One person missing from the group travel ticket

[blondedolphin]

My brother, sister and I purchased a group travel ticket from Norwich to London back in October to travel today. Unfortunately I am ill today and My siblings have been charged £53 extra each!!!

We purchased these tickets from Norwich Station and we were not informed that this would happen if one person did not travel.

We were issued with the tickets without any terms and conditions.

Why were they charged the equivalent of full fare for that day, it they needed to be charged extra surely they should only have been charged how much it would have been to buy the tickets for two people back in October when the original tickets were purchased.

Does anyone have an address or telephone number I can contact to dispute this

 

[bb21]

Did they bring all three tickets with them when travelling?

 

[tsr]

Do you refer to a GroupSave ticket? I presume you do. You can tell because it should have the initials "GPS" on the ticket, in many cases. Can I just confirm your siblings were charged £53.70 for a new Norwich - London Zones 1-6 Off-Peak Day Travelcard?

This is unfortunately something which operators like to do from time to time with GroupSave. You turn up in a group and you're just sold the tickets on that basis. A few years back, before I had any real knowledge of rail ticketing, this happened to me on a Southern journey, where someone at the ticket office assumed that because 4 people were paying together, we wanted to travel together. No refund was given in that case because I perhaps did not clearly express my complaint that the Ts&Cs weren't clearly stated (having little understanding of how to deal with it back then!). I believe, though, that any added terms & conditions beyond those in the NRCoC (the standard conditions of carriage) should have been explained to you when purchasing - and indeed myself, when it happened to me.

 

[blondedolphin]

Yes My brother had all three tickets with him

 

[blondedolphin]

Hi yes they were charged that amount for the ticket and travelcard on a groupsave ticket

 

[jon0844]

Why were they charged the equivalent of full fare for that day, it they needed to be charged extra surely they should only have been charged how much it would have been to buy the tickets for two people back in October when the original tickets were purchased.

Does anyone have an address or telephone number I can contact to dispute this

You don't excess tickets because otherwise you'd always buy the cheapest ticket that will operate the gates, or pass a cursory glance, and then pay up only when caught.

I used groupsave last week (4 people) and we'd been split up on the train, and the RPI quite correctly asked me to identify the other two people that had them.

Unfortunately, once you knew one person couldn't travel [in this case yourself] then the only option was to seek to upgrade the tickets to the correct price (assuming you can do that?) and make sure you had all three tickets with you - so going to get the one from the person who couldn't travel.

As for not being told about the T&Cs, I think that has been discussed many times on here. I sense the general feeling is that you'd be expected to realise there are terms and conditions and seek to view them if you're not clear on anything.

someone at the ticket office assumed that because 4 people were paying together, we wanted to travel together. No refund was given in that case

They should mention Groupsave to you at the very least, and it would be courteous to also remind people that they must travel together at ALL times.

Likewise, I do with TVMs would work out that groupsave was cheaper and stop you buying four normal tickets with a railcard. The railcard will give you 33% off, while Groupsave will give 50% off (for four people). Or at least warn you, just in case someone really wanted to pay a bit more for whatever reason [perhaps more than one person having a railcard and intending to split up at some time].

 

[blondedolphin]

Sorry johnmorris 0844 but I didn't really understand your post.
what does "you don't excess tickets" mean? do you work in someway for the railways and this is jargon?
also in the last paragraph, my brother had all 3 tickets with him in case I felt better and decided to meet him at the station

Can anyone suggest an address or telephone number I can use to complain/ appeal

 

[reb0118]

As an aside, I know this won't help in the OP's situation, but my TOC has a different take on the group save. As we issue group save tickets on ONE ticket the group can not split up. If it does the person holding the group save holds a valid ticket and as long as there are fewer (or equal) persons to the original group travelling then there are no worries.

Any persons splitting up from the group would not physically hold a valid ticket and therefore are much easier to deal with.

This might be a good practice that other TOCs could emulate?

 

[jon0844]

what does "you don't excess tickets" mean?

Sorry, I didn't realise the word excess was considered railway jargon. And, no, I don't work in the railway industry.

What I meant is that staff can't charge the difference because otherwise everyone would always buy the cheapest ticket (just as many adults will try and get away with a child ticket, or perhaps a young persons or other railcard ticket and then claim to have forgotten the railcard).

The T&Cs clearly state you must all remain together, or else the tickets aren't valid - and as such, worthless. If you look at the reverse of any ticket it will mention those T&Cs that you can look up.

But if they did have your ticket then there might have been an opportunity for discretion to be shown. Did they get any paperwork to acknowledge that all the tickets were presented?

If not, sadly, I'm not sure that will help as you or anyone else could easily claim that you had all three.

 

[Max]

Only in the railway industry would it be deemed acceptable to omit key terms and conditions at the point of sale and then expect the customer to simply know what they are! A little experiment at some TVMs in Kings Cross last week found that when selecting 4 passengers on the machine, groupsave was offered automatically and the Ts and Cs were not displayed anywhere, which is absurd frankly. All you can do now is write in to customer services, explain the situation and hope that they show goodwill. Technically they were in the right but it's a bit of an unreasonable attitude to take.

 

[Llanigraham]

Rubbish!
Plenty of businesses don't display their T & C's without asking for them.
Try going into Marks & Spencers and try to find their Returns T & C's without having to ask for it, for example.

 

[jopsuk]

Rubbish!
Plenty of businesses don't display their T & C's without asking for them.
Try going into Marks & Spencers and try to find their Returns T & C's without having to ask for it, for example.

M&S wouldn't charge you more because you didn't eat all of your dinner.

 

[ainsworth74]

And if they did they'd make it clear before you started...

 

[island]

Please, let's not kick off the supermarket analogies again.

I would note, with no implications whatsoever, that a group save 3 is cheaper than two full-price tickets.

 

[Llanigraham]

OK, keeping it to transport:
You get on a bus, you don't get the T & C's.
You buy a plane ticket at the airport, you don't get the T & C's.
You buy a ticket on the Isle of Wight Ferry at the Dock, diitto!
All can have idiocincracies and limitations!!
The railway is not the only place that this happens, but there are a few people here who seem blind to this and almost revel in the unwarranted criticism of this industry.

 

[IanD]

Assuming the ticket was a GroupSave3 then there would generally have been no advantage in buying in October for travel today as these are walk up fares.

Maybe the OP has heard the likes of thetrainline (and MSE to some extent) advocating that buying in advance will always save you money.

In this case, it wouldn't have saved any money at all and (due to unfortunate circumstances) has ended up costing a lot more.

GA customer services may be sympathetic to the OPs complaint and issue a refund in full for either set of tickets.

If not, in normal circumstances, at least the unused Group3 tickets would be able to be returned within 28 days of their expiry for a refund (less £10 admin fee, possibly per ticket so maybe £30 in total). However, if any were put through the barriers at Norwich, then looking at the magstripe these would appear to have been used and whoever sold them may not even issue a refund on those!

 

[Max]

OK, keeping it to transport:
You get on a bus, you don't get the T & C's.
You buy a plane ticket at the airport, you don't get the T & C's.
You buy a ticket on the Isle of Wight Ferry at the Dock, diitto!
All can have idiocincracies and limitations!!
The railway is not the only place that this happens, but there are a few people here who seem blind to this and almost revel in the unwarranted criticism of this industry.

I think you're missing my point. I am not starting that every single T and C should be read out at the time of purchase. That would be crazy. What I'm saying is that conditions that are absolutely essential to the use of the ticket should be stated. Clearly this wasn't done in this case.

Also, you're argument is slightly flawed as I think what you're saying is that is if you get on a bus (for sake of argument) you won't be given the Ts and Cs. Well, no, you probably won't because the driver can clearly see whether you meet the criteria for the ticket as you'll be travelling immediately!

 

[34D]

If replacement norwich-london travelcard tickets have been purchased, then surely (for refund purposes) all 3 groupsave tickets are considered unused.

This is a ludicrous situation, and I can scarcely believe that the TOC fanbois are defending this absurd policy.

 

[IanD]

If replacement norwich-london travelcard tickets have been purchased, then surely (for refund purposes) all 3 groupsave tickets are considered unused.

This is a ludicrous situation, and I can scarcely believe that the TOC fanbois are defending this absurd policy.

Who is defending it?

 

[Paul Kelly]

I would note, with no implications whatsoever, that a group save 3 is cheaper than two full-price tickets.

In this case the "saving" would have amounted to £1.05. Assuming all three Groupsave tickets were presented and the situation explained, then it does seem rather harsh that brand new Travelcards were sold rather than the £1.05 excess. (Although it could have been worse; £53.15 is not the "full fare" for that journey - that would be the £64.10 Anytime Single.)

But it's all so unfortunately pointless, when the tickets involved where walk-up fares that could have been purchased on the day for the same price!

 

[Be3G]

The problem with buying tickets on the day though is being held up by queues etc. – we all know how well TOCs adhere to their passenger charter statements of not making customers queue for more than three minutes at off-peak times…

To the OP: it's definitely worth getting in touch with Greater Anglia, as I find that their customer services are generally fairly helpful for things like this. I imagine that if you send in the travelling pair's newly purchased tickets, plus the unused three GroupSave tickets, GA would offer you something in return.

 

[LexyBoy]

I agree with the posts above- it is ridiculous that tickets are not accepted in this scenario (i.e. all tickets held), especially since the only reason these passengers got into this sitation was due to the Railway's continual drive to convince people that it's always cheaper to buy in advance. If bought on the day, tickets for 2 or 3 would have cost basically the same as was paid.

All that said, I don't think there's much chance of a successful appeal, though the original tickets could be refunded (less 3 x £10 admin fees).

 

[jon0844]

Do many TOCs encourage people to buy in advance, bar the long distance Intercity operators?

I realise that from Norwich, it's for all intents and purposes an Intercity service - but I am not aware of the industry really pushing advance tickets over buying on the day.

For most of the south east and the former NSE area, you can do pretty well with walk-up fares, especially with super off-peak tickets.

With FCC's recent additional discount, I was most impressed with getting a Travelcard from Potters Bar for just £4.50 (with groupsave). That was bought just 5 minutes before travel.

 

[Techniquest]

Please, let's not kick off the supermarket analogies again.

Quite so, since I can bring so many of them to the forum! #MRsupermarket

M+S telling you before they'd charge you extra for not eating all your dinner? Yeah right, what an idiotic analogy.

I would highly recommend the original poster gets in touch with Greater Anglia, explaining the situation entirely and enclosing all the tickets (but photocopy them for your own records/peace of mind), give them a week or so and see what they say. Do let all of us know however, I'd be interested in finding out.

I recommend contacting GA purely based on my past experience with FGW several years ago, when I had been sold a ticket that was valid for my outward journey but not the return journey, which I'd specifically told the train manager (0325 in the morning, pre-TVM days and all that in Swansea) was the 0700 back from Paddington. Long story short, it wasn't valid and I got stuck in Reading for something like 3 hours until my ticket was valid. I got in touch with FGW, and some months later I hadn't heard owt so got in touch and it ended up with me getting a rather nice surprise in the mail

As for GroupSave conditions, it is a real irritance that they're not explained in any form. Just advising that the whole group has to travel together otherwise it's invalid would be great. I've only ever had that once, in November 2004 at Glasgow Queen Street on that epic TTF meet (boy wasn't that a good time! ), but never since then when buying GroupSave tickets, via a TVM or otherwise. Not that I get them very often, admittedly, due to the really annoying lack of availabilty with many trips around the country.

Yes there are other industries where you don't get briefed with the terms and conditions on transactions, but in general you don't get landed with a heavy discussion with an RPI or similar for having not followed conditions you weren't aware of. I did consider bringing in an example from my industry, but decided against it for want of not being flamed down

So yes, get in touch with GA ASAP and see what happens

 

[Crossover]

A little experiment at some TVMs in Kings Cross last week found that when selecting 4 passengers on the machine, groupsave was offered automatically and the Ts and Cs were not displayed anywhere, which is absurd frankly.

On a similar note, I was messing around with the TVM at Todmorden about a week ago when changing trains there and with a little time to kill...requesting (eventually...it is a Parkeon so its naff to start with!) I asked for a single to Dewsbury...selected to purchase an Anytime Day Single (pre-10am to no YP discount) and it popped up with a cheaper alternative being available......a Concession Single........

 

[Techniquest]

On a similar note, I was messing around with the TVM at Todmorden about a week ago when changing trains there and with a little time to kill...requesting (eventually...it is a Parkeon so its naff to start with!) I asked for a single to Dewsbury...selected to purchase an Anytime Day Single (pre-10am to no YP discount) and it popped up with a cheaper alternative being available......a Concession Single........

I've had similar with buying tickets for journeys with FGW. It was, at least one time I tried it, kept telling me there was super cheap tickets available. I couldn't help but look at what they were, and they were Club 55 tickets...

Are the machines you refer to widely used in West Yorkshire? I'm sure I've come across them at Horsforth (I think that's where I went anyway!) and they are unbelievably annoying machines. Took forever to query an off peak day return to Bradford on it, only curious as I'd bought a Day Rover and wanted to see if I'd spent more money than necessary. Not a big difference to be honest so I was glad I got the Day Rover anyway! Only 80p or so difference, shows how good the value is on the Rover!

 

[Haywain]

The Groupsave tickets have not been used, regardless of going through a barrier, and the OP will be entitled to a refund. A £10 admin charge should be deducted as it should be per (purchase) transaction, not per ticket. The new tickets purchased on the train are further evidence of the non-use of the Groupsave tickets.

 

[sheff1]

As for not being told about the T&Cs, I think that has been discussed many times on here. I sense the general feeling is that you'd be expected to realise there are terms and conditions and seek to view them if you're not clear on anything.

I am not aware of any such 'general feeling'. Right at the start of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage is a section entitled 'Your rights – a summary'. That sections states:

Train Companies and other Ticket Sellers must:
.....
• Make clear to you when you buy your ticket any important restrictions on how you can use that ticket ....

Note the word must ... not 'should' or 'if they feel like it'

If a restriction on the number of people who must travel with a Groupsave ticket to make it valid is not important, I struggle to understand what would be considered important.

... there are a few people here who .... almost revel in the unwarranted criticism of this industry.

I am no doubt one of the people to whom you refer, but is is not unwarranted to criticise TOCs for failing to adhere to the NRCoC whilst they, at the same time, penalise passengers who fail to do so. I do not revel in the situation either - if TOCs did abide by the NRCoC consistently I would be more than happy.

As it stands at the moment, TOCs have effective means to seek recompense from passengers who breach the conditions, but the reverse is not true. If TOCs continue to breach the NRCoC I will continue to criticise them.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Try going into Marks & Spencers and try to find their Returns T & C's without having to ask for it, for example.

The one down the street from me has a printed copy above every till.

The TOCs, on the other hand, tell you to go read the terms and conditions on the internet or, at a push, they'll take your name and get customer relations to post you a copy within twelve working months. How that helps the consumer make an informed choice about their ticket purchases, goodness only knows. It's almost as though TOCs budget for a certain profit margin from missold tickets and Penalty Fares.

What was your point again?

 

[cuccir]

Agreed in general. If the purchasers were not informed that they were buying a Groupsave ticket - and the associated Terms and Conditions, or at least that there are associated Terms and Conditions - then surely it has been missold?