would be reasonable. In the case of a low value ticket (e.g. a £50 First AP from London to Manchester), this reflects the fact that the majority of the value of the ticket is to cover the transportation itself. In the case of a high value ticket (e.g. a £250-ish FOS from London to Manchester), this reflects the fact that the high value of the ticket primarily reflects the flexibility it offers and not the catering. No one could seriously argue that the level of catering offered in first class by Virgin Trains, either West Coast or East Coast, is worth more than £50!

My main point is that the relative importance of the catering option will vary considerably between different passengers. Some passengers don't care about food, but for some people it's a relatively very important part of the experience.

I can absolutely see a situation where a person is more likely to go for a FC ticket on a mealtime train than a mid-afternoon train, because getting their breakfast/lunch/dinner on board is relatively important, whereas having a cup of tea at 3pm isn't. In fact, I did this once. On a return to Newcastle, I went FC Southbound mostly because the £5 difference in fares was what I'd paying for breakfast on the train anyway, but on my return in mid-afternoon, the extra money wasn't worthwhile IMO. Although there's no denying that they get the other benefits (leg room, ambiance and so on), each individual's reasons for paying the FC supplement will be different.
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BA is abandoning free food and drink on short-haul flights, with M&S snacks being available for purchase on board.
It might make the inter-city TOCs rethink free food in First Class.

Don't agree.

BA offer a one-class service on domestic flights. The only incentive that they have in offering free food and drink is to attract passengers from other carriers, but:
1) Their business model is about attracting passengers onto higher yielding long haul flights, so they don't necessarily want to encourage domestic travel (although they'll happily take your money).
2) Domestic flights (max duration ~1h30) are a market where passengers are happy to do without food, with the likes of FR and EZY setting precedent, and they're winning the air race to London at the moment.

By contrast, the railways already offer a LCC service in standard class - i.e. buy on board catering (where catering is available). If they want to encourage people to pay the higher yielding FC fares, they have to offer some added value. They do this by offering bigger and more comfortable seats, more legroom, more space, a more luxurious environment, and by providing complimentary food and drink. As such, I don't think that this will encourage TOCs to remove FC catering - rather, I think that the railways might even use it to push their FC product to disgruntled BA frequent fliers. "Come travel VTEC, we still have a complimentary breakfast". (And, for all the criticisms of quality we see on here, it's infinitely better than BA's offering).

It's worth noting that BA's business class fares on short haul flights will continue to feature complimentary food and drink, although there's no business class on their domestic flights.

 

[Tetchytyke]

BA is abandoning free food and drink on short-haul flights, with M&S snacks being available for purchase on board.

Although some people have booked flights promising "complimentary snacks and drinks" before the change. BA are trying to claim publicly that because the service was complimentary it wasn't included in the ticket price, but privately they are sticking enough Avios into someone's account to buy a drink and a sandwich if they complain.

There won't be a test case because no TOC would be daft enough to allow it to get that far. If you complain about the lack of catering you'll get a £10 voucher and be sent on your way.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Just looked at my TOC's briefing about it, and they're of the opinion that there's no entitlement to compensation/partial refund if freebies aren't provided (e.g. if an HST subbed for a Meridian on an EMT service, you wouldn't be entitled to anything due to the lack of sockets), but would be where you've paid for an additional service (e.g. a Weekend First upgrade bought in advance, with First Class subsequently declassified for some reason).

 

[maniacmartin]

I would prefer to get what I paid for

 

[BestWestern]

An article in The Times about this suggested amongst other things (such as overcrowding) that compensation should be paid if an advertised buffet service wasn't available.

Perhaps a claim whenever the buffet staff shut early for "stocktaking"?

Could this be applied to the dreaded 'at seat trolley service' too? If the trolley fails to make it into your particular carriage and past your seat, then the advertised facility was not available?!

To pick up on earlier post as well, how does this stand in relation to seat reservations? Whether 'mandatory' on an Advance ticket, or booked in addition to a walk up fare, if they aren't provided that's a clear breach, surely? I could see that being significantly more of an issue than the FC catering scenario to be honest; a trainful of Advance ticket holders all getting wind of refunds due could be very expensive!

 

[infobleep]

I've not seen first class complementary food (other than light snacks) on any other European trains, so we already stand alone in that respect.

I suspect, as per the OP in this thread, the food is a major decision in a lot of people's choice of first class to travel, certainly when I have gone first class on VTEC it was purely down to the food option.

I once travelled first class as it wasn't a great deal more and had I purchased the same amount of food on board and paid for WiFi, it would have cost me more!

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i think I'm a typical First Class leisure traveller, always on the cheapest available advances and for each journey I make a decision whether the extra cost is justified.

I wouldn't pay a penny extra just for a nicer seat as I find standard seating perfectly adequate but I'm happy to pay £5- £10 extra per hour's travel time to be wined and dined. I would not be happy to get nothing or just a coffee and biscuit. So far I've been lucky but I will expect recompense if ever the expected catering service is not provided.

I wouldn't travel first class at the weekend as I don't think the cost is any less for advanced tickets and you don't get the same standard of catering service.

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[Bletchleyite]

I certainly think it is part of the value proposition. It would only be genuinely complimentary if you didn't know you were getting it until onboard. Really it is included in the price.
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Could this be applied to the dreaded 'at seat trolley service' too? If the trolley fails to make it into your particular carriage and past your seat, then the advertised facility was not available?!

I'm sure I've had RTVs from VT due to non provision of a buffet facility, though it was ages ago.

To pick up on earlier post as well, how does this stand in relation to seat reservations? Whether 'mandatory' on an Advance ticket, or booked in addition to a walk up fare, if they aren't provided that's a clear breach, surely? I could see that being significantly more of an issue than the FC catering scenario to be honest; a trainful of Advance ticket holders all getting wind of refunds due could be very expensive!

There is already something for that - a partial refund is due if a passenger reserved a seat and cannot get one.

 

[dcsprior]

I certainly think it is part of the value proposition. It would only be genuinely complimentary if you didn't know you were getting it until onboard. Really it is included in the price.
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I'm sure I've had RTVs from VT due to non provision of a buffet facility, though it was ages ago.



There is already something for that - a partial refund is due if a passenger reserved a seat and cannot get one.

Though not if you don't get the specific seat or type of seat or number of seats together as you've booked. For instance, the key benefit of 1st class for some passengers will be the ability to book an individual seat; or a group of 4 may book seats together - at present these customers could fail to receive the entirety of what they felt they were paying for, but the current compensation rules would not give them anything back.

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[sheff1]

Other than the occasional passenger on the WAG Express, I don't think there is any passenger who travels first class purely for the food and drink.

You might not think so, but is a fact that some passengers buy a First Advance on the Saturday morning EMT breakfast trains to London purely for the food. The difference in price from a Standard advance is often only £6/7 pounds which is not a bad amount for the breakfast. If no breakfast is provided I would expect the passengers to get the £6/7 refunded.

What should happen when the First Advance is cheaper than the Standard Advance (which happens occasionally) is another matter all together !

I've not seen first class complementary food (other than light snacks) on any other European trains, so we already stand alone in that respect.

Perhaps VTEC should do away with the complimentary offer and introduce a paid for restaurant service ..... available also to Standard passengers if there is room ........

 

[infobleep]

You might not think so, but is a fact that some passengers buy a First Advance on the Saturday morning EMT breakfast trains to London purely for the food. The difference in price from a Standard advance is often only £6/7 pounds which is not a bad amount for the breakfast. If no breakfast is provided I would expect the passengers to get the £6/7 refunded.

What should happen when the First Advance is cheaper than the Standard Advance (which happens occasionally) is another matter all together !

Perhaps you pay then the difference

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[Deerfold]

You might not think so, but is a fact that some passengers buy a First Advance on the Saturday morning EMT breakfast trains to London purely for the food. The difference in price from a Standard advance is often only £6/7 pounds which is not a bad amount for the breakfast. If no breakfast is provided I would expect the passengers to get the £6/7 refunded.

And do you need to work out which Standard Advances were available when the passenger bought their 1st Advance?