Out with credit-card sized stock and in with mobile ticketing - is it too early?

Wallsendmag

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I don't disagree, but my experience on the staff side of the counter has taught me that the customer that can be the problem. No matter how quick the staff member, some customers can make even the simplest transaction seem uncommonly difficult and overly time consuming!
Or that old adage applies "a liitle bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing......".
Can I have a return from......
 
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mikeg

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I can answer the first question, and it's definitely fixed. Without fail (I use the app to travel several times a week) I'll always get an email with the pdf a few seconds after booking my tickets, and of course you can still show them in the app).
The first answer is correct it's been fixed, but as for the second I was sold a ticket with the promise I'd be able to break my journey. However when I click the info button on the e ticket it says a break of journey is not permitted despite it being an i3 restricted CDR.

Not that its particularly relevant being a one stop journey but I'd hate to think about people getting in trouble for breaking their journey. Screenshot_20200613_071021_com.firsttranspennineexpress.jpg
 

Hadders

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I was sold a ticket with the promise I'd be able to break my journey. However when I click the info button on the e ticket it says a break of journey is not permitted despite it being an i3 restricted CDR.
That's not an issue with e-ticket it's poor wording in the information from the TOC that sold it.
 

mikeg

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Poor wording or not I'd not take my chances with one of tpe 's e tickets versus a northern agency RPI! I happen to think they've deliberately added this as they have issues with' used' e tickets and passengers taking breaks of journey and not being able to tell the difference which is of course their problem not the passenger's. Why is the railway so anti customer?
 

Hadders

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Actually it is completely correct, where can you break your journey on that trip.
It contradicts itself! The general text in the confirmation says that a break of journey is not allowed. Look up i3 on nre.co.uk which is what the confirmation also tells you to do and there is no restriction on break of journey...
 

Bletchleyite

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It contradicts itself! The general text in the confirmation says that a break of journey is not allowed. Look up i3 on nre.co.uk which is what the confirmation also tells you to do and there is no restriction on break of journey...
I think his point was that as there are no intermediate stations it is impossible to do it even if you were technically allowed to.

This is a problem with a lot of e-tickets, though. Including some where BoJ isn't even possible to be banned e.g. Anytimes.

It is NOT an issue with the data, as can be seen here:
I3 does not have a BoJ restriction in the data. It is a bug in the e-ticket implementation. And it needs to be fixed.
 

mikeg

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I know there are no intermediate stations but I don't credit the app with that much intelligence. For what it's worth when I used the app much earlier it said the same for an Ntr-YRK CDR on which I actually did break my journey.
 

alistairlees

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I know there are no intermediate stations but I don't credit the app with that much intelligence. For what it's worth when I used the app much earlier it said the same for an Ntr-YRK CDR on which I actually did break my journey.
The statement on the TPE eTicket that "no break of journey is allowed" is not anything to do with the app - it's the way in which the TOC has asked its TIS supplier (Worldline) to implement certain eTicket formats (there are different formats for walk up, Advance, season, and a few other things). It's not actually in the specification at all, and has simply been hardcoded to appear on the eTicket; whether it appears or not doesn't bear any relation to the journey you make, the restriction code on the ticket, or even what type of walk up ticket it is.

The hardcoding dates back to the time (a few years ago) when eTickets were considered to be a trial or experiment. Some TOCs were concerned that the break of journey would generate increased opportunities for fraud using eTickets compared to using traditional orange magstripe tickets. eTickets are, of course, no longer an experiment or a trial and are available on virtually all routes (except for those that cross London, and some TOC geographic areas) now. The "no break of journey allowed" text should have been removed some time ago and carries no weight (and, in any case, you are not made aware of it until you have bought the ticket).

You can safely disregard it and might also wish to ask TPE to remove it.

There is also absolutely no evidence of increased levels of fraud compared with orange magstripe tickets, either.
 

Wallsendmag

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The statement on the TPE eTicket that "no break of journey is allowed" is not anything to do with the app - it's the way in which the TOC has asked its TIS supplier (Worldline) to implement certain eTicket formats (there are different formats for walk up, Advance, season, and a few other things). It's not actually in the specification at all, and has simply been hardcoded to appear on the eTicket; whether it appears or not doesn't bear any relation to the journey you make, the restriction code on the ticket, or even what type of walk up ticket it is.

The hardcoding dates back to the time (a few years ago) when eTickets were considered to be a trial or experiment. Some TOCs were concerned that the break of journey would generate increased opportunities for fraud using eTickets compared to using traditional orange magstripe tickets. eTickets are, of course, no longer an experiment or a trial and are available on virtually all routes (except for those that cross London, and some TOC geographic areas) now. The "no break of journey allowed" text should have been removed some time ago and carries no weight (and, in any case, you are not made aware of it until you have bought the ticket).

You can safely disregard it and might also wish to ask TPE to remove it.

There is also absolutely no evidence of increased levels of fraud compared with orange magstripe tickets, either.
Would this be linked to one of the two gate suppliers product not being able to cope with break of journey using barcoded tickets?
 

paul1609

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Is it because in some parts of the country there are flows that are enabled for etickets because the barriers have scanners (or there are no barriers) but the flows to intermediate stations are not.
For instance on my trips to football Appledore (Kent) (Southern) I can buy an e ticket to Fratton (SWR) but not to intermediate stations like Worthing (Southern) which have barriers with no scanners. Where there is no scanner at either end Off Peak e tickets must be open to abuse as there is as far as I can see no way of checking if the return portion of the e ticket has been used previously.
 

alistairlees

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Would this be linked to one of the two gate suppliers product not being able to cope with break of journey using barcoded tickets?
No, it was just the perceived experimental nature of eTickets at The time. The roll out of eTickets is not being affected by the capability or otherwise of barriers to cope with break of journey and, in any case, some software improvements are being made (though they will never get to all barriers at all possible intermediate stations recognising all possible types of ticket - whether fulfilled to eTicket or CCST - that are valid for intermediate break of journey).
 

alistairlees

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Is it because in some parts of the country there are flows that are enabled for etickets because the barriers have scanners (or there are no barriers) but the flows to intermediate stations are not.
For instance on my trips to football Appledore (Kent) (Southern) I can buy an e ticket to Fratton (SWR) but not to intermediate stations like Worthing (Southern) which have barriers with no scanners. Where there is no scanner at either end Off Peak e tickets must be open to abuse as there is as far as I can see no way of checking if the return portion of the e ticket has been used previously.
No, that’s a different reason. GTR have only enabled eTickets on flows that are either I hated or that are large stations that are fitted with gates that are fitted with barcode readers. Medium-sized stations that have gates but are not fitted with barcode readers are not enabled for eTickets. This will change though.
 

Wallsendmag

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No, it was just the perceived experimental nature of eTickets at The time. The roll out of eTickets is not being affected by the capability or otherwise of barriers to cope with break of journey and, in any case, some software improvements are being made (though they will never get to all barriers at all possible intermediate stations recognising all possible types of ticket - whether fulfilled to eTicket or CCST - that are valid for intermediate break of journey).
i think we’ve got break of journey fairly well nailed on our S&B gates
 

Camden

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The biggest problem I see with e-tickets is the slowdown they produce at the gate line as people get their phones out to scan, some have to fiddle and get their screen on, and there is the issue of correct positioning.

If at a busy station every third person is using an e-ticket rather than a tap, that third person could easily take four or five times the time to pass through that barrier as a tapper. That's a heck of a lot of lost throughout capacity, especially if you're a station that already struggles with bottlenecks.

I would expect this aspect is the reason why some locations are not keen to get involved, and would prefer to pursue getting as many people as possible tapping, and keeping the barrier-efficient card stock until it's not an issue.
 

mikeg

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I think the point maybe was if they don't refer to the routeing guide how is it sorted? Will it not interpret some breaks of journey incorrectly?
 

infobleep

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No we just sat down with knowledgeable people and worked our way through it.
I can see the day when someone says the barrier isn't accepting my ticket and the gate staff goes but the barrier is programmed to accept breaks of journeys so your ticket must not be valid.

The ticket is of course valid according to the routing guide but staff are insistent it's only valid if the ticket barrier says so.
 

Wallsendmag

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The biggest problem I see with e-tickets is the slowdown they produce at the gate line as people get their phones out to scan, some have to fiddle and get their screen on, and there is the issue of correct positioning.

If at a busy station every third person is using an e-ticket rather than a tap, that third person could easily take four or five times the time to pass through that barrier as a tapper. That's a heck of a lot of lost throughout capacity, especially if you're a station that already struggles with bottlenecks.

I would expect this aspect is the reason why some locations are not keen to get involved, and would prefer to pursue getting as many people as possible tapping, and keeping the barrier-efficient card stock until it's not an issue.
We've just spent a large amount on an updated scanner for the majority of our gates as shown on this image. The reading speed is vastly superior to the previous scanner.
 

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alistairlees

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We've just spent a large amount on an updated scanner for the majority of our gates as shown on this image. The reading speed is vastly superior to the previous scanner.
Indeed. The positioning of the smart logo, next to the only non-smart element of the reader (I'm assuming that's the slot for a magstripe ticket, above it), seems a little odd though.
 

infobleep

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We've just spent a large amount on an updated scanner for the majority of our gates as shown on this image. The reading speed is vastly superior to the previous scanner.
If you don't mind me asking, how much did the upgrade cost? I can't imagine all TOCs would want to spend money upgrading their ticket barriers. Some will obviously have more barriers than others and thus incur greater costs.
 
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Wallsendmag

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If you don't mind me asking, how did the upgrade cost? I can't imagine all TOCs would want to spend money upgrading their ticket barriers. Some will obviously have more barriers than others and thus incur greater costs.
An eye watering amount.But from our perspective the gates are 10 years old and haven't had much if anything spent on them in the way of upgrades during that time. If we are really serious about removing mag stripe then we needed to spend the money on this upgrade.
 

infobleep

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The statement on the TPE eTicket that "no break of journey is allowed" is not anything to do with the app - it's the way in which the TOC has asked its TIS supplier (Worldline) to implement certain eTicket formats (there are different formats for walk up, Advance, season, and a few other things). It's not actually in the specification at all, and has simply been hardcoded to appear on the eTicket; whether it appears or not doesn't bear any relation to the journey you make, the restriction code on the ticket, or even what type of walk up ticket it is.

The hardcoding dates back to the time (a few years ago) when eTickets were considered to be a trial or experiment. Some TOCs were concerned that the break of journey would generate increased opportunities for fraud using eTickets compared to using traditional orange magstripe tickets. eTickets are, of course, no longer an experiment or a trial and are available on virtually all routes (except for those that cross London, and some TOC geographic areas) now. The "no break of journey allowed" text should have been removed some time ago and carries no weight (and, in any case, you are not made aware of it until you have bought the ticket).

You can safely disregard it and might also wish to ask TPE to remove it.

There is also absolutely no evidence of increased levels of fraud compared with orange magstripe tickets, either.
I never think hardcoding values is a good idea myself. When I studied databases on my Geographic Information System Msc, we were taught not to hardcode values.
 

Bletchleyite

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I see that's still "face down" - as an end user I find "face up" readers easier to use as you can see what's on the screen to line it up. Also it appears to still be laser based, camera based readers with a screen showing what's being read makes it easier to line up.
 

infobleep

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An eye watering amount.But from our perspective the gates are 10 years old and haven't had much if anything spent on them in the way of upgrades during that time. If we are really serious about removing mag stripe then we needed to spend the money on this upgrade.
Well not everyone will want to spend that eye watering amount. Some may not even be able to afford it.
 

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