Off Peak Return/Day Return Tickets

[doubletrackemble]

Is it the case that for any 2 station travel points you will either be able to buy an Off Peak Day Return (if they're deemed to be close enough together) or else a normal Off Peak Return which you can thus use for return travel within a month.

So for a given train service from point A, consecutive stations B-F might allow DR's but for G-K you could only have an OPR?

And if this is right, if you're within the DR area but don't want to return on the same day, you would either have to buy 2 singles or else an Anytime Return?

I had a quick look on the NR site to see if they had any details of this but couldn't see anything?

 

[John @ home]

Is it the case that for any 2 station travel points you will either be able to buy an Off Peak Day Return (if they're deemed to be close enough together) or else a normal Off Peak Return which you can thus use for return travel within a month.

No. Not always. Some pairs of stations offer no Off Peak fares at all. For example Patchway to Filton Abbey Wood. Fares are:
Standard Anytime Day Single (SDS) £2.30
Standard Anytime Day Return (SDR) £3.20
And that's all, despite there being an XC Voyager between these two stations with First Class accommodation at 0740 on Mondays to Fridays.

So for a given train service from point A, consecutive stations B-F might allow DR's but for G-K you could only have an OPR?

Not always. And sometimes it depends on the route you take. For example, there is an Off Peak Return between Leeds and Blackpool North which you can use via Manchester, but only a (cheaper) Anytime Return on the shorter route via Burnley.

And sometiimes both Off Peak Return and Off Peak Day Return are available, for example Birmingham to Cheltenham:
Off Peak Return (SVR) £19.80 (Valid Out 1 day, Return 1 month. M-F not before 0930)
Off Peak Day Return (CDR) £18.00 (Valid 1 day. Out & Return M-F not before 0930 nor between 1530 and 1815)

And if this is right, if you're within the DR area but don't want to return on the same day, you would either have to buy 2 singles or else an Anytime Return?

This is often the case. But for shorter journeys, such as Patchway to Filton above, there is often no Anytime return and two singles are the only option for return on a different day.

In summary, the fares system is complex and often illogical.

John

 

[doubletrackemble]

Thanks for the response John.

After I posted I realised I had the same query about Anytime tickets, although my assumption was that Anytime Day Returns didn't exist, whereas you've demonstrated otherwise via your Patchway example (on that, does it mean that you're eligible to sit in 1st class been as you can't buy a separate 1st class tkt?).

I take it this complex system isn't set out anywhere by NR, and is perhaps only available to those in the industry?

Also, is there anywhere online where I can just the see the fare costs/ticket types available between various stations i.e. you can get the info from NR site but first have to put in all your travel times.

 

[John @ home]

my assumption was that Anytime Day Returns didn't exist

Anytime Day Returns are very common for distances up to about 50 miles.

does [no First Class fare] mean that you're eligible to sit in 1st class been as you can't buy a separate 1st class tkt?

Sorry, no. There used to be a standard multiplier of 1.5 to be used in situations like this, but that multiplier has been abolished. I think you're meant to ask the TOC, or perhaps the Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC), to create a First Class fare. An added complication on this journey is that the fare is set by First Great Western, who don't offer First Class accommodation on this route, but the 0740 train is operated by Cross Country, who do.

I take it this complex system isn't set out anywhere by NR, and is perhaps only available to those in the industry?

The information is not always withheld from the public. Until May 2008, the complex rules and the detailed fares were published in a series of 7 large regional A4 books which could be bought from TSO. It seems that TSO are still happy to sell the last printed set, which expired on 17 May 2008, for £15 per volume here http://www.tsoshop.co.uk/bookstore.asp?trackid=002068&FO=1241783&trackid=002289

When the printed version was withdrawn, the replacement system was not made available to the public. In September 2008, ATOC published the fares, restrictions and codes (but not the other detailed rules) in a CD updated 3 times a year. This is available for £14.67 from TSO quoting ISBN: 9780117039315 for the January - May 2009 edition.

The National Routeing Guide, describing the permitted routes between each pair of stations, is available here http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing_Guide.asp but is not very user-friendly.

John

 

[yorkie]

You can get the Avantix CD with no cost for postage and packaging at http://theticketcollector.wordpress.com/2009/01/04/3/

The system was not simplified, although some fares did change from one category to another while some TOCs (e.g. London Midland) used it as an excuse to introduce restrictions on Savers that previously were valid on Any Train.

The naming convention of tickets was, supposedly "simplified" but it's only simple if you believe the spin from ATOC. For example, there are Off Peak tickets that are valid on Any Train, Off Peak tickets are generally less restrictive than Off Peak Day tickets but in some cases Off Peak Day tickets are more restrictive than Off Peak tickets, despite ATOC telling us that any ticket that was more restrictive than an Off Peak would be prefixed with the word Super!

My original article on the subject of simplification can be found here.

 

[nag67]

Sorry, no. There used to be a standard multiplier of 1.5 to be used in situations like this, but that multiplier has been abolished. I think you're meant to ask the TOC, or perhaps the Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC), to create a First Class fare. An added complication on this journey is that the fare is set by First Great Western, who don't offer First Class accommodation on this route, but the 0740 train is operated by Cross Country, who do.

I have had a similar problem when booking Wigan to Derby, seeking first class on Manchester to Sheffield and Sheffield to Derby legs. No first class fare was available for this trip, nor was there one for Manchester to Derby, where first class accommodation is available on many trains. Correspondence with ATOC confirmed that the 50% multiplier was no longer available as these fares had to be issued by hand and the facility had been withdrawn with no replacement option. They said that in order to get a first class ticket for this I either had to request one to be created via the relevant TOC (not a quick option) or to split the ticket into chunks for which first fares were available. They said that because split tickets were available they saw no problem in through first class fares not being available.

In this case, it meant splitting the Wigan to Derby fare into three separate tickets (Wigan to Manchester + Manchester to Sheffield + Sheffield to Derby) as there were no first fares for Wigan to Sheffield or Manchester to Derby.

Resulting fare was £7.50 Wigan to Manchester SDR + £45.80 Manchester to Sheffield FOR + £48.00 Sheffield to Derby FOR = £101.30 (All NFM02 fares).

Compare this with £68.25 FOR for the fare based on the now unavailable 50% surcharge on SOR. A fare increase of almost 50% since withdrawal of the multiplier!

So much for a simplified fares structure!

It does strike me as odd that no first class fares are available any more for many flows on which first class accommodation is available (Formby to York is another recent example). I don't see why such fares cannot be created in the database using the 50% multiplier if the TOCs don't want to use a more specific multiplier instead. This would put a bit more onus on the passenger to ensure that first is available on the services they intend to use them on.

It wouldn't be rocket scientist and would reinstate options that did exist until the paper NFM was abolished without the need for manual issue. Why should I be unable to book direct tickets from A to B using First Class where it is available for at least some of the journey?

NAG67

 

[First class]

Theres a few 1st class journeys without appropiate tickets.

LIV-LPY for example, ok not particularly long, about 10-15mins but still not bad to offer, particularly to those tourists who might wana use the last of their travel money going back to the airport. for those who don't know London Midland run a half hourly service between Liverpool and Liv South Parkway, with expectation for TPE (with 1st class) to stop sometime in the future.

Some really bizzare tickets exist. Look at Runcorn East - Crewe in NFM02. There is a 'route direct' ticket, complete with 1st class fares, a First Day Return, but no FOR. Now tell me, when is there ever a direct service from Runcorn East to Crewe with 1st class. The fare is also set by Northern despite only having the Ellesmere Port trains a handful of times a day, which incidentally don't go near Crewe!!

 

[Mojo]

It's become even more common since what were traditionally "InterCity" trains running local services or those London & South East services being extended out of area.

Already mentioned by John about Patchway - the same problem exists at Filton Abbey Wood, which is not only served by the CrossCountry service but also a FGW HST. Birmingham New Street to University is served by almost all of XC's hourly Cardiff services which convey First class, but with no appropriate fare.

Although saying that, many have been created, such as on local journeys from Chester-le-Street.

 

[doubletrackemble]

I've downloaded the Avantix program but don't know what all the codes are, namely those on the left (e.g. DAS, WAS) and those after some of the prices (e.g. QF, XR).
Hope this makes sense. Not sure how to post a screenshot.

 

[Mojo]

I've downloaded the Avantix program but don't know what all the codes are, namely those on the left (e.g. DAS, WAS) and those after some of the prices (e.g. QF, XR).
Hope this makes sense. Not sure how to post a screenshot.

The codes on the left are the types of ticket. If you double click on the price of the ticket it will tell you what it is on the top line of the box to the left.

The codes after the prices are the restriction code (where there is one), followed by the code for whoever sets the fare - for example 2V CC is a 2V restriction code (the actual restriction is detailed in the grey box to the right when you double click the price) and CC is CrossCountry, who set the fare. If there is no restriction code, it will just show whoever sets the fare.