Off Peak confusion at Ticket Machines.

[Devils Advocat]

I suspect that this sort of subject has come up before...I have spent 10 minutes looking through posts but cant find anything
so apologies if it has !

My Wife and her daughter travelled from Prittlewell to Liverpool Street and return on a recent Saturday. From what I can see, the only
Day Return Ticket needed on a Saturday for this journey is a 'Super Off Peak Day Return'. However the ticket machine (on a Saturday) gave 3 options
including an 'Anytime Day Return'.

The Ticket office was busy and a train due in a few minutes. There was a lot of people milling around the Ticket Machine and under pressure and mindful of the regular
'make sure you have the right ticket for your journey' and 'Our Revenue Protection Officers make regular checks' etc My Wife opted for the all embracing 'Anytime Day Return'.
Only when she got home and I asked how much her tickets cost did it became apparent that she had overpaid nearly £20 for two peoples journeys, which presumably has gone
straight into Greater Anglias coffers.

My question is should GA have appropriate software to only offer the required fare on the day or should my wife just accept her mistake? She can afford it but some may not be able to
and it could put them off using the Railways ?

 

[yorkie]

Many machines are going towards journey planning modes, to counter this problem.

In theory, the cheaper fare should be excessed if it's ever bought in error; I agree that the threatening messages to have the right ticket result in some people overpaying.

It's worth writing to them and ask them if they would consider a refund of the difference; feel free to post a draft letter up here for proofreading if you like.

 

[Devils Advocat]

Thank You Yorkie.

I have had some correspondence with GA where they are asking for copies of Tickets and Railcards, Journey details etc 'in order to
look into any possible refund'.

I asked them to answer the original question which I had now asked twice: 'Why were they sold tickets far more expensive than the ones they needed?' I had not actually asked for a refund !

Machines with journey planning modes will probably be helpful but whilst the one ticket machine at Prittlewell was of the old red type, i checked out the Ticket Machines
at Southend Victoria which are relatively new but still offered up an unnecessary fare.

My concern is that GA are being at best 'passive' about correcting this overcharging (in this case nearly 70%). As you (IMO) rightly acknowledge some people overpay.

Do you know if GA will have access to the Ticket Machines inventory/log of tickets sold so they could possibly acknowledge how much they have benefited from this ?

 

[Haywain]

The problem here is that Anytime tickets are exactly that - available at and for use at anytime. Restricting their sale at times when most people don't need them would be ideal but the range of arcane discounts that exist would make that difficult for some. Having said that, it should not be beyond the wit of the railway and their suppliers to figure out a way of stopping them being sold at self-service machines when cheaper alternatives are available and there is no loss of flexibility at the lower fare.

 

[Hadders]

This is a particular problem at my local station.

At the weekend, despite the existence of Super Off Peak tickets valid on any train, the ticket machines displayed ine Anytime Day Return in the ost prominent position on the home screen of the TVM. A number of other fares that should never be sold at the weekend were also displayed on the home screen.

I complained to GTR and was fobbed off so I complained again. Some action has been taken but the last time I checked it's still not been completely sorted. Thing is, the TVMs do appear to be dynamic - as on a weekday between 09:00 and 09:30 some tickets are replaced by others as off-peak tickets become available.

I suspect passengers have been overcharged for years....

 

[Wallsendmag]

This is a particular problem at my local station.

At the weekend, despite the existence of Super Off Peak tickets valid on any train, the ticket machines displayed ine Anytime Day Return in the ost prominent position on the home screen of the TVM. A number of other fares that should never be sold at the weekend were also displayed on the home screen.

I complained to GTR and was fobbed off so I complained again. Some action has been taken but the last time I checked it's still not been completely sorted. Thing is, the TVMs do appear to be dynamic - as on a weekday between 09:00 and 09:30 some tickets are replaced by others as off-peak tickets become available.

I suspect passengers have been overcharged for years....

Oval will sort this all out but maybe not in a way you'll like

 

[Haywain]

Oval will sort this all out but maybe not in a way you'll like

It increasingly looks like Oval will be disadvantageous to those of us living a little further out from London, in terms of increased fares and increased time restrictions.

 

[Hadders]

Oval will sort this all out but maybe not in a way you'll like

It increasingly looks like Oval will be disadvantageous to those of us living a little further out from London, in terms of increased fares and increased time restrictions.

I have been warning about exactly this sort of thing for years….

GTR didn’t remove cheaper fares when contactless was extended to Welwyn Garden City, so I line in hope (perhaps misguided!)

 

[Haywain]

GTR didn’t remove cheaper fares when contactless was extended to Welwyn Garden City, so I line in hope (perhaps misguided!)

Similarly for Luton Airport Parkway, but my concern is that the situation will change when Oval is extended to Luton, especially having seen what has happened with fares for the Phase 1 stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Similarly for Luton Airport Parkway, but my concern is that the situation will change when Oval is extended to Luton, especially having seen what has happened with fares for the Phase 1 stations.

Some* will pay more due to reverting to a two step walk up fare pattern, but all walk up fares from Bletchley to Euston have been reduced in price slightly, not increased, presumably reflecting the restrictions changing. Off peak and Anytime day trippers will pay a bit less. So it's not all bad.

Restrictions are also much easier to understand.

* Evening trippers and Sunday day trippers.

 

[M28361M]

Greater Anglia's "Ticket Vending Machine Price Promise" may be relevant to the OP:-

In the unlikely event that you purchase a ticket from one of Greater Anglia's ticket vending machines (TVM’s) and then discover you could have bought a cheaper product for the identical journey, you may be entitled to a refund to the value of the difference in cost.

 

[Hadders]

Some* will pay more due to reverting to a two step walk up fare pattern, but all walk up fares from Bletchley to Euston have been reduced in price slightly, not increased, presumably reflecting the restrictions changing. Off peak and Anytime day trippers will pay a bit less. So it's not all bad.

Restrictions are also much easier to understand.

* Evening trippers and Sunday day trippers.

You’d do well to understand the pricing structure on GTR before saying things like this.

I strongly suspect everyone will end up paying significantly more at the weekend.

 

[Haywain]

So it's not all bad.

If you're getting later weekday morning arrivals in London, and losing Super Off Peak fares both on weekdays and weekends, I'd say it's pretty much all bad.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you're getting later weekday morning arrivals in London, and losing Super Off Peak fares both on weekdays and weekends, I'd say it's pretty much all bad.

It being simpler is a benefit. It's very much the way this Forum thinks (alongside things like MoneySavingExpert) to think niche money saving is a good thing but I don't think that - I think more widely than simply my own ability to save money by using heavily restricted tickets with esoteric restrictions.

The only thing I think is very bad about Oval* is the cross London paper/e-ticket fares having restrictions that apply each time you board a train because they were too bone idle to set up multiple restriction codes (see also the situation with LNR Super Off Peaks where they remain). This really needs fixing so contactless and paper work exactly the same in restriction terms. You can work around it by splitting but should not have to - by needing to do this I'm basically spending my time (or a Trainline/Trainsplit fee) doing the job of the person who should have set the restriction codes up properly.

But in terms of the thread title - off peak confusion at ticket machines - the Oval fares will CONSIDERABLY reduce this. There are Anytime Day Singles/Returns, there are Off Peak Day Singles/Returns with simple, memorable restrictions, and there's an Anytime and Off Peak Travelcard (though there is the one odd bit of complexity** that this doesn't have evening peak return restrictions despite this being possible). That's it. You couldn't get much simpler other than by binning Travelcards and Off Peaks entirely.

* Other than that I think it should have been a national project, not a TfL-centric one.
** LNR Super Off Peak Travelcards did have a restriction in the evening but they'd still need to open gatelines for intra-Zones journeys. I wonder if the decision not to restrict them was because it's a bit confusing to have a ticket that's partly valid, i.e. valid to pass the gateline and travel part of the journey but not all of it. It also leaves a mid-priced option in place for people daytripping to London wishing to return in the evening peak.

 

[Haywain]

It being simpler is a benefit. It's very much the way this Forum thinks (alongside things like MoneySaving Expert) to think niche money saving is a good thing but I don't think that - I think more widely than simply my own ability to save money by using heavily restricted tickets with esoteric restrictions.

Yes, I think we get that it's the way you think but ordinary people who can currently buy Super Off Peak returns to London for a relative pittance are not going to see the loss of those fares as a benefit just because the fares structure (which is largely irrelevant to those who only have a weekend day out) is 'simpler'. They will, quite rightly, see the change as a fares increase. By way of example, a Saturday day out from Harpenden to London, without underground, currently costs £11.30 against a weekday Off Peak day return without afternoon restrictions of £21.50. That suggests that a change of fares structure will lead to significantly more expensive fares for many people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I think we get that it's the way you think but ordinary people who can currently buy Super Off Peak returns to London for a relative pittance are not going to see the loss of those fares as a benefit just because the fares structure (which is largely irrelevant to those who only have a weekend day out) is 'simpler'. They will, quite rightly, see the change as a fares increase. By way of example, a Saturday day out from Harpenden to London, without underground, currently costs £11.30 against a weekday Off Peak day return without afternoon restrictions of £21.50. That suggests that a change of fares structure will lead to significantly more expensive fares for many people.

In that case it will, yes, that ticket is ridiculously cheap, a deeper discount than the LNR Super Off Peaks but not carrying Saturday restrictions. Perhaps that ticket should never have existed? It's totally out of kilter with pricing on other London commuter TOCs.

I suspect the Oval Off Peak Day Return fare will be somewhere in between as the LNR ones have been, perhaps £18-19 or so.

They'd also have the option of chucking some deep discount Advances in, I don't believe Oval prevents that. While I doubt many people buy them they do exist from Bletchley to Euston.

 

[yorkie]

In that case it will, yes, that ticket is ridiculously cheap, a deeper discount ...

You don't like tickets being affordable do you?

I don't really understand what this has got to do with the fundamental problem addressed in this thread; the appropriate fare should be made easily available, and when people accidentally buy an Off Peak and/or route restricted fare for a journey that requires a higher fare, this is rectifable by nothing more than the excess, but this is not made clear.

This means people overpay, to cover themselves. The fact some people are paying less than people who earn loads of money isn't really relevant and in any case it's a daft argument, as if the railway puts prices up, this just encourages people to go by car (or not travel at all).

You keep referring to "deep discounts" in various threads; at the risk of being deemed to be pendantic, a discount is a very specific concept in railway ticketing, and these fares are not in any way discounted by the correct definition, so I find these posts very grating. To me, it demonstrates a lack of understanding too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You don't like tickets being afforrdable do you?

I don't like tickets being complex. The biggest problem the railway has at the moment is complexity. It is a far greater problem than whether someone who can use a very heavily restricted ticket can get a cheap day out or not when most people are unable to use such tickets because of those restrictions.

A while back I stood at the TVM at Bletchley trying to explain to someone the fares structure (the booking office was closed). I know it inside out but it was still difficult. It was a realisation that things have just got utterly ridiculous. Oval is a major improvement in this regard.

I would be supportive of increasing subsidy to make a simpler fare structure more affordable, and would be happy to pay more tax to do this. But I am not happy for complexity to be added to create headline fare niches that are only useful for a small group of people in the know.

I grew up with Merseyrail, where, like XC, it was peak before 9:30am - dead simple. People knew and understood it. There is no reason at all why any commuter railway needs to be more complex than this sort of thing (give or take evening restrictions which are justified if you're going to single fare pricing otherwise you have to excessively inflate the Anytime Day Single on the basis that nobody will ever buy the Return).

You keep referring to "deep discounts" in various threads; at the risk of being deemed to be pendantic, a discount is a very specific concept in railway ticketing, and these fares are not in any way discounted by the correct definition, so I find these posts very grating.

I use the term in its "man on the Clapham omnibus" meaning, like most people do. See also the issue of whether a Penalty Fare or out of court settlement is a "fine" or not - it is not technically in a strict legal sense, but it is in common parlance, being a FINancial pEnalty.

 

[yorkie]

I don't like tickets being complex. The biggest problem the railway has at the moment is complexity.

Yes we all know how you want the cheaper fares, which apparently cause complexity, to be abolished. We don't need to be told this constantly in various threads.

A while back I stood at the TVM at Bletchley trying to explain to someone the fares structure (the booking office was closed). I know it inside out but it was still difficult. It was a realisation that things have just got utterly ridiculous.



I use the term in its "man on the Clapham omnibus" meaning, like most people do. See also the issue of whether a Penalty Fare or out of court settlement is a "fine" or not - it is not technically in a strict legal sense, but it is in common parlance, being a FINancial pEnalty.

If someone accidentally buys a ticket that is restricted by route and/or time, the procedure is to excess this to the correct amount. However the rail industry does not like to state this, which results in people overpaying to cover themselves.

The solution is not to abolish cheaper fares for the sake of "simplicity" and your ideas really should be confined to the appropriate forum section instead of invading numerous other threads.

 

[Hadders]

Tickets on GTR are simple. For years we’ve had:

Anytime
Off Peak
Weekend Super Off Peak

This is very simple to understand. The cheaper weekend tickets were introduced by First Capital Connect, so not a legacy BR thing or anything like that. These tickets make it more affordable for people to make leisure journeys at weekends which is a good thing for the general economy. Make these tickets too expensive and not only does the railway lose out but the wider economy as well.

People travelling at weekends from places like Luton, St Albans and Stevenage will see their weekend travel costs increase by a third. That’s before the annual increase (and Travelcard additional 3% is applied).

I don’t think this acceptable, particularly if it is done under the guise of simplification.

 

[jon81uk]

I don't really understand what this has got to do with the fundamental problem addressed in this thread; the appropriate fare should be made easily available, and when people accidentally buy an Off Peak and/or route restricted fare for a journey that requires a higher fare, this is rectifable by nothing more than the excess, but this is not made clear.

This means people overpay, to cover themselves. The fact some people are paying less than people who earn loads of money isn't really relevant and in any case it's a daft argument, as if the railway puts prices up, this just encourages people to go by car (or not travel at all)

By having fewer but simpler fare it would avoid the issue in the OP of someone being confused and getting an anytime ticket when it wasn't needed. If I was stood at a ticket machine I wouldn't know if my journey was super off-peak or just regular off-peak. Therefore if the choice was just anytime or off-peak, most people would have the common sense to know Saturday is off-peak. I've personally bought off-peak tickets and later found I probably could have got super off-peak but its not clear when at the ticket machine, so I'd welcome a cheaper off-peak valid all-day Saturday instead of a mess of working out exactly what time other tickets are valid.
Basically I think offering £13 off-peak and £20 anytime (for example) is better than £10 super off-peak, £15 off-peak and £20 anytime. Yes some people will pay £3 more (with that example) but many will save £2 or in the case in the OP saving even more.

 

[Hadders]

By having fewer but simpler fare it would avoid the issue in the OP of someone being confused and getting an anytime ticket when it wasn't needed. If I was stood at a ticket machine I wouldn't know if my journey was super off-peak or just regular off-peak. Therefore if the choice was just anytime or off-peak, most people would have the common sense to know Saturday is off-peak. I've personally bought off-peak tickets and later found I probably could have got super off-peak but its not clear when at the ticket machine, so I'd welcome a cheaper off-peak valid all-day Saturday instead of a mess of working out exactly what time other tickets are valid.
Basically I think offering £13 off-peak and £20 anytime (for example) is better than £10 super off-peak, £15 off-peak and £20 anytime. Yes some people will pay £3 more (with that example) but many will save £2 or in the case in the OP saving even more.

Your example still doesn’t stop someone buying an Anytime fare ‘just in case’ because they’re confused about off peak times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Your example still doesn’t stop someone buying an Anytime fare ‘just in case’ because they’re confused about off peak times.

It doesn't entirely, but "not before 0930 at all, or between 1600-1900 leaving London" is pretty memorable and easy to stick on a single sign compared with having to faff about with the timetable to work out when trains arrive in London or dealing with other weird, esoteric times.

To be fair the GTR Super Off Peaks valid only Sat/Sun are also quite intuitive (and can simply not be shown on the machine at other times), but it's an irony of simplification that the more intuitive name for them, Weekend Day Singles/Returns, seemingly isn't now allowed.

 

[jon81uk]

Your example still doesn’t stop someone buying an Anytime fare ‘just in case’ because they’re confused about off peak times.

As I said, most people have the common sense to know a Saturday is off-peak. But knowing what specific times on a Saturday might be "super" is entirely different.

 

[Haywain]

But know what specific times on a Saturday might be "super" is entirely different.

In GTR land, all day is very easy to remember.

 

[jon81uk]

In GTR land, all day is very easy to remember.

I'm pretty sure on Greater Anglia it was only certain times on Saturday for super off peak, but its been a while since I travelled by train at the weekend so maybe I'm just confused like the OP.

If super-off-peak is all day at the weekend, is there any reason why contactless couldn't just bring in a weekend fare? So two weekday prices based on peak and off-peak and a separate weekend price. Then on ticket machines just call it weekend price so get rid of the confusion as in the OP.

 

[Hadders]

From my local station there are no evening restrictions on off peak day returns to/from London. Cheaper super off peak tickets are available at weekends.

This is simple to understand.

 

[superkopite]

As I said, most people have the common sense to know a Saturday is off-peak.

Knowing that a Saturday is off-peak can in no way be described as "common sense". There are many sectors where Saturdays attract premium pricing. If one is unfamiliar with the railway industry, it is entirely conceivable that someone would have no understanding of what constitutes peak and off-peak

 

[PeterC]

If super-off-peak is all day at the weekend, is there any reason why contactless couldn't just bring in a weekend fare? So two weekday prices based on peak and off-peak and a separate weekend price. Then on ticket machines just call it weekend price so get rid of the confusion as in the OP.

That would be logical, of course it can't be done like that.

 

[Iggy12a]

SWR have one of the most restricting Super Off Peak fare codes - check out restriction code BD. It applies Monday - Saturday and you can't arrive in London before 2pm. Given their TVMs do not sell tickets involving choosing your train, if you just stroll up to the TVM, you would need to know this, and also be aware of the time your train was arriving in London.