Opportunity to pay

[tramdan]

Hi folks, I’m looking for some clarity on the above topic.

This is partly theoretical but also a very real potential problem. If a passenger wishes to buy a specific ticket (for example a Ranger or Rover, or a ticket with a specific discount) that is not available from a TVM, are they considered to have had an opportunity to pay?

An example that a passenger gave on Twitter was that he purchases a ticket to London CIV from Grantham ticket office. He asked LNER if he would be allowed to travel down to Kings Cross and then purchase the ticket on arrival. LNER advised that he would need a ticket to travel before boarding.

I was always under the impression that the answer to my initial question was that yes, a passenger hasn’t had an opportunity to pay, and they should not be inconvenienced by the railway’s inability to provide them the opportunity to buy the ticket they need.

I would appreciate members’ thoughts on this, and any links to documentation that support any point of view.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

LNER's current policy is that tickets must be purchased before boarding the train.

In the rare circumstance that you are unable to purchase at the station prior to boarding, you should make yourself known to the train manager to purchase a ticket.

Therefore, it wouldn't be acceptable to wait until arrival at King's Cross to buy the ticket there.

Let others opine as to what would be appropriate if the unavailable ticket was a Rover or Ranger.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

LNER's current policy is that tickets must be purchased before boarding the train.

The OP's question is quite clear in being about tickets that cannot be purchased before boarding due to lack of facilities. This point is irrelevant.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The OP's question is quite clear in being about tickets that cannot be purchased before boarding due to lack of facilities. This point is irrelevant.

The second paragraph in my post upthread explains what then LNER expect you to do, i.e. go find the train manager.

 

[skyhigh]

The second paragraph in my post upthread explains what then LNER expect you to do, i.e. go find the train manager.

LNER might expect you to do that, but there's no legal basis for it.

 

[yorkie]

LNER's current policy is that tickets must be purchased before boarding the train.

In the rare circumstance that you are unable to purchase at the station prior to boarding, you should make yourself known to the train manager to purchase a ticket.

Therefore, it wouldn't be acceptable to wait until arrival at King's Cross to buy the ticket there.

Let others opine as to what would be appropriate if the unavailable ticket was a Rover or Ranger.

Where is this documented?

Do they say where to find the train manager, given most trains are 9 coaches and they could be anywhere, this seems impractical to me.

 

[plugwash]

IIRC the old rules were that if you couldn't get the ticket you needed you should buy a ticket to cover as much of your journey as possible, and then exchange it at the first opertunity, but that wording disappeard from the rules at some point.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Where is this documented?

It's the response to one of the various FAQ's on LNER's website, although, to be fair, the particular circumstance is if the passenger is wanting Railcard discounted tickets.

Can I use a Railcard to buy tickets on the train?
No, tickets must be purchased before boarding the train. Once onboard, discounts are no longer available, and tickets are sold at full price.

In the rare circumstance that you are unable to purchase at the station prior to boarding, you should make yourself known to the train manager to purchase a discounted ticket.

Ask us a question

Find the information you're looking for on the LNER website by using our search facility at the top of our pages.

www.lner.co.uk

LNER's Revenue Protection policy, however, states...

Extract...

When it’s OK to travel without a ticket
It's an offence to board a train without a ticket. The only exceptions to this are:

If the ticket office is closed.

If a self service ticket machine that accepts cash isn’t working and the ticket office is not open or there is no ticket office.

If you're unable to access our ticket retail facilities as a result of a disability.

If you’re entitled to concessionary fares without a Railcard, such as permanent wheelchair users.

In these circumstances you can buy any ticket available on the train, on the day of travel, including any Railcard discounts that apply.

Revenue protection policy

Get details of LNER's revenue protection policy.

www.lner.co.uk

LNER's Passenger Charter (page 8) states...

Extract...

Onboard
If you get on a train without a valid ticket you will have to buy the Anytime Standard single or return fare for your journey.

Unless you have a Disabled Persons Railcard, you will not be able to use a railcard discount.

The exceptions to this policy are:

• If you’re unable to buy a ticket because the Travel Centre is closed.

• If a self-service ticket machine is not fully working (eg. not accepting cash).

• If you are disabled and unable to access our ticket facilities.

• If you have a disability which has prevented you from accessing our ticket buying facilities.

In these circumstances, you can buy any available ticket on the train on the day of travel, including railcard discounts if applicable.

The Passenger’s Charter

The LNER passenger's charter outlines our commitment to you and how we make your travelling by train as easy as possible.

www.lner.co.uk

Contrary to what the FAQ states, concur that there doesn't seem to be anything specifically about having to proactively seek out the Train Manager, although mention of "buying on the train" suggests that you may have to do so.

 

[43066]

Hi folks, I’m looking for some clarity on the above topic.

This is partly theoretical but also a very real potential problem. If a passenger wishes to buy a specific ticket (for example a Ranger or Rover, or a ticket with a specific discount) that is not available from a TVM, are they considered to have had an opportunity to pay?

An example that a passenger gave on Twitter was that he purchases a ticket to London CIV from Grantham ticket office. He asked LNER if he would be allowed to travel down to Kings Cross and then purchase the ticket on arrival. LNER advised that he would need a ticket to travel before boarding.

I was always under the impression that the answer to my initial question was that yes, a passenger hasn’t had an opportunity to pay, and they should not be inconvenienced by the railway’s inability to provide them the opportunity to buy the ticket they need.

I would appreciate members’ thoughts on this, and any links to documentation that support any point of view.

This is something I’ve wondered in relation to priv tickets, and didn’t manage to find a definitive answer to despite asking on here. It’s less of an issue now they can be bought online.

Prior to that, where my local ticket office has been closed, I have tended to buy at my destination station (local services being DOO).

If there is a guard it’s definitely worth proactively approaching them rather than plonking yourself down and waiting for them to discover you (or worse being discovered by revenue).

 

[sheff1]

LNER's Revenue Protection policy, however, states...

Extract...

LNER's Passenger Charter (page 8) states...

Extract...

So LNER believe the laws of the land do not apply to them ...... what a surprise !

 

[island]

Do they say where to find the train manager, given most trains are 9 coaches and they could be anywhere, this seems impractical to me.

Or if it's a 2x5 they could be in the other unit and you would be unable to get to them at all!

 

[tramdan]

Thank you for everyone’s replies. My question was inspired by LNER’s comments but also applies more broadly.

Are these rules something that the TOCs have liberty to make up themselves? Or (as I suspect) is there actually a National standard for how we treat customers, that applies to all National Rail operators?

So I guess the question is, which of the following options is true?

A) A passenger is required to purchase the ticket they require, at the first opportunity that ticket is available to be purchased.

Or

B) A passenger is required to purchase any ticket valid for the train they are boarding, before they do so, and has no right to the full range of tickets.


I would suggest that it is only right and proper that A is true. This has been the accepted convention for many years, and certainly in my own dealings with passengers, it is how I believe it is right to conduct the business of ticketing.

 

[Haywain]

This is something I’ve wondered in relation to priv tickets, and didn’t manage to find a definitive answer to despite asking on here.

That's all covered in one or other of the RSTL documents.

 

[alan71]

“Arrives at Euston, intends to buy a ALR , first destination is Glasgow.
Can’t buy from machine, is told to buy on train.
Barrier folk let me through (unlikely at Euston I know), tell me to find guard and buy from them.
Train is 2x221, sit in front unit, as it’s quieter.
No ticket check as guard is in the rear unit.
Gets to Glasgow, there’s no ticket office there either…”

Where’s my first opportunity to buy?

 

[Class800]

Euston has a major ticket office and there's St Pancras and Kings Cross very near by - you'll need to go to one to get your ALR before you start as these are major terminal stations

 

[alan71]

Euston has a major ticket office and there's St Pancras and Kings Cross very near by - you'll need to go to one to get your ALR before you start as these are major terminal stations

When Euston ticket office closes..?

 

[tomuk]

Euston has a major ticket office and there's St Pancras and Kings Cross very near by - you'll need to go to one to get your ALR before you start as these are major terminal stations

I assume he means after the cull of ticket offices. There will still be ticket selling staff on the concourse 'floor walkers' or 'journey makers' as some have described them.

 

[Class800]

I assume he means after the cull of ticket offices. There will still be ticket selling staff on the concourse 'floor walkers' or 'journey makers' as some have described them.

Don't think anyone's suggesting removing ticket offices at major terminal stations? If this happens, more tickets may be available online

 

[alan71]

Don't think anyone's suggesting removing ticket offices at major terminal stations? If this happens, more tickets may be available online

Check out those that avanti are closing. This is the reason for my hypothetical‘opportunity to pay’ scenario

 

[Wallsendmag]

Buy it online , you obviously have access to the internet.

 

[Class800]

Buy it online , you obviously have access to the internet.

Can't currently buy an ALR online or a rover

 

[Wallsendmag]

Can't currently buy an ALR online or a rover

But you can currently buy it at the station. Things change

 

[andythebrave]

You can buy at https://tickets.gwr.com/gw/en/journeyplanning/roversandrangers

 

[alan71]

the same as the OP , I’m asking a theoretical question.
I know GWR sell these online. Do you think Avanti ticket folks wandering the concourse will be telling any passenger in this situation that they should go and buy it from GWR?
What if they don’t have a smartphone?
A lot of the discussion over the last few days has been these ‘what ifs?’

My job involves thinking about edge cases and how to handle them, it seems the DfT have put little if a thought into it when it comes to ticketing. Mr Seat61 on Twitter has posted some excellent threads on all of this and how it could have sensibly been achieved

Opportunity to Pay & penalty fares appear not to have been considered enough IMHO , but I’m by no means a ticketing expert

 

[Mcr Warrior]

My job involves thinking about edge cases and how to handle them, it seems the DfT have put little if a thought into it when it comes to ticketing.

As well that someone does!

So, might a first class 14 day ALR potentially end up being issued on "bog roll"?

 

[Buzby]

Avanti were quoted in a paper today that their closing Glasgow Central (termina) booking office. ScotRail I assume will keep theirs open meantime but it looks as though the ticket issuing staff will all need to move to RP instead.

 

[plugwash]

Can't currently buy an ALR online

IIRC you can buy it online but only for postal delivery, since TOD doesn't support rovers and it can't be e-ticketed.

 

[Hapana]

A follow-up question: What happens if both machine not working and ticket office closed on a branch line. There is a three minute connection time at the junction. Is one expected to lose the connection with the main line buying a ticket at the junction; or does one get delayed and claim delay repay; or just try and argue it out at the destination and pay there?

 

[Hadders]

You are not required to delay your journey at the interchange station in order to purchase a ticket.

 

[Watershed]

A follow-up question: What happens if both machine not working and ticket office closed on a branch line. There is a three minute connection time at the junction. Is one expected to lose the connection with the main line buying a ticket at the junction; or does one get delayed and claim delay repay; or just try and argue it out at the destination and pay there?

In such a scenario, you are only required to use ticketing facilities at interchange stations if there is sufficient time to do so without jeapordising your connection. NRCoT 6.1.3 and its Information Box refers (bolding mine):

6.1 You must hold a valid Ticket or authority to travel before you board a train where there was the opportunity to buy one unless one of the following circumstances applies:


...

​

6.1.3 At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, because

6.1.3.1 the Ticket office is closed; or​

6.1.3.2 a self-service Ticket machine is not in working order, or will not accept your preferred method of payment (card or cash); or​

6.1.3.3 You have a disability and Ticket purchasing arrangements at the station you are departing from are not accessible to you.​

In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey. The price of the Ticket you purchase will be the same as if you had bought a Ticket at the station from which you first departed.


INFORMATION: This means that you should buy a Ticket from the conductor on the train if there is one available; at an interchange station provided there is sufficient time before your connecting service; or, if neither of these is possible, at your destination.

In perfect circumstances - let's say you were changing trains at a station where the connection is cross-platform, the inbound branch line train is on time, the ticket office is situated between the two platforms, and there isn't a queue - then perhaps 3 minutes would suffice to buy a ticket.

But in 99% of cases it wouldn't be enough time, and so you'd be entitled to buy your ticket from a member of staff onboard your connecting mainline train, or at the destination if nobody comes through on that train.