Oldest engines in mainline use

[hougtimo]

Which dmus currenfly have the oldest engines? What sort of mileages arw they likely to be at?

 

[asylumxl]

I would have thought the HSTs would have pretty vintage engines, but since the Valentas have all been replaced by MTU engines or VP185s, I guess they aren't any longer.

 

[Lampshade]

I'd hazard a guess at some of the 150s as they are the oldest DMUs in operation, most Pacers were re-engined in the early 90s.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Discounting the 2 (sort of) class 121 bubble cars still in service, the oldest DMUs are the 150s, first introduced in 1984 (the prototypes). If it's got it's original engines then it would be 150001, as 002 was fitted with Rolls Royce and the Perkins engines before getting it's standard Cummins engines. I imagine engines have been swapped around a bit though, including with later classes such as the late 80s 156s and possibly some new build spairs if any really blew up (the NTA855 was being built well into the 90s).

 

[colpepper]

Slightly OT but I'd guess some of the first generation DMUs clocked up astronomical mileages on the same power plant, repairs not withstanding.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Those 101s around Manchester must have clocked up some milage over the 50 years they were in service.

 

[O L Leigh]

Most powerplants get taken out, stripped and rebuilt. I know that's certainly the case with EMU traction motors, and some of those are getting pretty ancient now. The Cl455's use traction motors reclaimed from the second-batch of 4SUB EMU's that were rolling off the production lines during the late 1940's.

O L Leigh

 

[yorksrob]

Most powerplants get taken out, stripped and rebuilt. I know that's certainly the case with EMU traction motors, and some of those are getting pretty ancient now. The Cl455's use traction motors reclaimed from the second-batch of 4SUB EMU's that were rolling off the production lines during the late 1940's.

O L Leigh

Wow, I thought the last of the 40's kit had gone with the SUB De-Icers a few years ago! Reminds me of the LSWR underframes that were still to be found in (I think) SAP units in the eighties. You can't beat the Southern for re-cycling !

 

[Peter Sarf]

Most powerplants get taken out, stripped and rebuilt. I know that's certainly the case with EMU traction motors, and some of those are getting pretty ancient now. The Cl455's use traction motors reclaimed from the second-batch of 4SUB EMU's that were rolling off the production lines during the late 1940's.

O L Leigh

I think the traction motor you refer to is the EE507 (Englich Electric) which was still in (under) every EMU on the Southern until some time after after the 455s. I know the 442s used the recovered traction equipment out of the 4-REPs which I suppose was quite likely to be EE507s. So I expect the 442s are the newest EMUs that could have the oldest traction motors !. Then again given that things like traction motors get swapped around there is a chance that none of the earliest EE507s are still in use as it would be likely that the last built (suppose for 4-VEPs) would end up surviving longest even if their original home has long been scrapped.

 

[starrymarkb]

4-REPs/442s used EE546s - same as a Class 73

 

[ChrisCooper]

The REPs were built in the mid 60s, with another batch in the mid 70s, so the motors were fairly new, hence why they were re-used for the 442s. EE546s were also used on the 310 and 312 although heavily downrated. 455s and 456s used EE507s from later built SUBs, early SUBs having EE339s. The SUBs were the first to get EE507s. Some of the early wooden bodies SUBs were rebuilt with metal bodies and fitted with EE507s, so those pre-war 4 SUBs have lasted well and only had the motors changed once and the bodies changed twice (along with the underframe the second time).

As well as re-using servicable parts (afterall there is little to go wrong with electric motors, look at the Isle of Wight stock still going well after nearly 75 years), it also had the advantage that performance and power consumption remained pretty constant. A 455 draws the same power as any other SR 4 car EMU, a 456 the same as any SR 2 car EMU, and both perform the same as any SR 75mph EMU. A pair of 442s draw only a little more power (due to aircon) than a REP and perform similar to a REP+TC+TC set.

Another difference, 442s also reused the control equipment from the REPs, wheras 455s and 456s had new control equipment (although the 455s still use traditional resisance control wheras the 456 uses Thyristors). By the time the 442s were built, they too could have had Thyristors.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Is it the early batch of 455s that were fitted with jumper cables recovered from class 76 locomotives?

 

[matchmaker]

Slightly OT but I'd guess some of the first generation DMUs clocked up astronomical mileages on the same power plant, repairs not withstanding.

Reliable old lumps under them - although badged "BUT" I think they were based on the Leyland O680 bus engine or a similar AEC one.

 

[fgwrich]

Reliable old lumps under them - although badged "BUT" I think they were based on the Leyland O680 bus engine or a similar AEC one.

Close - BUT - British United Traction, the former joint venture between AEC & Leyland, and as time grew on, Leyland took over AEC - Thus rebadging it simply as The Leyland 680! As for the engine itself - it use was rather widespread - anything from widespread bus use (Leyland Olympians, Bristol RE's, Leyland National 2s etc) to the early 1st generation units - Met Cams, Pressed Steels, Gloucester Units /GR&CW, BR&CW, Derby Lightweights, Cravens & BR Swindon / Derby - 108s etc, And Various types of Leyland & AEC lorrys too!

Some seem to have even found other uses too - Diggers & Heavy Plant, Marine Use (Even various fairground rides are powerd by either Leyland or Gardener LX / LW / XLB & Even earlier engines powering them {Including former pre/post war Gardener Half Cab Buses!}!) - Bloody reliable engines, just when they've been maintained properly, ive certainly got a few horror storys about 680s!

How do i know some of this, because this afternoon i was busy putting 6 refurbished pistons one of the dam 680s - still covered in oil! :roll:

Sorry, Slightly off topic! Though having said that, Chiltern & ATW??? Do still use 680 Powered 121s!

 

[142]

Close - BUT - British United Traction, the former joint venture between AEC & Leyland, and as time grew on, Leyland took over AEC - Thus rebadging it simply as The Leyland 680! As for the engine itself - it use was rather widespread - anything from widespread bus use (Leyland Olympians, Bristol RE's, Leyland National 2s etc) to the early 1st

the 680 was never in production olympians! It is very similar to the L/TL11 though

 

[4SRKT]

The NIR 450 class DEMUs contain the EE 4SRKT power units, generators and traction motors from the UTA 70 class units built in 1966. I doubt anything remaining in daily service is older (or more characterful) than this.

The few remaining NIR 80 class DEMUs also have 4SRKT engines, but were built between 1974 and 1977. They do however have BR mk II bodyshells, rather than the mk III class 455 derivative of the 450 class.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Close - BUT - British United Traction, the former joint venture between AEC & Leyland, and as time grew on, Leyland took over AEC - Thus rebadging it simply as The Leyland 680! As for the engine itself - it use was rather widespread - anything from widespread bus use (Leyland Olympians, Bristol RE's, Leyland National 2s etc) to the early 1st

the 680 was never in production olympians! It is very similar to the L/TL11 though

The TL11 is really just a Turbocharged 680. As well as the Olympians (along with Gardeners and later Cummins) they were also used in the Tiger, some National 2s, the Lynx and Leyland Lorries. They were also used originally in the Pacers, but later replaced with Cummins engines.

680s were also used in Leopards, Atlanteans and as an option on Fleetlines after Leyland bought out Daimler.

 

[K9-70]

The NIR 450 class DEMUs contain the EE 4SRKT power units, generators and traction motors from the UTA 70 class units built in 1966. I doubt anything remaining in daily service is older (or more characterful) than this.

The few remaining NIR 80 class DEMUs also have 4SRKT engines, but were built between 1974 and 1977. They do however have BR mk II bodyshells, rather than the mk III class 455 derivative of the 450 class.

The power equipment (4SRKT 550hp) fitted to the NIR 450 Class Demu's was salvaged from the former 70 Class units, except for 8457 whose power equipment (4SRKT 560hp) was salvaged from NIR 80 Class No.88 which was written off after being involved a fatal accident at Hilden 25-03-1983
http://www.railphotoarchive.org/search_engine_2.php?_format=4&img=0681021557000&_PAGE=1

K9-70
K9-70

 

[4SRKT]

The power equipment (4SRKT 550hp) fitted to the NIR 450 Class Demu's was salvaged from the former 70 Class units, except for 8457 whose power equipment (4SRKT 560hp) was salvaged from NIR 80 Class No.88 which was written off after being involved a fatal accident at Hilden 25-03-1983
http://www.railphotoarchive.org/search_engine_2.php?_format=4&img=0681021557000&_PAGE=1

K9-70
K9-70

Indeed, as I more or less wrote in my post

 

[Simon Poole]

Are the Class 313's the Oldest EMU's on the network?

 

[ainsworth74]

Are the Class 313's the Oldest EMU's on the network?

Depends on if you count the Class 483 or not. If you do then no the 313s are most certainly not the oldest EMUs otherwise I believe they might be.

 

[Oswyntail]

Depends on if you count the Class 483 or not. If you do then no the 313s are most certainly not the oldest EMUs otherwise I believe they might be.

It also depends on whether you count the reused traction on the 442s as making them earlier

 

[Eng274]

Straying from the EMU/DMU path here, but do the class 08 shunters not have the oldest engines in operation? They may or may not be technically mainline stock, does this disqualify it?

 

[LE Greys]

Straying from the EMU/DMU path here, but do the class 08 shunters not have the oldest engines in operation? They may or may not be technically mainline stock, does this disqualify it?

How much mileage would a shunter clock up? In terms of hours, the 6KT engines must be pretty high, but I reckon that the 8SVTs in the 20s have probably covered far more miles, especially considering that their previous main duty was the near-constant movement of an MGR, then the long-range diagrams from Sellafield to various other power stations as far away as Dungeness. Otherwise, my guess would be whichever VP185 has been in use for longest, since they were installed on the very-high-mileage HSTs, and have been around for longer than the MTUs, although they are catching up, because of the longer EC diagrams.

 

[BestWestern]

Hi all, just to pick up on an earlier post, DMU engines are indeed swapped over at a certain mileage and replaced with reconditioned units; there's no way one engine could ever last the life of the train. A fitter did quote the recon mileage once, but alas I can't remember what it was If you consider that most units are fired up in the early hours, run all day and then only get put to bed late at night, that gives you an idea of the wear and tear levels. Plus the long periods of idling apparently do a diesel lump no good as the fuel doesn't burn properly and sits in the cylinders ( I'm reliably informed!) which doesn't help matters. I seem to recall a mass re-engine program on the 158s a while back due to the original (Perkins?) units being hopeless, anyone else have a better memory?!!

 

[Peter Sarf]

If you consider that most units are fired up in the early hours, run all day and then only get put to bed late at night, that gives you an idea of the wear and tear levels. Plus the long periods of idling apparently do a diesel lump no good as the fuel doesn't burn properly and sits in the cylinders ( I'm reliably informed!) which doesn't help matters.

Oh, youre so wrong, it does indeed HELP matters. How else does one expect to get such wonderfull CLAG when accelerating away .

 

[BestWestern]

Oh, youre so wrong, it does indeed HELP matters. How else does one expect to get such wonderfull CLAG when accelerating away .

Hehe indeed very good point! Tho it isn't such a great effect on a 158 LOL

 

[ainsworth74]

Tho it isn't such a great effect on a 158

You've just not seen the right 158s! Plenty of Northern Rail 158s produce pretty spectacular amounts of clag.

 

[BestWestern]

Excellent lol! FGW's are more prone to clattering engines but with only modest amounts of clag. Our best polluters seem to be the 143s!

 

[tempests1]

It also depends on whether you count the reused traction on the 442s as making them earlier

Didn't they recycle the Traction Motors from the 4REP's for the Wessex Units?
In a similar vain the SWT/Southern Class 455's carry all the traction equipment - 4 x 250hp Traction Motors from 4SUB Units. The last of those trains were built late forties/early fifties. The Southern Region were very good at re-using things.