NRG Easements New Section E

[OwlMan]

A new section E has been released by ATOC, with the following deletions and additions

Deleted Easements

25 Ticketholders travelling from Carlisle or Newcastle or stations south of
Carlisle or Newcastle to stations between Motherwell and Glasgow may
double back via Glasgow Central. This easement applies in both directions.

30260 Customers travelling between Loughborough and Tamworth may travel via
Derby. This easement applies in both directions.

700072 customers travelling from Colchester to London may not travel via the X22
bus service via Stansted Airport - this easement applies in both directions.

700124 Customers travelling from Manchester Piccadilly to Halifax, may not travel
via Huddersfield. This easement applies in both directions.

700188 Customers in possession of tickets routed 'Hatfld/albns bus' (fare route
code 00356) may not travel via London St Pancras. This easement applies
in both directions.


Added Eaements

700227 Customers travelling from Colne, Nelson, Brierfield, Burnley Central,
Burnley Barracks, Rose Grove, Hapton and Huncoat to Horwich Parkway in
possession of tickets routed 'Any Permitted' may not travel via Preston. This
easement applies in both directions.

700228 Customers travelling from Garswood, St Helens Central, Thatto Heath or
Eccleston Road via Liverpool Lime Street may travel via Huyton. This
easement applies in both directions.

700229 Customers travelling from/via Markinch to Dalgety Bay may not travel via
Inverkeithing. This easement applies in both directions.

700230 Customers travelling from Hutton Cranswick via Selby to York and beyond
may travel via Hull. This easement applies in both directions.

700231 Customers travelling from/to/via Runcorn via Warrington Bank Quay may
double back between Acton Bridge and Crewe. This easement applies in
both directions

700232 Customers travelling from/to/via Bristol Temple Meads via Chepstow may
double back between Severn Tunnel Junction and Newport. This easement
applies in both directions.

700233 Customers travelling from/to/via Bristol Parkway via Chepstow may double
back between Severn Tunnel Junction and Newport. This easement applies
in both directions.

 

[All Line Rover]

Well at least it's not all bad news for once!

 

[Zoe]

Ticketholders travelling from Carlisle or Newcastle or stations south of
Carlisle or Newcastle to stations between Motherwell and Glasgow may
double back via Glasgow Central. This easement applies in both directions.

What's the point of deleting this easement? Not many intercity services stop at Motherwell so how are you supposed to get there?

 

[LexyBoy]

What's the point of deleting this easement? Not many intercity services stop at Motherwell so how are you supposed to get there?

I would think it was deleted to stop loopholes (i.e. people travelling to Glasgow) rather than with any thought to people to whom the easement was intended to apply.

 

[Deerfold]

What's the point of deleting this easement? Not many intercity services stop at Motherwell so how are you supposed to get there?

Going via Glasgow is almost never the fastest way for Motherwell - Newcastle.

Except on a Sunday when it almost always is.

 

[Zoe]

Going via Glasgow is almost never the fastest way for Motherwell - Newcastle.

From Carlisle are they expecting everyone to go the long way round via Gretna?

 

[DavidL]

700228 Customers travelling from Garswood, St Helens Central, Thatto Heath or
Eccleston Park via Liverpool Lime Street may travel via Huyton. This
easement applies in both directions.

Hmm - interesting - I guess this is a result of the current works*?
* - said works incidentally allowed me to travel Huyton-Wigan non-stop via Parkside (?) Jct on Sunday, which was interesting - got a nice little snap of the disused Lowton station from train level

However, I wonder what this easement actually means in practice? What (additional) benefit/permission does this grant to passengers on an affected journey?

 

[Deerfold]

From Carlisle are they expecting everyone to go the long way round via Gretna?

Ah now Carlisle is different - it is often quicker from Carlisle to go via Glasgow.

Isn't it ATOC that's always going on about how people like to catch the fastest trains to their destination...

 

[calc7]

Well now they will have to buy a further ticket (with no period returns) to take that 'premium' route. :/

 

[All Line Rover]

What's the point of deleting this easement? Not many intercity services stop at Motherwell so how are you supposed to get there?

If it is perfectly reasonable to take that route, I don't think the deletion of an easement will suddenly mean that guards prevent customers travelling to Motherwell from taking that route.

 

[yorkie]

Isn't it ATOC that's always going on about how people like to catch the fastest trains to their destination...

Nope. ATOC make the claim that we all want to either take a direct train or the shortest route.

So, for a journey such as Poppleton to Sheffield, ATOC think people would rather take a Pacer via Pontefract Baghill, than use Cross Country, between York & Leeds.

ATOC can get away with such ludicrous claims because there is no-one who is going to stop them, no effective regulation, and insufficient checks carried out to ensure passengers interests are looked after.

 

[tony_mac]

Customers travelling from Garswood, St Helens Central, Thatto Heath or
Eccleston Road via Liverpool Lime Street may travel via Huyton. This
easement applies in both directions.

However, I wonder what this easement actually means in practice? What (additional) benefit/permission does this grant to passengers on an affected journey?

I can't see that it makes any sense, other than to fix some sort of software problem they are having.
Of course you can travel via Huyton, how else would you normally get to Lime St?

Maybe they meant it to say something else, or they are building a new station at Eccleston Road

700124 Customers travelling from Manchester Piccadilly to Halifax, may not travel
via Huddersfield. This easement applies in both directions.

That's interesting - they only added that fairly recently, I wonder why the change of heart.

 

[Zoe]

I've just had a look at the routing guide and the only route it shows from Carlisle to Motherwell is FK. So if you can't double back from Glasgow Central on this route and no route via Gretna is allowed then the result would seem to be that there are only a handful of trains each day that you can use to travel from Carlisle to Motherwell.

 

[Deerfold]

That's interesting - they only added that fairly recently, I wonder why the change of heart.

I think the maps have changed - you cannot find a mapped route between the two now.

 

[tony_mac]

I was going to suggest that, but it seemed a bit cynical.
sigh.

 

[IanXC]

700230 Customers travelling from Hutton Cranswick via Selby to York and beyond may travel via Hull. This easement applies in both directions.

And pray how does one travel from Hutton Cranswick via Selby to York without travelling via Hull?!

 

[b0b]

25 Ticketholders travelling from Carlisle or Newcastle or stations south of Carlisle or Newcastle to stations between Motherwell and Glasgow may double back via Glasgow Central. This easement applies in both directions.

This is a really bad deletion - it means coming from London to the Hamilton circle (this was one of my common journeys) you either are looking at the odd train that stops at Motherwell for the change, or changing say at Carlisle for a service that will stop at Motherwell, or obviously buying a London - Glasgow and then a Glasgow - Hamilton ticket to allow the most obvious and probably fastest journey; since there would be a doubleback through Newton.

In the old BR days I never had any issues staying on the WCML to Glasgow and coming back.

 

[Zoe]

This is a really bad deletion - it means coming from London to the Hamilton circle (this was one of my common journeys) you either are looking at the odd train that stops at Motherwell for the change, or changing say at Carlisle for a service that will stop at Motherwell, or obviously buying a London - Glasgow and then a Glasgow - Hamilton ticket to allow the most obvious and probably fastest journey; since there would be a doubleback through Newton.

It's even worse than it seems as there are only three trains per day from Carlisle to Motherwell. These are at 19:11, 20:25 and 21:18.

 

[John @ home]

Deleted Easements

700124 Customers travelling from Manchester Piccadilly to Halifax, may not travel via Huddersfield. This easement applies in both directions.

That's interesting - they only added that fairly recently, I wonder why the change of heart.

I think the maps have changed - you cannot find a mapped route between the two now.

My alternative suggestion is that negative Easement 700124 was ineffective because an Easement cannot disallow the shortest route.

Manchester Piccadilly to Halifax

Shortest Route: 36 miles

• Manchester Piccadilly
• Stalybridge
• Mossley (Manchester)
• Greenfield
• Marsden (Yorks)
• Slaithwaite
• Huddersfield
• Brighouse
• Halifax

Instead, the train companies have had another attempt at achieving their aim by introducing routed tickets.

NFM 05: Jan-May 2010
Manchester Stns - Halifax
Route Any Permitted. SDS 8.80, CDS 8.90 (B1), SDR 9.50, SOR 10.30, FNW 13.30 (NX). NT

NFM 11: Jan-May 2012
Manchester Stns - Halifax
Route Any Permitted. SDS 9.90, CDS 10.00 (B1), SDR 10.70, SOR 11.60, FNW 15.00 (NX). NT
Route Via Hebden Bridge. SDS 10.00, CDS 10.40 (B1), SDR 10.70, SOR 11.60, FNW 115.60 (NX). NT

But that hasn't worked either!

 

[b0b]

It's even worse than it seems as there are only three trains per day from Carlisle to Motherwell. These are at 19:11, 22:25 and 21:18.

It's been a while! That really means that Hamilton Circle/Newton/Cambuslang, maybe Rutherglen customers are really looking at paying for two tickets unless a via Glasgow route ticket appears. Seems pretty unfair.

 

[Deerfold]

My alternative suggestion is that negative Easement 700124 was ineffective because an Easement cannot disallow the shortest route.
Instead, the train companies have had another attempt at achieving their aim by introducing routed tickets.
But that hasn't worked either!

It's not the shortest route to Manchester Stations though is it?

Don't those fares encourage you to go via Huddersfield (if it's a valid route -and if it's not, I don't understand which other way you could go than via Hebden Bridge). I wonder whcih way you were expected to go with that easement in place.

 

[Nym]

And pray how does one travel from Hutton Cranswick via Selby to York without travelling via Hull?!

Using the curve at the stadium I forgot the name of that I have only ever known one passenger train use and this was a railtour?

Actually come to think of it, I initally thought that indicated needing to travel via Seamer but not involving Selby you can't do it since nothing does Cottingham - Hessle direct.

 

[IanXC]

Using the curve at the stadium I forgot the name of that I have only ever known one passenger train use and this was a railtour?

Actually come to think of it, I initally thought that indicated needing to travel via Seamer but not involving Selby you can't do it since nothing does Cottingham - Hessle direct.

Yup, the only service I've seen is a Christmas Shopper Railtour to Edinburgh.

I wonder why if there is some reason for this easement, why it only applies to Hutton Cranswick?

 

[John @ home]

Manchester Piccadilly to Halifax via Huddersfield

It's not the shortest route to Manchester Stations though is it?

If you go to the booking office at Manchester Piccadilly and ask for a ticket to Halifax, the ticket you are given forms a contract for carriage between Manchester Piccadilly and Halifax. It is valid by the shortest route between those two stations, "provided the correct fare has been paid to reflect any routeing indicated by the fares manual". For a ticket routed Any Permitted that's via Huddersfield. For a ticket routed Via Hebden Bridge it's by that route.

 

[34D]

For a ticket routed Any Permitted that's via Huddersfield. For a ticket routed Via Hebden Bridge it's by that route.

From your earlier post, via Hebden Bridge appears more expensive (for each ticket type) than the any permitted, suggesting to me that route Hebden Bridge would be valid via Huddersfield also.

Am I right in thinking that it was only March that the Easements list was previously updated?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Manchester Piccadilly to Halifax via Huddersfield
If you go to the booking office at Manchester Piccadilly and ask for a ticket to Halifax, the ticket you are given forms a contract for carriage between Manchester Piccadilly and Halifax. It is valid by the shortest route between those two stations, "provided the correct fare has been paid to reflect any routeing indicated by the fares manual". For a ticket routed Any Permitted that's via Huddersfield. For a ticket routed Via Hebden Bridge it's by that route.

I think we have had this discussion before, and I cannot find it as I am on my phone, but I think I said before that my opinion is that you are NOT free to choose any station you fancy from a group of stations in this manner. The shortest route from Manchester Stations to Halifax is from Manchester Victoria direct.

Incidentally the fares you quote above as the new Manchester - Halifax fares are incorrect. I think the fares you have are correct for the Rte Via Hebden Bridge fares, but the Rte Any Permitted fares are more expensive than both the Rte HBD fares and the relevant Manchester to Huddersfield fares. The brief we had said that the Any Permitted fare was for people wanting to travel via Huddersfield, and was priced accordingly. As a result the easement is irrelevant. The fares data uploaded however was incorrect, hence the fares you have being wrong. I'm sure the NFM has the incorrect data too, but will have to check. Ticket machines and websites will show the correct fares though.

 

[34D]

I think we have had this discussion before, and I cannot find it as I am on my phone, but I think I said before that my opinion is that you are NOT free to choose any station you fancy from a group of stations in this manner. The shortest route from Manchester Stations to Halifax is from Manchester Victoria direct.

But if one asks a clerk at Halifax for a ticket to Piccadilly, that is the basis of a contract, surely? Ditto someone at Piccadilly ticket office asking for a rail ticket to Halifax can hardly be expected to start their journey with a bus or tram journey. Hopefully issues such as this will disappear if/when TPE is merged back into the Northern franchise.

Incidentally the fares you quote above as the new Manchester - Halifax fares are incorrect. I think the fares you have are correct for the Rte Via Hebden Bridge fares, but the Rte Any Permitted fares are more expensive than both the Rte HBD fares and the relevant Manchester to Huddersfield fares. The brief we had said that the Any Permitted fare was for people wanting to travel via Huddersfield, and was priced accordingly. As a result the easement is irrelevant. The fares data uploaded however was incorrect, hence the fares you have being wrong. I'm sure the NFM has the incorrect data too, but will have to check. Ticket machines and websites will show the correct fares though.

This then covers off my earlier question. Hopefully NFM12 (due early May I imagine) will correct this information.