Vaccine rollout will not be significantly quicker until the Astra Zenca vaccine is available, assuming it gets approval of course. Far easier to store and distribute.
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Our total reliance on a vaccine and putting life on hold until it's rolled out
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87electric
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I just went back to read (the link you provided) what you said a couple of weeks ago in regards to the relationship between authority and the populace. You are completely correct that manipulation of minds is at work. Behavioural science has long since been recognised by Governments. I started psychology courses but never finished them at A level to my regret.
Among my eclectic reading choices from the last month, two quotes from Orwell's 1984 sprang up independently of each other which I find quite relevant these days.
"Power is in tearing human minds to pieces and putting them together again in new shapes of your own choosing".
"The choice for mankind lies between freedom and happiness and for the great bulk of mankind, happiness is better".
A reminder that the vaccine deployment has it's own thread which can be found here 
I've not done any formal psychology, though once you've seen the connection between the way we are being treated, and the way an abuser treats their victim in an abusive relationship, it is very hard to un-see, as the parallels are blatantly obvious.
I need to re-read 1984 I suppose, it has been a few years. But I'm not sure I'd say that the proles were happy *or* free. At least in the other standard 'future dystopia' - Brave New World - the people are kept (artificially) happy!
Still, even in 1984, at least they could go to the pub, and presumably see their families once in a while.
Yes the amount of U turns thats one thing, plus with furlough being extended a month it makes you wonder.
As most people did predict in terms of furlough it was even stated on their site it was to March at least
As I state myself numerous times, I don't follow any conspiracy theories online, I may read up on them but I choose to look at things with an open mind but I believe there is far more to this than meets the eye, its whether they implement it or they'll brush it up another way and it comes through.
There's a lot simpler explanation to account for the furlough extension. As it stood before, the Budget was due just as furlough came to an end. It would be suicidal for a government to be publishing a budget just at the point where mass redundancies were about to happen. This buys the chancellor a month's wriggle room.
There's also the "B" word on January 1st. If there's no deal, job losses will follow. Why not, then, lump it in with the rest, kick the can down the road till April and blame Covid.
There's also the "B" word on January 1st. If there's no deal, job losses will follow. Why not, then, lump it in with the rest, kick the can down the road till April and blame Covid.
I think it is fairly obvious now that this government (nor any opposition party with a credible chance of winning an election) have no intention of reducing spending to anywhere near incoming revenue.
I fear that this situation will continue until external events force the government to stop doing this. With very unpleasant consequences all round.
Whilst I see the point but do we really expect a months wriggle room they'll come up with something to bring this to an end or should we just expect a car crash to happen?
As for Jan 1st if that was to happen then that will probably be their own exit clause... we didn't see it happening (pretty much you did)
Its as if in reality all these people in higher places should know and what to do but they seem blinded by anything and everything but of course COVID is at the forefront, and even if its blamed there they will still pass the buck onto... COVID (oh jeez really?)
at least we could lump them together and use the tagline "all in this together" (but they are probably involved in other things together to what you and I are)
Just thinking though as you mention opposition parties its a bit ironic you would expect them to have balls to do exactly that but they seem more happy with the way things are going and again it does raise a question if to vote for an alternative view/way out who do you vote for as they all seem to be in it? (I say this at both Scottish and UK level)
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To paraphrase a line from a play (I forget which) "it's what we're in that worries me"
I’ve noticed the media (especially BBC news) is reporting a lot about celebrities getting the new covid vaccine. I wonder if they are being encouraged to do so as a form of propaganda in the hope it increases confidence and acceptance rates in the vaccine.
It wouldn't worry me unless the celebrities in question were under 80, because it would be unethical to have famous people cutting in line for PR reasons. But the two examples which I know of (Ian McKellen and the Speaker in the House of Lords) are both over that age.
So long as Kenneth Baker and Peter Mandelson don't have it.
Last thing we need is a rumour taking root that the vaccine turns you into a slug or snake.
They did say this a few weeks ago I believe, surprised how quick the celebs have came in to do it.
I wonder if the same celebs be highlighted in a few weeks time for second dose?
I rather still put the politicians to the front as to prove a point and to say how they get on..
You are now entering the twilight zone...
Jozhua
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Clearly the Vaccine rollout is taking quite a while! Apparently at the current pace, it'll take 10 years to vaccinate the population!
The vaccine appears to be far from the "get out of jail" card we were offered.
The best thing that can be done is to just say it is there. Once people see friends and family getting it, then I think there will be a better uptake. The current challenge isn't that people don't want it, it's that we can't even get remotely enough for those who do.
The vaccine appears to be far from the "get out of jail" card we were offered.
Borrowing for operational expenses is dumb, but having some loans out for infrastructure/long term investments isn't too bad. You wouldn't rack up debt on a credit card to pay rent, but a mortgage is a relatively good financial decision.
Oh dear, I don't really think they understand. Having some big celeb-filled campaign will probably feel a bit patronising for people, and those who are really far down the conspiracy-hole will believe it's just saline.
The best thing that can be done is to just say it is there. Once people see friends and family getting it, then I think there will be a better uptake. The current challenge isn't that people don't want it, it's that we can't even get remotely enough for those who do.
Isn’t the current rate of vaccination limited by how much of the Pfizer vaccine we can get hold of and the difficulties of distribution?
The Oxford vaccine is being produced in much larger quantities so the rate should go up once it’s approved and rolled out.
The Oxford vaccine is being produced in much larger quantities so the rate should go up once it’s approved and rolled out.
Only numbers of vaccines available, distribution is harder, but given that we've got a long list of people willing to have it but that big a problem.
Yes it needs to be kept at -70°C for long term storage but it can be kept packed in dry ice for up to 11 days (subject to changin renewing the dry ice) and then in a fridge for up to 5 days (although the NHS has shortened those limits a little).
Given that most people in the UK are within an hour of a hospital (in fact most are within an hour of more than one), for the vast majority of people that's not going to be an issue. Even from Belgium (one of the plants making the vaccine) the whole of the UK is (even without flying) within 24 hours, still giving you at least 48 hours to inject the vaccine, even if transported in a fridge.
Bantamzen
Established Member
I had never thought of us being treated as if we were in an abusive relationship until now, but you make an extremely valid point. We are being made to feel responsible for things beyond our control, and make to feel guilty simply for existing. And then to prove how guilty we are, we are routinely punished by not being allowed to function normally & denied some basic freedoms.
More worryingly is how politicians around the world seem to be testing positive for covid at pivotal times. I am fully expecting Lockdown v3.0 to be preceded with a raft of the cabinet getting positive results.
I think it is cockup not conspiracy. The politicians don't know what has hit them (especially so in the UK where powers have been simultaneously repatriated from the EU) and modern politicians tend to be chosen for being compliant not expert, with independent thinking ones largely weeded out in the selection process.
The advisers and medical experts are very clever boffin types, but, as with many very clever people, the cleverness can be tramlined to their particular field and they are often less aware of wider perspectives and not worldly wise.
Then in the UK (and many other places) there is the "ministry knows best" mentality and they think it is too dangerous to be honest (the classic being the lying that masks didn't work back in March, because there was a shortage and they feared running out in hospitals; then the later U turn with compulsion when enough had been made, with further lies that the science had changed. All because they basically don't trust us. (then they wonder why people take the likes of Mr Icke seriously).
Result - as you see it.
7 Ingleborough
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The politicians excuses simply do not wash. This pandemic is unprecedented they keep saying, no it isn't. It was unexpected they keep saying, no it wasn't. Every few years there are major pandemic exercises involving all the civil and military emergency planners. Pandemic was classified the no. 1 societal threat to the UK during John Majors time as PM. Huge resources were put into preparing for it. Massive stocks of beds, PPE, ventilators and copper piping (for piping oxygen round emergency hospitals) stored at military sites across the UK. I toured the Bicester site as part of the 1998 exercise. After privatisation, in 2010, lots of items containing rubber became life expired (5 year shelf life) and not replaced. Johnson largely inherited this, but he was part of the Cabinet that chose to ignore the results of the 2016 exercise, when the severe shortage of PPE was highlighted. The then Cabinet Secretary and a former Minister from that time have fessed up to their part in that. So this lot, knowing what was happening in Italy and Spain lied to the medical and care staff about the level of PPE required, not because of science, but because Movianto had lost so much of it. You can expect that when the enquiries start, the politicians will be making damn sure the blame falls on Movianto directors, and not them.
This pandemic has seen cancer specialists, even chiropodists trained to work in ICUs and on wards as covid cases overwhelmed the hospitals. So the choice was either keep the other departments running or let thousands go untreated, and if you are in a hospital bed with covid, you are at serious risk. So what do you do? Ignore them to keep hospitals running as normal?
Oh I think Whitty has quite a bit of experience in the field, first hand treating victims of SARS, MERS and Ebola as well as being a doctor here in the UK. His biography shows what a determined individual he is, especially after his Father was killed by a terrorist in a targeted attack when Whitty was a teenager. Yes this will be a long haul, was never really painted otherwise, and it is also the case in Germany, the Netherlands, Sweden (especially Sweden!) and as for the USA and Brasil, bloody hell! In the Far East, especially South Korea recovery will be quicker, countries where mask wearing to prevent transmission of colds and flu is second nature. But only here in the West do we seem to think it's a good idea to wear them with valves built in. Odd.
This pandemic has seen cancer specialists, even chiropodists trained to work in ICUs and on wards as covid cases overwhelmed the hospitals. So the choice was either keep the other departments running or let thousands go untreated, and if you are in a hospital bed with covid, you are at serious risk. So what do you do? Ignore them to keep hospitals running as normal?
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Indeed - plus add in the other standard behaviours such as systematically being isolated from friends and family, being told how to behave and what to wear in public, and being subject to nonsensical, arbitrary, and frequently changing rules, among others. If you go to any checklist of 'how to recognise if you're in an abusive relationship' and apply it to the current situation, the parallels are incredibly close.
And once you realise that, you also realise that such things never end because the abuser decides to stop abusing - indeed the behaviour tends to only get worse. The abused person has to start to stand up for themselves or, preferably, leave the relationship entirely.
That is where the likes of Peter Hitchens, Piers Corbyn and maybe even Icke provide a useful public service.
In forcing the authorities to roll back emergency measures once the worst is over and not keep them for years or permanently.
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We had what was considered an outbreak at work and one of the people said that we all followed the rules and they were obviously feeling guilty. I did say that viruses don't respect rules so no need for them to be on a guilt trip.
bramling
Veteran Member
I agree with all of the above, though I’m not sure it’s deliberate. More a case of these Etonian fools simply not knowing how to interact with conventional people.
Fancy the day coming when it’s a crime to breathe through your nose on a train.
A very rough calculation suggests that'd reduce deaths by about 0.5%* which would be impossible to detect (but that figure should increase rapidly). But hopefully in a couple of weeks the decrease will be much more noticeable - it might even be getting on for 10%.
* There are around 1 million people in the first group to be vaccinated, these account for 36% of deaths and we did about 2% of them on the first day - 65% of 2% of 36% is 0.47%.
However we also need to consider that it takes about 3 weeks between infection and hospitalisation and another few weeks before those then relate to deaths.
As such don't expect much of a change in the numbers of deaths before the end of January, however we should start to see the numbers of cases at about Christmas (unfortunately that's then likely to be short lived before there's the potential for increases due to Christmas).
Cases aren't likely to change much in the downwards direction yet, as only the over 80s are being vaccinated. Hopefully the attention will move away from that and more towards hospitalisations and deaths, which will show an improvement way before anything else.
Agreed many people don't get the time lags involved, we won't be seeing measurable effects soon.
It is also worth remembering that there were next to no 80+ people involved in the trials so we don't know how effective it is in that age groups (a known issue with vaccine effectiveness in general) and it will be along time before we can measure it.
It would be interesting to see what impact the festival period has on the number of cases if most people do observe the restrictions it is possible they could fall as a result of school closures which a lot of the pro-restrictions brigade blame for the increase after summer.
I would like to think that as more of the clinically vulnerable population gets vaccinated (if they wish to have it) and the number of hospitalizations and deaths decrease the government will consider us going back to normality however sadly I have my doubts especially with what has already being discussed further up the forum.
I would like to think that as more of the clinically vulnerable population gets vaccinated (if they wish to have it) and the number of hospitalizations and deaths decrease the government will consider us going back to normality however sadly I have my doubts especially with what has already being discussed further up the forum.
Freightmaster
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