Old Altered Train Ticket Found by Officer

[StephenWasHere]

Hello all,

This is a long post, but here goes:

On Monday 15th December, I made my daily commute to my job in Manchester, I caught the train from Blackrod to Salford Crescent.

When I arrived at the Salford I went to a Northern Rail Ticket Officer and bought a "7 day train pass", instead of my usual monthly train pass (which I have bought nearly every month for the past 12 months).

The officer asked to see my Railway Photo Card, which was in a blue plastic wallet which I use to store my photo card and old/most recent ticket(s).

When I handed this to him, the top most ticket in my wallet was an OLD altered train ticket (the date wasn't valid) which I had made a couple of months ago as I wasn't able to buy any train tickets because I had absolutely no money (long story short, very bad financial issues).

The only reason I made the altered ticket was because I was desperate, and had no other way of getting to work.

For some reason or another I found the altered ticket recently and put it back into the wallet, on top of the other old legitimate tickets that I had bought (I have no idea why I did this, at all, I haven't needed this altered ticket as I have had the funds to buy my regular monthly tickets).

Anyway, on Monday 15th December, the officer saw the altered ticket (when buying my new one) mumbled something and confiscated it, give me the ticket I'd just bought and then turned to the next customer and continued business. That was it. No other warning, or explanation.

I heard nothing for a month, until today when I got a letter from NR, asking for my explanation of this event, mitigation, etc. and to return the letter within 14 days of receipt.
(I've done a bit of googling and it seems to be there generic letter their prosecution unit sends out).

It says I should write my comments on the reverse and my explanation of what happened.

So what should I do? Write a grovelling letter, explaining how I had no money, was desperate and that's why I did this. And see if I can settle this as an out of court thing, and how a CR would pretty much completely ruin me? (Loose job, be faced with more debt).

Or should I state that although I was in possession of an altered document, this was old document and WAS NOT being used on that day in an attempt to avoid having to pay for train fares. And that the officer found the ticket, it was NOT given/presented to him for inspection. He found it when looking through my "possession".

I know what I did was very foolish and wrong, but in the circumstances, I panicked and seeing as I've been facing a lot of anxiety and stress surrounding my financial status, to me this was the only choice I could take in order to to work to avoid disciplinary action (unable to take out loans or borrow money from people).

Being told that I may face prosecution and a criminal record at 23 years of age, is scary, so any advice would be appreciated! Thanks in advance

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I must ask you to clarify something important in all that detail - what are we discussing by the phrase 'altered ticket' ?

I can't really begin to respond to the more general question of what you should do now without some clarity over this question, but I will say that these four points have absolutely no relevance, and if I may say so, suggest that you haven't quite grasped the significance of the Offence :-

"I had absolutely no money" (anyone incurring a liability which they knowing cannot pay for receives no sympathy - it's often known as theft, fraud or deceit).

"For some reason or another I found the altered ticket recently and put it back into the wallet" (that reason is going to be significant - all of your actions in relation to the incidenct are crucial).

"this was the only choice I could take in order to to work to avoid disciplinary action" How can you demonstrate that all other possible choices had been been denied to you, and that your employer had compelled you to do this? (if I understand you correctly, your choices now mean that you face Criminal action).

"Loose job, be faced with more debt." You can demonstrate that this was a necessary and unavoidable consequence of the railway's actions? (Your job and debts are of absolutely no concern to the Railway Company against whom you have commited this theft / fraud / deceit).

Hope you can help us with understanding more about that 'altered ticket' and any other 'altered tickets' that you have been aware of and/or have been associated with.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you altered the dates on your season ticket.

You have 2 choices.

1. Own up now, be remorseful (don't make excuses), and try to negotiate a settlement with Northern (preferable - you avoid a record, Northern get some compensation for your misdemeanour)

2. Let it go to court (not recommended - you will lose).

I recently have had severe financial issues. I was damn near made bankrupt. That has never stopped me paying money to travel, either by car or by public transport.

If I had to get to work and couldn't afford it, I ate beans on toast using the cheapest crappiest bread and beans and got to work, paying my way.

Just FYI a ticket and the photo card are not yours. They belong to the railway.

 

[StephenWasHere]

OK thanks for your responses!

The "altered ticket" was an old annual season ticket pass, which I had changed the date on.

I have grasped the seriousness of this offence, but I have a few issues surrounding it:

1). "I had absolutely no money" - fair enough. No intention of paying, no sympathy. But what if the circumstances of not paying were out of my control as to say? I'm a severe addicted/compulsive gambler, so that's why don't have any money, and a few mental health issues. Can this help swing things? I'm happy to provide bank statements showing how bad my finances/gambling this really is.

I have bought legitimate tickets for the past 2 years in order to commute to my job: Dec 2012 - Dec 2013 (annual pass), January 2014 - January 2015 (monthly passes). So I've had legitimate tickets on me pretty much at all times (up to these 2 dates I had legit tickets, and after these 2 dates I've had legit tickets, just those 2 days being the exception).

The altered ticket was set to expire on Thursday 11th December 2014. I tried to buy another ticket on Monday 15th December 2014, so this altered ticket could not be used on this date (as it had expired). So again, I've not tried to defraud NR here.

I'm guessing owning up to this incident seems like the best option, but what to own up to? Admitting possessing the ticket, that's true. I can provide bank statements showing where I have paid for tickets (monthly ones) and I'm guessing that there is some kind of purchase record linked to my photocard ID as well. As for the odd dates where I may have bought a return ticket for that day, most of the time I pay in petty cash.

Finally, I understand the grave situation of what I'm faced with, I'm simply trying to find out what my best options are here. Seeing as I'm being accused of "offering up an altered document" (from letter), I don't believe that I was. I was found with an altered document, upon passing my photocard in order to complete a purchase, but I did not attempt to use this as a means of escaping paying my fare for that particular journey.

I am willing to try and negotiate an offer with NR if I need to, as I really don't want to get prosecuted here

Thanks

 

[yorkie]

Why would I need to use an altered ticket if I had the legit thing? I admit possessing altered ticket, but there is no real, hard proof me knowingly ever using it.

If you had a legit ticket and did not use the altered ticket, why did you earlier say:

When I handed this to him, the top most ticket in my wallet was an OLD altered train ticket (the date wasn't valid) which I had made a couple of months ago as I wasn't able to buy any train tickets because I had absolutely no money (long story short, very bad financial issues).

The only reason I made the altered ticket was because I was desperate, and had no other way of getting to work.

 

[talltim]

There is a possibility that the OP altered the ticket, intending to use, but then managed to find the money by a ticket instead. Only he can say whether that is the case.

 

[StephenWasHere]

I wrote my last reply early this morning, so I didn't proof read it as well as I should have, I've updated it to make more sense now I hope!

The letter I received from NR has said that "I was spoken to by an authorised member of staff in relation to an alleged contravention of Railway Regulations, when a altered document was offered up".

The point I am trying to make is, the NR officer found a altered, out of date ticket, when I was buying a new ticket for the journey I had just made, and all subsequent journeys for the next X days. At no point did I try to use this altered ticket to avoid paying my fare.

So I admit possession of this altered ticket, but I never used it on the date of this offence, because it had expired.

Hope this clarifies things a little better

 

[Merseysider]

I would strongly advise against lying, as in any case prosecutors are well equipped to tell when someone's telling porkies in court.

I would recommend grovelling, and hoping it doesn't get that far.

 

[Class377]

OK thanks for your responses!

The "altered ticket" was an old annual season ticket pass, which I had changed the date on.

I have grasped the seriousness of this offence, but I have a few issues surrounding it:

1). "I had absolutely no money" - fair enough. No intention of paying, no sympathy. But what if the circumstances of not paying were out of my control as to say? I'm a severe addicted/compulsive gambler, so that's why don't have any money, and a few mental health issues. Can this help swing things? I'm happy to provide bank statements showing how bad my finances/gambling this really is.

I have bought legitimate tickets for the past 2 years in order to commute to my job: Dec 2012 - Dec 2013 (annual pass), January 2014 - January 2015 (monthly passes). So I've had legitimate tickets on me pretty much at all times (up to these 2 dates I had legit tickets, and after these 2 dates I've had legit tickets, just those 2 days being the exception).

The altered ticket was set to expire on Thursday 11th December 2014. I tried to buy another ticket on Monday 15th December 2014, so this altered ticket could not be used on this date (as it had expired). So again, I've not tried to defraud NR here.

I'm guessing owning up to this incident seems like the best option, but what to own up to? Admitting possessing the ticket, that's true. I can provide bank statements showing where I have paid for tickets (monthly ones) and I'm guessing that there is some kind of purchase record linked to my photocard ID as well. As for the odd dates where I may have bought a return ticket for that day, most of the time I pay in petty cash.

Finally, I understand the grave situation of what I'm faced with, I'm simply trying to find out what my best options are here. Seeing as I'm being accused of "offering up an altered document" (from letter), I don't believe that I was. I was found with an altered document, upon passing my photocard in order to complete a purchase, but I did not attempt to use this as a means of escaping paying my fare for that particular journey.

I am willing to try and negotiate an offer with NR if I need to, as I really don't want to get prosecuted here

Thanks

1) No. The gambling is from your own actions. The TOC did not force you to gamble. If you couldn't afford to travel, you shouldn't have done. If I want a nice car, but I can't afford it, I don't tell them a tale of woe and expect it for free, I know that I won't get it. Travel is no different. It's a product, not a right.

Why would you have altered it for 4 days if you weren't to use it for those days?

Questions in court or even by the TOC will be a lot harsher than those on here!

 

[swt_passenger]

From my reading of the above, you have said that the last time you had an annual season was in 2013, because during 2014 you have bought a sequence of monthly seasons.

Then you go on to say that you altered 'the annual' to be valid on 11 Dec 2014, so did you actually change the year shown on the pass? So from the ticket office staff's perspective at that stage you may have been using that pass for nearly a year beyond its validity?

So from the TOC's initial point of view surely this is seen as you attempting to get a years unpaid travel, not just a few days?

 

[StephenWasHere]

There is a possibility that the OP altered the ticket, intending to use, but then managed to find the money by a ticket instead. Only he can say whether that is the case.

talltim - yes! This is pretty much what I aimed to do. I altered the ticket intending to use it until I had the money to buy a legitimate ticket. When the money was available to buy a legitimate ticket, I bought one, and continued buying them. This meant that there was only a period of 2 days when I didn't have the money, and resorted to using this altered ticket

Why would you have altered it for 4 days if you weren't to use it for those days?

Class377 - The pass was altered so that it would last until the end of the year (Dec '14). Why? Because I had a December 2013 train pass, and it was quite easy to simply cut out the "13" and replace it with a "14". But like I said, I have had legit tickets for pretty much the entire year, except for the 2 days when I didn't have the money, and had to wait until I did have the money before I could continue buying.

Questions in court or even by the TOC will be a lot harsher than those on here!

Class377 - That's why I'm coming here for advice!

JakeF - I'm not intending on lying here on my mitigation, at all. That'd be even more stupid, and would make things even more worse! All I'm trying to do is explain that the ticket which was found on me, although altered, was an old ticket. I was not trying to use it on the day that I got caught with it.

I understand that using an altered ticket is a serious thing, but in this case I wasn't using it. I was caught with an out of date altered ticket. I have proof that I have bought, continue to buy, and used various annual and monthly tickets for my train journeys throughout the past 2 years (except for those 2 dates).

 

[CallySleeper]

Sorry but can I just ask one really simple question - why was the suspect ticket still in your wallet? If it was me, I'd have been of the mind to destroy the er, evidence as quickly as possible as a) it's only going to linger and potentially arouse suspicion and b) I don't see the point in carrying around old used tickets anyway.

 

[StephenWasHere]

swt_passenger - yes I changed the year on the pass from 2013 to 2014. At first glance, that would seem to be the case, but: if NR looked at all the tickets I have purchased during the last year (2014), then they should clearly see all those monthly tickets linked to my Rail Photocard account (via the ID thing printed on it).

So although this altered ticket has been made to last nearly 1 full year, it hasn't been used for that full year as like you said, I've been buying monthlys.

CallySleeper - yes, the altered ticket was in my wallet. I honestly don't remember putting it back in there, but I must have done at some point. I don't know why I would have, as I knew if I got caught, it would lead to this

 

[455driver]

There is a possibility that the OP altered the ticket, intending to use, but then managed to find the money by a ticket instead. Only he can say whether that is the case.

I would say that this isnt the case at all and trying to give the OP this 'advice' is not a good idea.

The OPs financial position is not the railways problem, they say they had absolutely no money and if that was the case there are many many shops where you can take goods and they will give/lend you money against said goods, there are (nearly) always options available (such as citizens advice), its just that some people would rather try and cheat their way out of it.

 

[StephenWasHere]

455driver - I am not trying to 'cheat' my way out of this. If you look at what I've been saying, I have complied for the past 2 years in buying tickets. Unfortunately I've been unable to pay for a ticket due to some quite severe financial reasons, and resorted into doing something very stupid and foolish out of desperation.

many shops where you can take goods and they will give/lend you money against said goods

I considered many other alternatives before taking this pretty drastic step. Including pawning goods. Unfortunately, finding out that I don't have any money to pay for my days train tickets the morning I woke up, meant this wasn't possible.

For personal reasons I am not going to discuss why I've been unable to secure money. This is not the time nor place for any of that. Instead, I'm asking for a little bit of advice from people who are much more knowledgable in this field than me.

I would say that this isnt the case at all and trying to give the OP this 'advice' is not a good idea.

No, this was the case. Why would I do this otherwise? Why risk getting caught over a small amount of money? Like I said: this was a drastic, desperate last minute attempt, I panicked.

 

[Flamingo]

I hope the OP has kept the old tickets, as these may be the only proof the altered ticket was not used for 12 months (with a resulting bill)...

 

[StephenWasHere]

Flamingo - yes I do have my old tickets, but unfortunately these only go as far back as beginning of August 2014. Other than that, I have financial statements showing that I paid on my debit card at the train stations, purchasing these monthly tickets, and I am sure that there is some records on National Rails system showing that I have purchased monthly tickets. As these must be linked to your Railway account

 

[Bletchleyite]

Flamingo - yes I do have my old tickets, but unfortunately these only go as far back as beginning of August 2014. Other than that, I have financial statements showing that I paid on my debit card at the train stations, purchasing these monthly tickets, and I am sure that there is some records on National Rails system showing that I have purchased monthly tickets. As these must be linked to your Railway account

You don't have a "railway account", though you do have a record of a season ticket at one station (or possibly within one entire TOC if held electronically).

Individual weekly and single/return tickets are not recorded in that manner, only monthly and longer.

Neil

 

[BestWestern]

Does a TOC have the power to launch a prosecution based on an assumption that an offence may have occurred previously? If the OP was not attempting to use said ticket for travel on the day in question, surely this is nothing more than NR sending out a letter in the hope that he'll cough to having used it on previous days when he wasn't caught? *IF* the accused simply submits a reply which categorically denies ever having used it, where does the case go? If a revenue officer found a wad of Monopoly money in your season ticket wallet would they accuse you of attempting to buy a ticket with it?! I don't condone the OP's actions of course, but I'm curious as to the legalities.

 

[yorkie]

I am sure that there is some records on National Rails system showing that I have purchased monthly tickets. As these must be linked to your Railway account

There is no 'National Rail' system as that is simply a brand name that refers to the Train Companies. However if you bought all the tickets from Northern Rail, and each time your photocard was quoted, then all the Season tickets will be associated with your account with Northern Rail.

Northern might reasonably suspect that you used the altered ticket for the duration of it, and therefore if a settlement can be reached, they may request payment to cover any period that cannot be accounted for with evidence of genuine tickets. I would encourage you to reach a settlement with Northern Rail, because if you cannot do so, both you and Northern will incur legal costs if you defend the matter in court, and if you are found guilty, a criminal record will be imposed in addition to a potentially hefty fine, plus their costs and your costs to pay.

The best thing you can do is admit the truth early on and offer to settle the matter with Northern.

 

[StephenWasHere]

Neil Williams - ah OK, thanks for clarifying that most of the monthly tickets I bought were bought at 2 stations: where I started my journey and ended my journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does a TOC have the power to launch a prosecution based on an assumption that an offence may have occurred previously?

Is altering a ticket not itself an offence? Criminal damage to railway property, perhaps?

I don't see why not, anyway. Provided the offence was an offence when allegedly committed, it can be prosecuted a *long* time later.

Neil

 

[StephenWasHere]

yorkie - thanks for the advice! I didn't know how it would exactly work but this sounds right. The tickets were bought between 2 different stations: one at Horwich Parkway (the manned station down the line) and my destination Salford Crescent. So I'm guessing that as these are both operated by NR then this shouldn't make a difference.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Neil_Williams - found some law to clarify:

Railway Byelaws

20. Altering tickets and use of altered tickets
(1) No person shall alter any ticket in any way with the intent that an Operator shall be defrauded or prejudiced.

(2) No person shall knowingly use any ticket which has been altered in any way in breach of Byelaw 20(1)

 

[Merseysider]

I would echo the advice of yorkie.

It's a very serious matter (conviction under the Fraud Act 2006 can lead to up to a year's imprisonment and/or a fine, plus the ramifications this would have for your career, and possibly having your own little bit in the local paper).

Although Northern may wish to make an example of you in court, Northern would get more money through an out of court settlement, which I would estimate about £200 as a minimum if they decide there's enough evidence you did travel with the altered ticket. The cost of you going to court would be undoubtedly higher.

 

[StephenWasHere]

JakeF - thanks dude. I am going to try and settle this out of court. I'm in the middle of writing my "explanation concerning the event" and I'm going to be brutally honest, explain what I'd done, point to my previous tickets as proof that this has happened only on isolated occasions, and ask for a settlement.

Thanks for the advice everyone!

 

[Merseysider]

JakeF - thanks dude. I am going to try and settle this out of court. I'm in the middle of writing my "explanation concerning the event" and I'm going to be brutally honest, explain what I'd done, point to my previous tickets as proof that this has happened only on isolated occasions, and ask for a settlement.

Thanks for the advice everyone!

We're all here to help!

Although we obviously frown upon things like this, I think everyone makes mistakes, some worse than others, so I'm happy to proof read your letter to Northern and check you've worded it appropriately, etc.

 

[StephenWasHere]

Although we obviously frown upon things like this, I think everyone makes mistakes, some worse than others, so I'm happy to proof read your letter to Northern and check you've worded it appropriately, etc.

Ah thanks very much, that'd be brilliant! I could privately message it to by tomorrow morning, if that would be OK with you?

 

[Merseysider]

Ah thanks very much, that'd be brilliant! I could privately message it to by tomorrow morning, if that would be OK with you?

That would be fine; your PM facilities should be fully functional as you've made over 5 posts. It would help myself and other forumites if you could post here a succinct summary of:

• original season ticket (stations, price, dates)
• the alteration you actually made to it
• whether there are any gaps in your ticket purchasing,
• and can these be accounted for?

 

[LateThanNever]

Does a TOC have the power to launch a prosecution based on an assumption that an offence may have occurred previously? If the OP was not attempting to use said ticket for travel on the day in question, surely this is nothing more than NR sending out a letter in the hope that he'll cough to having used it on previous days when he wasn't caught? *IF* the accused simply submits a reply which categorically denies ever having used it, where does the case go? If a revenue officer found a wad of Monopoly money in your season ticket wallet would they accuse you of attempting to buy a ticket with it?! I don't condone the OP's actions of course, but I'm curious as to the legalities.

I would have thought, like you, that the case could not progress through lack of evidence. The evidence the railway has is of an altered ticket, not of its use. I would be very wary of admitting to anything at all. It cannot be even proved that the OP himself altered the ticket in question, never mind used it. I would be very tempted to say you have no explanation for the event. You are not obliged to offer one, but if you do it may be used in evidence...They may be watching for you next time but I cannot honestly see how they can proceed to prosecution unless the OP admits wrongdoing. It might be an idea to offer the railway an amount as a gesture of goodwill to cover their expenses.

 

[Clip]

I would have thought, like you, that the case could not progress through lack of evidence. The evidence the railway has is of an altered ticket, not of its use. I would be very wary of admitting to anything at all. It cannot be even proved that the OP himself altered the ticket in question, never mind used it. I would be very tempted to say you have no explanation for the event. You are not obliged to offer one, but if you do it may be used in evidence...They may be watching for you next time but I cannot honestly see how they can proceed to prosecution unless the OP admits wrongdoing. It might be an idea to offer the railway an amount as a gesture of goodwill to cover their expenses.

And that in itself is a bylaw offence. And unless you are the worlds most trusting purpose you can only come to the conclusion that they have indeed used it.