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NPR - the shambles continues

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quantinghome

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Government doesn't know how derided Integrated Rail Plan 'will work on the ground', Transport minister admits | Yorkshire Post

Baroness Vere, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Department for Transport, told a House of Lords debate she was unable to answer questions from cross-party peers about “what capacity will be provided for whom and when” because “we do not know that now”.

Isn't this the first thing you do when planning transport? You determine what capacity you need to provide, and then you come up with options for delivering it.
 
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A0wen

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Government doesn't know how derided Integrated Rail Plan 'will work on the ground', Transport minister admits | Yorkshire Post



Isn't this the first thing you do when planning transport? You determine what capacity you need to provide, and then you come up with options for delivering it.

At a high level there will be aspirational improvements e.g. reduce journey time or increase capacity in "x" area, but at this point I wouldn't expect hard commitments - that's the point of the next phase which will identify detailed options and the pros / cons / outcomes of each.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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At a high level there will be aspirational improvements e.g. reduce journey time or increase capacity in "x" area, but at this point I wouldn't expect hard commitments - that's the point of the next phase which will identify detailed options and the pros / cons / outcomes of each.
Indeed thats why they given themselves decades to deliver it as well so they've got nothing to be held account for.
 

quantinghome

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Well what do you think is a realistic timeline for delivering such changes?
How long has it taken for the Lower Thames Crossing to go from initial concept to spades about to go in the ground?
 
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A0wen

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How long has it taken for the Lower Thames Crossing to go from initial concept to spades about to go in the ground?

First proposed as far back as 1989. Serious proposals around 2010 route finally agreed 2017 amended by Highways England in 2020 and planning first submitted in late 2020, subsequently withdrawn and now needs to be resubmitted.

It's nowhere near "spades in the ground".

 

WatcherZero

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Considering the government didnt even do a cost benefit analysis of their alternative package to TfTN's costed proposal before choosing it its not surprising.
 

A0wen

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Considering the government didnt even do a cost benefit analysis of their alternative package to TfTN's costed proposal before choosing it its not surprising.

Not sure how good TFTN's costings were - I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were somewhat optimistic.
 

WatcherZero

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Government reused TfTN's individual scheme costings, they just didnt calculate the effects of their package as a whole (i.e. what effect doing X has on Y and Z) and do a side by side comparison of it to the TfTN package. So the potential is some schemes wont synergize and you will be doing 2x the work for the same benefit, while other better synergizing ones where for example one scheme removing a bottleneck means more frequent services could be run to take advantage of a line speed improvement elsewhere were unknowingly omitted.
 

quantinghome

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A write-up in New Civil Engineer by William Barter:

Why the Integrated Rail Plan claims are dubious at best | New Civil Engineer

It's paywalled so here is the article in full. I have put the final paragraph in bold as it's an important point.

Why the Integrated Rail Plan claims are dubious at best​

14 DEC, 2021 BY WILLIAM BARTER

No doubt the Integrated Rail Plan will please some people. Birmingham – Nottingham and London – Nottingham high speed services are new, and the journey times impressive. However, Peter in Leeds has clearly been robbed to pay Paul in Nottingham. For an allegedly Integrated Rail Plan to take services between London and the biggest financial centre outside London, and just say “we’ll have a think about this later”, is farcical, and only puts off the inevitable as there is no easy answer. Improved journey times by way of an “upgraded” East Coast Main Line to Leeds compare poorly with HS2’s saving of 38 minutes against the best current timing, and 55 minutes against typical times.

WIlliam-Barter-2-295x300.jpg

William Barter is an independent rail consultant

Even so, the IRP claims are dubious at best - saving 20 minutes on journeys on the ECML is pure fantasy. It takes only a moment in Excel to derive a rule of thumb that, compared with running at 125mph, 140mph saves a minute every 20 miles. So even if trains already ran flat out all the way to Leeds, less than 10 minutes could be gained, and where the ECML does not permit 125mph now, the reasons are very solid, the solutions very expensive. So in practice the saving is hardly likely to be half that, while “easing pinchpoints” will not conceivably contribute the other 15 minutes. All the likely works were rejected by the SRA over 20 years ago (when Virgin bid for the East Coast franchise by proposing a – guess what – new high speed line to avoid them) as too difficult, expensive and disruptive.
The IRP seems oblivious to the capacity sink-hole of mixing fast and slow trains on the same tracks, instead focusing on headline journey times, something for which it criticises HS2. One train per day from Newcastle to London reaches Kings Cross in 156 minutes non stop, but even if getting that down to Shapps’ 145 minutes is enough of a stretch, such a train, unless it is to devastate slower services, could not be pathed as anything other than a once-a-day flyer. The suggested time of 148 minutes for a ‘stopping’ service from Newcastle, being only 3 minutes slower than the claimed non-stop time, allows for only one stop, whereas today’s trains make up to seven intermediate calls – what is to happen to those?
HS2’s time by comparison would be offered twice an hour, every hour of the day, capturing the end-to-end business whilst in their absence South of York, replacement services could actually increase the service levels at intermediate stations – quite the reverse of the IRP’s assertion that these intermediate stations would suffer, which seems to me to be devoid of logic. Given how shamefully dilatory the DfT has been over released capacity services after Phase 1/2A of HS2, it is difficult to see that any analysis exists to support this contention.
The HS2 route to London also offers opportunities that the ECML does not, such as the call at Birmingham Interchange to serve the area South of Birmingham, and at Old Oak Common for the Thames Valley and Heathrow. However fast the ECML might be to London, it does not provide these opportunities at all.
For Sheffield, HS2’s time from Euston would be 86 minutes, with stops at East Midlands Hub (including extra time to detach a portion for Leeds or York) and Chesterfield. The IRP states that this time can be matched with upgraded classic lines from East Midlands Parkway. But taking known HS2 times, a little new modelling, and the best current times on the classic network calling at East Midlands Parkway, Derby and Chesterfield, the time would be 94 minutes – is it credible that any ‘upgrade’ could knock eight more minutes off the run from East Midlands to Sheffield? Chris Grayling cancelled Midland Main Line electrification on the basis that it would only save 1 minute compared with bi-modes. The journey times quoted to Nottingham and Sheffield rely on more heroic assumptions as to the potential of ‘upgrades’ (a word flashed around as if upgrading a railway meant just downloading a bit of software), even without asking if they should call at Birmingham Interchange (which they should).

One big opportunity of the Eastern leg has gone unmentioned. Journey opportunities by train between the South Midlands and Yorkshire and the North East are poor now, mostly involving driving much of the way, and even so are uncompetitive with car overall. Meanwhile the M1 and M18 are packed. Both Birmingham Interchange and East Midlands Hub would have provided railheads fed by local services for fast trains to Leeds and York, but the IRP offers no such equivalent.
There is no indication of a service specification in the IRP, but if, over the distances involved, you can’t run half hourly to Nottingham from each of Birmingham and London, then it’s not worth running at all. That means that the Nottingham trains have to be assumed to replace the Leeds services at Curzon Street, whilst at Euston the Nottingham and Sheffield trains, on top of the 11 trains per hour of the Birmingham and NW leg services, bring the total to 15tph. That’s within the 16 trains per hour capability of the 10 platform station, but implies that only one more train could be added, whereas in the HS2 plans Leeds would have had three trains per hour and Newcastle, two. So whatever the outcome of the £100M think-piece about Leeds, Paul has not just robbed Peter, but stands in the way of making up his losses in the future.
Some commentators have in the past decried HS2 as a “grand projet”. This country is not littered with grand projets that we wish we hadn’t built. It is, however, infested with descoped projects that have had to be expensively reworked within a few years of completion. The IRP is set fair to exacerbate that infestation.
 

BayPaul

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Perhaps I'm an optimist, but I don't think the IRP is too bad, in the long term. On the plus side, it means that London - Manchester is almost certain to be completed, and it also goes a good way towards working out what the solution is for integrating NPR and HS2 in Manchester and Liverpool. Compared to the original HS2 plans, it also has a much better solution for Derby and Nottingham, and even if the times to Sheffield in particular are a bit ambitious, more realistic times are still an improvement on what we have today. The major step forward, though, is that it sets out the position to build both (the reduced) HS2 and the (reduced) NPR - previously NPR didn't have much commitment.
So, the downside of the IRP - obviously HS2 not going to Leeds and the NE. In my expectation, the next few years will involve a lot of indecision and studies and so forth around whether it is possible to upgrade the ECML, and eventually all will agree that its cheaper, easier and more efficient to finish the eastern arm of HS2 to Leeds. By that point we really won't have lost very much - HS2 would always have been built in stages, so starting the Eastern arm a few years later probably won't make too much difference, the consultation work on the ECML won't be too expensive in the grand scheme of things, and might even deliver some benefits that are useful anyway. Plans for Leeds station will probably need a further revision, but they would have needed one anyway to incorporate NPR and HS2.

It would have been great to have IRP commit to building the full HS2 Y, and building NPR, and maybe also building other stuff as well, but that was never going to be realistic, and I would much rather have this than keep on kicking the can further down the road.
 

Taunton

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Government doesn't know how derided Integrated Rail Plan 'will work on the ground', Transport minister admits | Yorkshire Post



Isn't this the first thing you do when planning transport? You determine what capacity you need to provide, and then you come up with options for delivering it.
As one with an actual qualification in this, you start by assessing demand. Not as simple as it sounds, because there are a lot of variables go into even that. Only when you have what that likely demand might be, and the reasons for it, can you then look at capacity required.

A real failure of this process on the railway nowadays is losing the ability to identify the demand across the day/week/season. This regularly comes up with providing the same frequency and formation at 5am than at 5pm. Operators state this is because it's easier to run things this way, which though it might be true coming off the depot at 5am, is not when people at 5pm, having paid, cannot even get in.

Interestingly road transport planners, because they are not dominated by the operators of the vehicles, which is up to individuals, are much better at it than railways are.
 

quantinghome

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...but that was never going to be realistic...
And therein lies our problem. Building a mere 400 miles of new railway line should not be unrealistic for a country with our resources. It should be the bare minimum ambition.

I agree with your view that when the studies are done, hopefully the IRP will be substantially revised. But then aren't the studies just kicking the can down the road? Also, the capacity on HS2 previously allocated to Leeds and Newcastle will now be spent on direct services to Derby and Nottingham, so there's now no capacity to extend to Leeds.

For Derby and Nottingham, any improvement in journeys to London will be offset by the removal of any prospect of a local metro rail network, and as William Barter points out, it's robbing Peter to pay Paul.
 

BayPaul

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And therein lies our problem. Building a mere 400 miles of new railway line should not be unrealistic for a country with our resources. It should be the bare minimum ambition.

I agree with your view that when the studies are done, hopefully the IRP will be substantially revised. But then aren't the studies just kicking the can down the road? Also, the capacity on HS2 previously allocated to Leeds and Newcastle will now be spent on direct services to Derby and Nottingham, so there's now no capacity to extend to Leeds.

For Derby and Nottingham, any improvement in journeys to London will be offset by the removal of any prospect of a local metro rail network, and as William Barter points out, it's robbing Peter to pay Paul.
It'll still probably be built, just in phases rather than in one go. Not ideal, but not the end of the world to kick the can a bit.

The paths as far as I make it would still be achievable - for example: 3x Birmingham, 3x Manchester, 3x Leeds, 2x Liverpool (one with a portion to Lancaster, one with a portion to Macclesfield), 2x Scotland, 2x Newcastle, 2x Sheffield + Nottingham portions = 17 trains per hour out of Euston. I admit that this is less capacity to the East Midlands than in the current IRP, but it is just an example, and it would, for example, be possible to portion work a couple of the Leeds or Newcastle services if necessary.

Did Derby and Nottingham have a prospect of a local metro rail network. I agree that having one would make a lot of sense, but I don't think it would necessarily have happened under the original HS2 plans.
 

deltic

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Interestingly road transport planners, because they are not dominated by the operators of the vehicles, which is up to individuals, are much better at it than railways are.

Not sure many TOCs have much of a say on investment in the rail network, certainly not on HS2 or the IRP
 

quantinghome

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Did Derby and Nottingham have a prospect of a local metro rail network. I agree that having one would make a lot of sense, but I don't think it would necessarily have happened under the original HS2 plans.
One of the biggest problems with HS2's plans was the failure to make explicit the principal benefit, that of freeing up existing lines. This was left to local city regions to pick up. Which East Midlands did:

1640103343236.png
Revealed: £2.7bn transport plan to revolutionise Nottingham’s links to HS2 hub station at Toton - Transport Nottingham

With HS2 trains needing to use the local rail network to access both Derby and Nottingham, any chance of a local metro service is scuppered.
 

Glenn1969

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One of the biggest problems with HS2's plans was the failure to make explicit the principal benefit, that of freeing up existing lines. This was left to local city regions to pick up. Which East Midlands did:

View attachment 107396
Revealed: £2.7bn transport plan to revolutionise Nottingham’s links to HS2 hub station at Toton - Transport Nottingham

With HS2 trains needing to use the local rail network to access both Derby and Nottingham, any chance of a local metro service is scuppered.
As it is in West Yorkshire due to the IRP leaving Ravensthorpe to Leeds as a 2 track railway. Where exactly are any additional services going to fit?
 

quantinghome

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As it is in West Yorkshire due to the IRP leaving Ravensthorpe to Leeds as a 2 track railway. Where exactly are any additional services going to fit?
Exactly. They can't fit. IRP is basically saying no more new local services.

I strongly suspect the IRP will disappear as rapidly as the 2007 white paper "Delivering a Sustainable Railway" which proposed no electrification and said that the future was biodiesel.
 

Meerkat

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For Derby and Nottingham, any improvement in journeys to London will be offset by the removal of any prospect of a local metro rail network
Wasn't it the fact that the local metro network was totally unfunded pie in the sky stuff that killed Toton off?
 

chiltern trev

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A real failure of this process on the railway nowadays is losing the ability to identify the demand across the day/week/season. This regularly comes up with providing the same frequency and formation at 5am than at 5pm. Operators state this is because it's easier to run things this way, which though it might be true coming off the depot at 5am, is not when people at 5pm, having paid, cannot even get in.

I commuted on Chiltern Railways years ago.

By not having a one size fits all fleet but a variety's of sizes - 2 car, 3 car and 4 car units - which were combined together in various combinations from 2 to 8 car at that time thus matching passenger demand. And counting passengers arriving and departing Marylebone for each train and adjusting train length according - sometimes taking out or adding a stop to remove demand from a full train and add it to an emptier train. Thus what was ostensibly ba regular type service pattern would vary by up to a few minutes as stops were moved around be services.

Result was getting a seat was very high.
 

Meerkat

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I commuted on Chiltern Railways years ago.

By not having a one size fits all fleet but a variety's of sizes - 2 car, 3 car and 4 car units - which were combined together in various combinations from 2 to 8 car at that time thus matching passenger demand. And counting passengers arriving and departing Marylebone for each train and adjusting train length according - sometimes taking out or adding a stop to remove demand from a full train and add it to an emptier train. Thus what was ostensibly ba regular type service pattern would vary by up to a few minutes as stops were moved around be services.

Result was getting a seat was very high.
But you didnt have a safety competent person in each unit so that seat was at the cost of nearly dying every trip....
 

quantinghome

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Wasn't it the fact that the local metro network was totally unfunded pie in the sky stuff that killed Toton off?
No. What killed Toton off was killing off HS2's eastern leg.

Unfunded? Well of course it was unfunded. It's decades away, no local government organisation can self-fund this kind of thing, and funding approval is only given when you've got a detailed plan together. So saying it's unfunded is true, but a bit meaningless.

Pie in the sky? Absolutely not. It looks like a perfectly sensible network for the size of conurbation.
 

Glenn1969

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No. What killed Toton off was killing off HS2's eastern leg.

Unfunded? Well of course it was unfunded. It's decades away, no local government organisation can self-fund this kind of thing, and funding approval is only given when you've got a detailed plan together. So saying it's unfunded is true, but a bit meaningless.

Pie in the sky? Absolutely not. It looks like a perfectly sensible network for the size of conurbation.
Think the point of this is these plans were never going to be funded. Because Sunak has decided we need to keep spending to almost below minimum levels because of how much they have added to the deficit in a pandemic that has no end date at the moment
 

Meerkat

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No. What killed Toton off was killing off HS2's eastern leg.

Unfunded? Well of course it was unfunded. It's decades away, no local government organisation can self-fund this kind of thing, and funding approval is only given when you've got a detailed plan together. So saying it's unfunded is true, but a bit meaningless.

Pie in the sky? Absolutely not. It looks like a perfectly sensible network for the size of conurbation.
It was required for Toton to make sense, but unfunded. ie to build HS2 Eastern leg was actually even more expensive than it was pretended, so made even less sense.
 

quantinghome

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Think the point of this is these plans were never going to be funded. Because Sunak has decided we need to keep spending to almost below minimum levels because of how much they have added to the deficit in a pandemic that has no end date at the moment
We're talking about a long term rail infrastructure strategy for a conurbation. These sorts of plans are measured over decades. The pandemic is a short term issue which should have no bearing on long term transport plans, even if it may push the dates back.

A lack of investment money now doesn't mean we shouldn't plan for the long term. Take the motorway network. It had been planned for a long time. Post-war austerity delayed the plans, but didn't stop the post-war government passing the necessary legislation and developing their plans, even though they knew they didn't have the money to do it right then and there. Imagine if the post-war government had said "we've got no money so we're not going to bother with motorways".

That's another fundamental failing here. We need a long term plan agreed by all political parties, then we build it as the funding becomes available.
 

Meerkat

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We're talking about a long term rail infrastructure strategy for a conurbation. These sorts of plans are measured over decades. The pandemic is a short term issue which should have no bearing on long term transport plans, even if it may push the dates back.

A lack of investment money now doesn't mean we shouldn't plan for the long term. Take the motorway network. It had been planned for a long time. Post-war austerity delayed the plans, but didn't stop the post-war government passing the necessary legislation and developing their plans, even though they knew they didn't have the money to do it right then and there. Imagine if the post-war government had said "we've got no money so we're not going to bother with motorways".

That's another fundamental failing here. We need a long term plan agreed by all political parties, then we build it as the funding becomes available.
A pandemic that may (or may not) have prompted a huge change in travel patterns shouldnt have any bearing on long term transport plans?
So we should keep planning for a huge overload into London commuter terminals still?
 

quantinghome

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It was required for Toton to make sense, but unfunded. ie to build HS2 Eastern leg was actually even more expensive than it was pretended, so made even less sense.
You're seeing all this investment merely as a cost to be borne, not a benefit to be built.

And you're looking at it the wrong way round. Toton was a necessary precondition to free up local network capacity in order for a local metro network to exist.

A pandemic that may (or may not) have prompted a huge change in travel patterns shouldnt have any bearing on long term transport plans?
So we should keep planning for a huge overload into London commuter terminals still?
Well exactly, we just don't know what the effects will be in the long term. It's far too early to tell what commuter patterns will be like in 2 years, let alone 10 or 20. So push the plans' development back a few years. But don't just cancel them. That would be incredibly shortsighted.
 

Meerkat

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You're seeing all this investment merely as a cost to be borne, not a benefit to be built.

And you're looking at it the wrong way round. Toton was a necessary precondition to free up local network capacity in order for a local metro network to exist.
err, that’s what a Business case is, and the costs were soaring even without funding a significant amount of metro and roadworks.
Nope. Toton couldn’t be built without the metro, otherwise the environmental impact would be appalling.

But don't just cancel them. That would be incredibly shortsighted.
That’s even worse. The whole eastern leg would be put on hold, adding many years before any benefits are gained. Whereas this way the benefits of HS2 to the East Midlands will be felt sooner (and better)
 

matacaster

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But you didnt have a safety competent person in each unit so that seat was at the cost of nearly dying every trip....
Can you advise how many people died as a result of this lack of safety competent person?
 

The Ham

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A pandemic that may (or may not) have prompted a huge change in travel patterns shouldnt have any bearing on long term transport plans?
So we should keep planning for a huge overload into London commuter terminals still?

It depends on what you use the transport for.

For instance increasing capacity on long distance (mostly leisure travel), such as HS2 would probably be worth getting on with.

Conversely something aimed at commuting such as travel from outer London to inner London probably can be paused for a while until things have settled down again.

However there's a level of complication, in that with an aging population and a it's likely that we've seen a number retire earlier than would be the case (likely most who were planning to retire by 2023 would have done so post furlough with many planning to retire by 2026 would have given it at least serious thought).

The consequences of that are difficult to guess, wage rises are likely with fewer staff, especially given that it's now harder to recruit staff from overseas. For some that will be a good thing, however it could also apply pressure to inflation which may cause issues for those on fixed incomes.

However some inflation would also mean that building infrastructure could also be better done sooner rather than later, especially if the interest on any loans are lower than the rate of inflation.

However it brings us back to the point that there's no clear plan on what we're doing with regards to transport.

Currently it appears to be moving back towards more and more road transport, which is likely to only end up with more and more congested roads.
 
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