Oldest Northern Stock

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HMS Ark Royal

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For the purposes of the question, disregard loco hauled trains...


I was looking at some pictures of some pacers just delivered into service and a thought struck me - are the members of Class 142 the oldest pieces of stock on the books at Northern?
 
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Shaw S Hunter

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Can't think of anything older. I don't currently have any publication to hand which contains entry-into-service dates but a quick look at Wikipedia suggests 142001-14 entered service at Newton Heath during the first half of 1985, at which point the first 150/1s were still under construction. Of note is that most of that batch are still based at Newton Heath today. My earliest recollection of 150s in current Northern territory is of 6-car formations of 150/2s on what are now Trans-Pennine Express services, primarily Lime Street-Scarborough. Couldn't say exactly when but I think they were brand new so possibly 1986?
 

Peter Mugridge

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Yes, the 150/2s were used as an interim measure on the Pennine routes via Leeds when new until the 158s were available, at which point the 150/2s moved to their intended routes.
 

sprinterguy

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Do Northern have any class 08's on their books?
Not as far as I am aware. 08502 received a coat of Northern Rail blue at Heaton depot, but that was primarily used for shunting Grand Central stock and was hired from Harry Needle Railroad Co., and I'm not sure that it's even there any more.

As such, beyond the locos and stock being hired from DRS, 142001 would be the oldest item of rolling stock leased by Northern. Here's an item of publicity produced for the launch of the Manchester area Pacers, which has been shared on this forum before by another member (sorry, I can't remember who):
 

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sprinterguy

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Can't think of anything older. I don't currently have any publication to hand which contains entry-into-service dates but a quick look at Wikipedia suggests 142001-14 entered service at Newton Heath during the first half of 1985, at which point the first 150/1s were still under construction.
The official launch of class 142 into public service took place at Manchester Victoria on 2nd September 1985, although of course they will have been running around undertaking mileage accumulation, driver training and staff familiarisation for a while beforehand.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Is there still a Mk2 coach in Northern livery at the science centre in Halifax station?
Yes, TSO 5524, although that's neither owned nor leased by Northern, they just funded the refurbishment.
 
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aformeruser

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My earliest recollection of 150s in current Northern territory is of 6-car formations of 150/2s on what are now Trans-Pennine Express services, primarily Lime Street-Scarborough. Couldn't say exactly when but I think they were brand new so possibly 1986?

The first 150/1s were introduced in Birmingham and many of the original Birmingham 150s are now in the North West.

While some 142s and 150s have been in the North West for a long time the routes they operate on have changed. For instance, 150s ran Manchester-Sale-Chester when they were newish and 142s ran Manchester-Oldham-Rochdale services between being introduced and the closure for conversion to Metrolink.
 

MatthewRead

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Yes, the 150/2s were used as an interim measure on the Pennine routes via Leeds when new until the 158s were available, at which point the 150/2s moved to their intended routes.

I thought the 150/2s were replaced again in 1987 by class 47s and MK2s because people didn't like the short formations.
 

aformeruser

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I thought the 150/2s were replaced again in 1987 by class 47s and MK2s because people didn't like the short formations.

Some of the 150 formations were quite long (in comparison to 158s and 185s.) You could have a 6 car 150 at York for Manchester, with it splitting at Victoria and part going to Liverpool and the other part to Holyhead.
 

HMS Ark Royal

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Not as far as I am aware. 08502 received a coat of Northern Rail blue at Heaton depot, but that was primarily used for shunting Grand Central stock and was hired from Harry Needle Railroad Co., and I'm not sure that it's even there any more.

As such, beyond the locos and stock being hired from DRS, 142001 would be the oldest item of rolling stock leased by Northern. Here's an item of publicity produced for the launch of the Manchester area Pacers, which has been shared on this forum before by another member (sorry, I can't remember who):

I like that attachment

"Plus a toilet compartment!"

As if trains didn't have them before...
 

gimmea50anyday

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Age wise think the only diesel stock still in regular TOC service older than 142's is the HST and the Chiltern bubble.
 

47802

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I thought the 150/2s were replaced again in 1987 by class 47s and MK2s because people didn't like the short formations.

News to me I was a regular commuter on that route at the time, it was around late 86 early 87 I carn't remember exactly when the TP route went to a half hourly service. The Loco Hauled service went to 2 hourly Newcastle Liverpool service, the alternate hour were Ex Scarborough 4 car 150's at least on the main section of the route which were frequently short formed, and Hull service frequently got substituted by a Railbus or cancelled.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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TH172341

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And the Pacers will remain the oldest considering the prototypes aren't heading north from GWR. They're remaining there even when the 150/1s leave. Hence why 150001 is currently at Doncaster, already in GWR livery, being overhauled.
 

47271

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Not as far as I am aware. 08502 received a coat of Northern Rail blue at Heaton depot, but that was primarily used for shunting Grand Central stock and was hired from Harry Needle Railroad Co., and I'm not sure that it's even there any more.

As such, beyond the locos and stock being hired from DRS, 142001 would be the oldest item of rolling stock leased by Northern. Here's an item of publicity produced for the launch of the Manchester area Pacers, which has been shared on this forum before by another member (sorry, I can't remember who):
I like 'the local rail service of the future'. They had no idea how right they were, now that we're 31 years into the future. :)
 

MatthewRead

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141s built in 1982-83 introduced in 1983 but were fully withdrawn in 2000 and transferred to Iran.
150/0s built in 1983 followed by the 150/1s built in 1983-85 the oldest of these are with GWR
142s built 1984-87 first unit was unveiled in March 1985 (saw this on bbc documentary)
143s built in 1985 and introduced in Tyne and Wear ins September of that year but have since gone to Wales and the South West
150/2s built 1985-86 started on the North Transpenine but due to their shorter formations and fewer seats they reverted back to loco haulage in 1987 until 1991 when 158s were introduced
144s built in 1986 I think it was the Hallam line which is still 144 territory that was the first line to get them
155s built in 1987-88 introduced in the summer 1988 timetable on the Harrogate line
156s built 1986-87 introduced in the summer of 1987 on the Birmingham-Shrewsbury line
153s converted from 155s in 1991 not so sure what the first line was to get these
158s built 1989-93 first introduced in Scotland WYPTE got a total of 10 of these units from the summer timetable in 1992.
Thats the DMUs I'll do the EMUs of the North past and present if you like :)
 
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47802

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150/2s built 1985-86 started on the North Transpenine but due to their shorter formations and fewer seats they reverted back to loco haulage in 1987 until 1991 when 158s were introduced

Well I was a commuter on that route in those days and this is news to me.

To my knowledge BR introduced their half hourly TPE service over the core section in late 86 early 87 i can not remember exactly when. The 2 hourly Newcastle Liverpool service remained loco hauled, the Scarborough and new hourly Hull services went to 150/2 although a railbus was a frequent substitute on the Hulls, which then went to 156 when they became available, and finally 158's replaced all services in 91.
 
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edwin_m

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Didn't the 150/2s on Transpennine get replaced by 156s? These were originally ordered for the Provincial Express network as it then was, but soon afterwards minds were changed, something better was needed, and 158s were ordered.
 

sprinterguy

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Didn't the 150/2s on Transpennine get replaced by 156s? These were originally ordered for the Provincial Express network as it then was, but soon afterwards minds were changed, something better was needed, and 158s were ordered.
156s did indeed supersede 150/2s on some of what later became Provincial Express services, notably on what we now recognise as the Liverpool - Norwich service, which at the time had numerous deviations and extensions at both ends; but only as an interim measure (as, indeed, the 150s were beforehand; a number of Central England services went direct from 150/1s to 158s IIRC), and as far as I am aware the "Express" network wouldn't have been developed as it was without the decision to order 158s to operate it: From what I recall there wasn't a huge gap between the announcement for the order of 156s, at the end of October 1985 and for that of the initial 158s perhaps two years later.
 
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Shaw S Hunter

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A couple of corrections

150/0s built in 1983 followed by the 150/1s built in 1983-85 the oldest of these are with GWR

Pretty sure there was a gap between construction of the 150/0s and 150/1s; no point in having prototypes if you don't allow time to try them out. So 150/1 built 1984-5.

155s built in 1987-88 introduced in the summer 1988 timetable on the Harrogate line

I don't doubt that the Harrogate line may have been used to launch the Metro-Train sponsored 155s (341-347). But this small batch was an add-on order to the main class (301-335). IIRC they started their lives at Cardiff Canton primarily working to Portsmouth and Manchester though once enough crews signed them they could turn up on many other routes.
 

sprinterguy

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Pretty sure there was a gap between construction of the 150/0s and 150/1s; no point in having prototypes if you don't allow time to try them out. So 150/1 built 1984-5.
Entirely correct: The first 150/0 prototype was handed over to BR Provincial by BREL on 8th June 1984, and the order for the production 150/1 units was placed in November 1984, with 37 sets delivered for service across the East Midlands (based at Derby Etches Park) before the end of January 1986. An official launch for use of the remaining units on the Cambrian lies took place in March 1986.
I don't doubt that the Harrogate line may have been used to launch the Metro-Train sponsored 155s (341-347). But this small batch was an add-on order to the main class (301-335). IIRC they started their lives at Cardiff Canton primarily working to Portsmouth and Manchester though once enough crews signed them they could turn up on many other routes.
Yes the main batch of 155s were Cardiff based for working services from there to Birmingham, Manchester, Portsmouth, Brighton and Weymouth - the WYPTE units weren't even ordered, for use on the Caldervale line, until 1988, three years after the main batch.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Entirely correct: The first 150/0 prototype was handed over to BR Provincial by BREL on 8th June 1984, and the order for the production 150/1 units was placed in November 1984, with 37 sets delivered for service across the East Midlands (based at Derby Etches Park) before the end of January 1986. An official launch for use of the remaining units on the Cambrian lies took place in March 1986.

Yes the main batch of 155s were Cardiff based for working services from there to Birmingham, Manchester, Portsmouth, Brighton and Weymouth - the WYPTE units weren't even ordered, for use on the Caldervale line, until 1988, three years after the main batch.

Not only were the 7 West Yorkshire 155s a much later addition but WYPTE later tried to order another 10 155s. Leyland had no desire to continue production of these units at Workington so an extra 10 158s were ordered instead.
 

aformeruser

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Pretty sure there was a gap between construction of the 150/0s and 150/1s; no point in having prototypes if you don't allow time to try them out. So 150/1 built 1984-5.

According to the ROSCOs the introduction dates were as follows:
150/0s: 1984
150/1s: 1985 to 1986
150/2s: 1986 to 1987
142s: 1985 to 1987

Although a rival prototype 151 was being built it wasn't delivered in time so the options on the table alongside Pacers were 150s and 210s.
 

MatthewRead

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I've always wondered what worked the Leeds-Doncaster route before electrification. I know when the line was first electrified in 1988 they used class 305 units from West Anglia, then these were followed by class 307s in 1989 pending the introduction of new class 321s (the 307s themselves displaced by 321s of the GEML). It wasn't until July 1991 when the Class 321/9s entered service and even then they weren't without their problems hence the 307s were retained until 1993 when they were replaced by slightly newer class 308s which then went on to work the lines west of Leeds following electrification in 1994. The 308s were then replaced by class 333 units built in 1999-2000 the first one I do believe entered service on 4th January 2000 and these are the newest EMUs in the Northern fleet. I understand the 333s will be taking over the Leeds-Doncaster route in 2020 I know for a fact that they have worked that service before but they can't use the terminal platform at Doncaster due to clearance issues is that right?
 
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