I have recently applied for a season ticket changeover under Condition 41 of the NRCoT and I'm a little concerned about the calculation of the additional amount due that is going to come back based on what has happened at the ticket office, and also recent correspondence with (the now defunct) London Midland, London Travelwatch and Rail Delivery Group.
I bought an annual season ticket between Bletchley and London Euston last year for £4,348. I want to change the season ticket to cover Bletchley to London Euston + Zones 1-6. The 2017 cost of that annual season ticket is £5,296. The changed-over ticket would be valid for 135 days.
When I handed in the application form I was asked to complete a refund application to accompany the season ticket change over form. I queried this, as the new ticket is more expensive than the old one. I thought I would just be paying the difference (as implied by Condition 41.1) rather than having any refund. The ticket office wanted credit card details entered on the form, which implies an intention to actually refund me money. A member of staff said the only way to do things would be to refund the old season ticket first.
The ticket office staff also said I could keep my old season ticket in the meantime as the new one would not be ready for a few days. I thought I had to hand the old one in. The ticket office staff said they could not refund oyster payments made for the London Underground journeys made whilst the new ticket was being calculated and prepared over the next few days. They did say they could refund paper tickets for the journey. I agreed to leave my season ticket with the station and purchase full journey paper tickets to be refunded in due course.
I was under the impression (from London Northwestern Railway's Passenger Charter and the National Rail Website - http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46571.aspx#Changeover) that the calculation of the additional charge would be done on a pro-rata basis. I make the additional amount due as:
Old Ticket : £4348 / 365 x 135 days = £1,608.17
New Ticket: £5,296 / 365 x 135 days = £1,958.80
Charge to pay: £350.63
My concern is that the station are planning to refund the old ticket under Condition 40 and then sell me a new one for the 135 day period, rather than do a pro-rata calculation. This would involve both calculations being done on the basis of combining smaller tickets to get the amounts due. I make this to be approximately (as I don't have all right ticket prices and might have misunderstood the process):
Old ticket used: £3,183.77
Credit left: £1,164.23
New Ticket: £1,929.23
Amount to Pay: £765
It is not just the refund form / comments at the ticket office that give me cause for concern. I have exchanged correspondence with London Midland, London Travelwatch and Rail Delivery Group who are all stating that season ticket changeover calculations are not done pro rata. The correspondence focussed on refunds rather than additional amounts to pay. I've put some extracts of the responses I have received below:
London Midland:
"You are correct that it [Condition 41.3] states based on the number of days validity. When we were drafting the revised NRCoT this was the wording chosen as it is simpler than explaining the full mechanics. The attachment you sent [the National Rail staff instructions from July 2015 on changeovers that was posted on another thread in this forum] is two years old and out of date. You get the beneficial discount implicitly in the replacement ticket, if you pro-rated the refund it (sic) you’d get it twice."
London Travelwatch:
"The method of calculating a refund is correct as advised by [London Midland]. I realise this will seem unfair as to a passenger an annual season ticket is bought for a year and, therefore, it seems sensible the daily cost should be divided by 365. However, this isn’t the case and the method is outlined in the National Rail Conditions of Travel 40.3. As it often appears to passengers they don’t receive as much as they expect it’s helpful to remember that the cost of an annual season ticket is based on 40 x cost of a weekly ticket and a refund is based on the cost of the travel used plus an administration fee."
Having reiterated this was a changeover under Condition 41 where there is definitely no administration fee payable, which was accepted by London Travelwatch, they said:
"The calculation of a changeover ticket is as already advised. If you were to request one it would be based on the date it’s submitted."
Rail Delivery Group:
"Thanks for your response about your query with us.
Once again, I was sorry for time taken to respond; please accept my apologies for the delay.
I've looked into this for you and an answer to this question will depend on the following:
There are 3 opportunities a year for the rail industry to amend fares (called Fares Setting Rounds) and are January – May, May – September and September – January. January is the main Fares Setting Round and the time when regulated fares (such as Season Tickets) are changed.
So, using above example based on the fares in October, I purchase an Annual Season Ticket in December 2017, it will cost £1200. In January 2018, the fare of a 7-Day is increased to £32, and in late January 2018 I move home and no longer need the original Season Ticket, the changeover credit that I receive will be calculated as follows:
Used days since ticket start 66 days = 9x7-Days + 3xAnytime Day Return (£300)
Original Season Ticket: £1200
Minus value used: (£300)
Credit towards new Season £900
I can then use the £900 credit towards a different Season Ticket on anything up to a new 12 month Annual Season Ticket.
If the new Ticket is less than £900, I will be entitled to a refund of any unused credit."
Having sent some more queries and referenced the LNR Passenger Charter and National Rail's website specifying pro-rata refunds:
"Once again, I was sorry for the time taken to respond to your query about refunds on Changeover Season Tickets.
I've looked into this again for you; and can confirm that refunds on Changeover Season Tickets are not calculated on pro-rata basis; or by dividing the cost of the ticket by 365 days. They are calculated based on the number of outward and return journeys on individual working days.
I understand that the information on the West Midlands Trains website is contradictory to the information available to us. May I recommend you to contact them directly, as they will be better placed to assist you with the information displayed on their website."
London Midland seemed to be implying that when the revised NRCoT were introduced in October 2016, there was a change in how these calculation were done. The words "pro-rata" have been removed from the relevant condition compared with the previous version of the NRCoC. But the reference to "days validity" makes me think there hasn't been a change. If there has been, then it seems to be a change that is detrimental to passengers. I might be better off on Oyster PAYG if there has been a change. If that is the case, then I'd want to abandon doing the changeover.
Please can anyone help with letting me know what the right calculation is for changeovers and if there has been a move away from pro-rata?
Many thanks
I bought an annual season ticket between Bletchley and London Euston last year for £4,348. I want to change the season ticket to cover Bletchley to London Euston + Zones 1-6. The 2017 cost of that annual season ticket is £5,296. The changed-over ticket would be valid for 135 days.
When I handed in the application form I was asked to complete a refund application to accompany the season ticket change over form. I queried this, as the new ticket is more expensive than the old one. I thought I would just be paying the difference (as implied by Condition 41.1) rather than having any refund. The ticket office wanted credit card details entered on the form, which implies an intention to actually refund me money. A member of staff said the only way to do things would be to refund the old season ticket first.
The ticket office staff also said I could keep my old season ticket in the meantime as the new one would not be ready for a few days. I thought I had to hand the old one in. The ticket office staff said they could not refund oyster payments made for the London Underground journeys made whilst the new ticket was being calculated and prepared over the next few days. They did say they could refund paper tickets for the journey. I agreed to leave my season ticket with the station and purchase full journey paper tickets to be refunded in due course.
I was under the impression (from London Northwestern Railway's Passenger Charter and the National Rail Website - http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46571.aspx#Changeover) that the calculation of the additional charge would be done on a pro-rata basis. I make the additional amount due as:
Old Ticket : £4348 / 365 x 135 days = £1,608.17
New Ticket: £5,296 / 365 x 135 days = £1,958.80
Charge to pay: £350.63
My concern is that the station are planning to refund the old ticket under Condition 40 and then sell me a new one for the 135 day period, rather than do a pro-rata calculation. This would involve both calculations being done on the basis of combining smaller tickets to get the amounts due. I make this to be approximately (as I don't have all right ticket prices and might have misunderstood the process):
Old ticket used: £3,183.77
Credit left: £1,164.23
New Ticket: £1,929.23
Amount to Pay: £765
It is not just the refund form / comments at the ticket office that give me cause for concern. I have exchanged correspondence with London Midland, London Travelwatch and Rail Delivery Group who are all stating that season ticket changeover calculations are not done pro rata. The correspondence focussed on refunds rather than additional amounts to pay. I've put some extracts of the responses I have received below:
London Midland:
"You are correct that it [Condition 41.3] states based on the number of days validity. When we were drafting the revised NRCoT this was the wording chosen as it is simpler than explaining the full mechanics. The attachment you sent [the National Rail staff instructions from July 2015 on changeovers that was posted on another thread in this forum] is two years old and out of date. You get the beneficial discount implicitly in the replacement ticket, if you pro-rated the refund it (sic) you’d get it twice."
London Travelwatch:
"The method of calculating a refund is correct as advised by [London Midland]. I realise this will seem unfair as to a passenger an annual season ticket is bought for a year and, therefore, it seems sensible the daily cost should be divided by 365. However, this isn’t the case and the method is outlined in the National Rail Conditions of Travel 40.3. As it often appears to passengers they don’t receive as much as they expect it’s helpful to remember that the cost of an annual season ticket is based on 40 x cost of a weekly ticket and a refund is based on the cost of the travel used plus an administration fee."
Having reiterated this was a changeover under Condition 41 where there is definitely no administration fee payable, which was accepted by London Travelwatch, they said:
"The calculation of a changeover ticket is as already advised. If you were to request one it would be based on the date it’s submitted."
Rail Delivery Group:
"Thanks for your response about your query with us.
Once again, I was sorry for time taken to respond; please accept my apologies for the delay.
I've looked into this for you and an answer to this question will depend on the following:
- The 7-Day Season Ticket rate for Bletchley to London Euston on 6 June 2017, and
- The date it was returned to original retailer for changeover
- Anytime Day Return, (£10)
- 7-Day (£30) and
- Period Season Ticket (1 calendar month and multiples thereof, £120).
There are 3 opportunities a year for the rail industry to amend fares (called Fares Setting Rounds) and are January – May, May – September and September – January. January is the main Fares Setting Round and the time when regulated fares (such as Season Tickets) are changed.
So, using above example based on the fares in October, I purchase an Annual Season Ticket in December 2017, it will cost £1200. In January 2018, the fare of a 7-Day is increased to £32, and in late January 2018 I move home and no longer need the original Season Ticket, the changeover credit that I receive will be calculated as follows:
Used days since ticket start 66 days = 9x7-Days + 3xAnytime Day Return (£300)
Original Season Ticket: £1200
Minus value used: (£300)
Credit towards new Season £900
I can then use the £900 credit towards a different Season Ticket on anything up to a new 12 month Annual Season Ticket.
If the new Ticket is less than £900, I will be entitled to a refund of any unused credit."
Having sent some more queries and referenced the LNR Passenger Charter and National Rail's website specifying pro-rata refunds:
"Once again, I was sorry for the time taken to respond to your query about refunds on Changeover Season Tickets.
I've looked into this again for you; and can confirm that refunds on Changeover Season Tickets are not calculated on pro-rata basis; or by dividing the cost of the ticket by 365 days. They are calculated based on the number of outward and return journeys on individual working days.
I understand that the information on the West Midlands Trains website is contradictory to the information available to us. May I recommend you to contact them directly, as they will be better placed to assist you with the information displayed on their website."
London Midland seemed to be implying that when the revised NRCoT were introduced in October 2016, there was a change in how these calculation were done. The words "pro-rata" have been removed from the relevant condition compared with the previous version of the NRCoC. But the reference to "days validity" makes me think there hasn't been a change. If there has been, then it seems to be a change that is detrimental to passengers. I might be better off on Oyster PAYG if there has been a change. If that is the case, then I'd want to abandon doing the changeover.
Please can anyone help with letting me know what the right calculation is for changeovers and if there has been a move away from pro-rata?
Many thanks
