Old Street Damaged Tunnel?

[christopher]

Just come across this on Twitter;

"No trains will run between Finsbury Park and Moorgate on Friday 8 March 2013, because of a damaged tunnel, and flooding near #OldStreet"

https://twitter.com/nationalrailenq/status/310007987647422464

Anyone know anything else? Unusual to hear of a damaged tunnel!


Thanks,
Chris

 

[A0wen]

It would be ironic if the damage was caused by works for Crossrail - is the Crossrail route going to cross the NCL between Moorgate and Old Street?

 

[island]

Don't know if it's related, but the Northern line was disrupted northbound this morning due to a blockage at Old Street. It was my second travel mishap of the morning after London Bridge was closed due to a power failure. I was trying to get to Kings Cross, so having taken the Northern from Bank to Moorgate I got off there when the driver announced the disruption, and got on the Circle, thankfully making my departure on time.

 

[talltim]

All services stopped after flooding at Old Kent caused by damage to a water treatment canal. FCC indicating nothing will run today.
Two tunnel drilling "bits" have entered the tunnels. No passenger trains involved. One 313 is trapped underground.

 

[NSE]

I'm on the 13:23 off KGX and crawled from Knebworth to Stevenage on the down fast as opposed to the down slow which the semi fast usually takes through Knebworth, and then overtook a 313 parked on the down slow so we could get into Stevenage first. I then crawled to Hitchin. NR says no trains from Hertford North to Stevenage, so how/what is a 313 doing there? i dont recall them acessing Stevenage via Welwyn unless for emergencies or such like. Is this all from the Old Street tunnel incident? I'm now about 6 minutes down at Arlesey.

 

[A0wen]

I'm on the 13:23 off KGX and crawled from Knebworth to Stevenage on the down fast as opposed to the down slow which the semi fast usually takes through Knebworth, and then overtook a 313 parked on the down slow so we could get into Stevenage first. I then crawled to Hitchin. NR says no trains from Hertford North to Stevenage, so how/what is a 313 doing there? i dont recall them acessing Stevenage via Welwyn unless for emergencies or such like. Is this all from the Old Street tunnel incident? I'm now about 6 minutes down at Arlesey.

No - I think yours is related to another problem they've got, namely power supply problems between Hertford & Stevenage, so they've got buses in for trains between Hertford & Stevenage.

My understanding is that Finsbury Park - Moorgate is effectively self-contained, particularly from Drayton Park, so problems on the branch shouldn't affect services to / from Kings Cross unless they choose to divert additional trains to the Cross.

The 313 may have been returning to Letchworth - IIRC some are stabled there during the day.

 

[NSE]

Thanks for that, I didn't think the Old Street problem would affect my service. No the 313 had passengers on, I guess service is reinstated then! Cheers for your help.

 

[Dr.iver]

I'm on the 13:23 off KGX and crawled from Knebworth to Stevenage on the down fast as opposed to the down slow which the semi fast usually takes through Knebworth, and then overtook a 313 parked on the down slow so we could get into Stevenage first. I then crawled to Hitchin. NR says no trains from Hertford North to Stevenage, so how/what is a 313 doing there? i dont recall them acessing Stevenage via Welwyn unless for emergencies or such like. Is this all from the Old Street tunnel incident? I'm now about 6 minutes down at Arlesey.

The Letchworth services from moorgate were being run all stations to ally pally then fast to Stevenage via the mainline which is why he was there

 

[Searle]

No - I think yours is related to another problem they've got, namely power supply problems between Hertford & Stevenage, so they've got buses in for trains between Hertford & Stevenage.

My understanding is that Finsbury Park - Moorgate is effectively self-contained, particularly from Drayton Park, so problems on the branch shouldn't affect services to / from Kings Cross unless they choose to divert additional trains to the Cross.

The 313 may have been returning to Letchworth - IIRC some are stabled there during the day.

It mostly is self-contained, but I'm wondering how they're turning round the trains. They could go ECS down to Drayton Park and then turn around there to re enter Finsbury Park on the down lines, but I'm not certain. The only other way would to be to cross the Fasts to get across.

 

[greatkingrat]

The Letchworth services from moorgate were being run all stations to ally pally then fast to Stevenage via the mainline which is why he was there

What is the point of running services fast to Stevenage/Letchworth (which have plenty of other services)? This leaves a 40 minute gap between services on the Hertford Loop. It would seem more sensible to just terminate them at Hertford North.

 

[Searle]

What is the point of running services fast to Stevenage/Letchworth (which have plenty of other services)? This leaves a 40 minute gap between services on the Hertford Loop. It would seem more sensible to just terminate them at Hertford North.

Not sure, but it's happened before, I've been on a 313 which was fast from Stevenage to Finsbury Park when there was over running engineering works. Seems to be a standard thing to do

 

[tsr]

They could go ECS down to Drayton Park and then turn around there to re enter Finsbury Park on the down lines, but I'm not certain.

I think I saw a couple of services do this whilst looking at the realtime maps on OpenTrainTimes, but I only looked very briefly, so I'm not sure. This was around 1100 (or so).

 

[swt_passenger]

It would be ironic if the damage was caused by works for Crossrail - is the Crossrail route going to cross the NCL between Moorgate and Old Street?

Nowhere near really - Crossrail effectively takes a reasonably direct route Farringdon > Barbican > Moorgate > Liverpool St. If anything Crossrail is more towards the south side of the Moorgate complex, their drawings show it alongside to the south but lower than the Met/Circle.

 

[tsr]

Nowhere near really - Crossrail effectively takes a reasonably direct route Farringdon > Barbican > Moorgate > Liverpool St. If anything Crossrail is more towards the south side of the Moorgate complex, their drawings show it alongside to the south but lower than the Met/Circle.

For the benefit of those unsure about the route, I believe this fantastic London rail map has the line of Crossrail on it now. Well, if that appropriately-located dashed line isn't Crossrail, I have no idea what it actually is!

 

[Class377/5]

Nowhere near really - Crossrail effectively takes a reasonably direct route Farringdon > Barbican > Moorgate > Liverpool St. If anything Crossrail is more towards the south side of the Moorgate complex, their drawings show it alongside to the south but lower than the Met/Circle.

Crossrail running tunnels don't touch the station but Crossrail Liverpool Street western entrance is actually linked into Moorgate station.

 

[swt_passenger]

Crossrail running tunnels don't touch the station but Crossrail Liverpool Street western entrance is actually linked into Moorgate station.

That's not what I wrote, or meant - in the context of the original poster's question I was referring only to the broad geographic position of the tunnels, and they are to the south of the existing station at Moorgate.

I'm well aware that the western ticket hall of Crossrail Liverpool St is co-located with the existing Moorgate station.

 

[A0wen]

The Letchworth services from moorgate were being run all stations to ally pally then fast to Stevenage via the mainline which is why he was there

"Fast" being a relative statement on a 313.......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not sure, but it's happened before, I've been on a 313 which was fast from Stevenage to Finsbury Park when there was over running engineering works. Seems to be a standard thing to do

It may be to do with where drivers are based ? Given there are stabling points at Hertford, WGC and Letchworth.

If the drivers are rostered to start / finish at Letchworth, I guess that could be the reason.

 

[Dr.iver]

Hertford North has 3 platforms and an up siding with limited space, trains this morning had to be shunted from platform 2 to 1 via the siding to free up the platform for arrivals, during the day trains are stabled in the sidings so this rules out the shunt. If u can't shunt then like mine this morning you would need to wait in the platform for 40 to continue your return workings, this would then cause carnage behind esp as the down siding is currently out of use due to engineering work so space is limited.
Agreed about Letchworth having other services but I believe this was done to ease the delays to the Hertford North services, dring the peak when they revert to Stevenage terminators then I would expect them to revert back to Hertford North as the stock in the sidings would be out so space is freed ( that's assuming the prob isn't resolved yet )

 

[A-driver]

There will be 313s which need to get to letchworth after the peak. You can only stable 4 trains at Hertford and all road get used so they will still need them to access letchworth. There are a few313s booked to run between wgc and letchworth anyway in passenger service during the morning peak and also booked on the fast lines south of marsh moor in the evening peak.

As for the flooding ill try and find out what's happened later as I'm not booked to go to moorgate today but sounds like its a problem at pool street-the section from Essex road to pool street is known for flooding.

 

[Searle]

Hertford North has 3 platforms and an up siding with limited space, trains this morning had to be shunted from platform 2 to 1 via the siding to free up the platform for arrivals, during the day trains are stabled in the sidings so this rules out the shunt. If u can't shunt then like mine this morning you would need to wait in the platform for 40 to continue your return workings, this would then cause carnage behind esp as the down siding is currently out of use due to engineering work so space is limited.
Agreed about Letchworth having other services but I believe this was done to ease the delays to the Hertford North services, dring the peak when they revert to Stevenage terminators then I would expect them to revert back to Hertford North as the stock in the sidings would be out so space is freed ( that's assuming the prob isn't resolved yet )

The 15:20 from Letchworth has passed Hertford, so it all seems to be resolved now

 

[Class377/5]

That's not what I wrote, or meant - in the context of the original poster's question I was referring only to the broad geographic position of the tunnels, and they are to the south of the existing station at Moorgate.

I'm well aware that the western ticket hall of Crossrail Liverpool St is co-located with the existing Moorgate station.

Sorry wasn't just addressing you but other posters who didn't seem so knowledgable as yourself.

 

[swt_passenger]

Sorry wasn't just addressing you but other posters who didn't seem so knowledgable as yourself.

No problem.

Is there any further news on what and whose this device is, or how big it really is?

I got a feeling that 'drill bit' (bringing to mind something you'd keep in your tool box) is being used as something of an over simplification?

 

[christopher]

BBC's Tom Edwards has just tweeted a picture of the damage;

https://twitter.com/BBCTomEdwards/status/310068816870780928/photo/1/large


Ooops!

 

[jon0844]

"Fast" being a relative statement on a 313.......

I've been on a few 313s let out on the fast line and at least once where the driver got it above 75mph!

They're not very fast, no, but I think they can just about manage to hold the top speed (or a bit more) once they've been given a chance on a long run!

 

[Class377/5]

No problem.

Is there any further news on what and whose this device is, or how big it really is?

I got a feeling that 'drill bit' (bringing to mind something you'd keep in your tool box) is being used as something of an over simplification?

As the picture shows there's multiple ones including some in walls. Drill bit seems best way to describe them.

Serious incident.

 

[A-driver]

Lucky the driver of the unit in that was paying attention or it could have been very seriously the looks of it!

I assumed it was normal flooding-didn't realise it was anything like that!

 

[A-driver]

I've been on a few 313s let out on the fast line and at least once where the driver got it above 75mph!

They're not very fast, no, but I think they can just about manage to hold the top speed (or a bit more) once they've been given a chance on a long run!

How do you know it went over 75 out if interest?

At lower speeds if driven correctly a 313 will out accelerate any of our other units but they struggle over about 50. The only sections we regularly get 75 between stations is Welham green-Hatfield-welwyn and cuffley-bayford-Hertford-watton-Stevenage-hitchin.

 

[Dr.iver]

The train before reported the flooding so an Ecs with a mom was sent to investigate, quite a big explosion happened when they shorted out the electrics, their was I believe at least 4 drill bits found plus damage to roof where other holes had been drilled.
Tbh very scary **** and potentially an alert driver has stopped a very serious incident from happening.
Ps driver is okay but a bit shaken obviously

 

[swt_passenger]

As the picture shows there's multiple ones including some in walls. Drill bit seems best way to describe them.

Serious incident.

They look like those auger (spiral) bits used for drilling holes prior to concrete piling, they connect together to extend the length of the auger as the hole gets deeper (or longer depending on direction) - so it's possible that both sections in the foreground came through the same hole.

So very serious as you rightly say, and if the auger sections had remained connected it could have spanned the tunnel and formed a pretty solid obstacle. (So far of course we won't be able to tell if the sections have been separated subsequent to the original incident.)

I wonder if RAIB have had to deal with this sort of thing before, thankfully it doesn't seem to happen regularly...

 

[westcoaster]

That looks like someone has miscalculated there pillings, and gone straight through the tunnel oops.