Overcrowding at St. Pancras (EMR) 03/12/23

[norbitonflyer]

How do you get Delay Repay if you are denied boarding and (so that) the train left on time?

The solution to "rear full and standing, front empty" is to let people onto the platform before the train arrives. Waterloo suburban is very bad at this - is it a coincidence that EMR and SWT both used to be run by Stagecoach?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The whole set up is a compromise. I’m not saying it’s perfect, and people are free to pick holes, but I doubt anybody here could come up with anything better given the infrastructure limitations as described! The use of poorly trained, surly agency staff to manage the queue doesn’t help matters, but that’s now common practice across the industry

There's only one nice way ("nice") to deal with this situation - actual compulsory reservations with a bit of "overselling" using counted places, and turning people away who don't have one. There's plenty of precedent for BR doing this at Euston on the evening of 24/12, so there shouldn't be a massive problem with doing it in exceptional situations like where the MML is the only way to get north due to strikes which are known about in advance. Better to know you can't travel as it's full than rock up at St Pancras and find you're unable to then. Strikes must be notified a minimum of two weeks in advance, so there's time to plan - it's not the same as on-the-day disruption.

 

[Senex]

As noted above when the queueing system is in place the trains are dispatched when judged to be full and the access closed at that point (or just prior to). Yes it’s inconvenient to get to the head of the queue as this happens and miss one (as noted above the fact the meridians show their destination below the rear windscreen doesn’t help as people will try to push through the gates even when being told “sorry you’ve missed that one”.).

How does the queuing system distinguish between those who have seat reservations for a particular train (and who therefore are entitled to assume that they can turn up 5 minutes before departure and expect to get on) and those without reservations who might be at the head of the queue by arriving half an hour or more early to be sure of gettinga seat? If you have a train-specific reservation and end up so far back in the queue that the gates are closed before you reach them, that seems (to put it mildly) a very customer-unfriendly practice.

 

[edwin_m]

How does the queuing system distinguish between those who have seat reservations for a particular train (and who therefore are entitled to assume that they can turn up 5 minutes before departure and expect to get on) and those without reservations who might be at the head of the queue by arriving half an hour or more early to be sure of gettinga seat? If you have a train-specific reservation and end up so far back in the queue that the gates are closed before you reach them, that seems (to put it mildly) a very customer-unfriendly practice.

You have separate queues for reserved and unreserved for each train, barriers to separate them and signs and/or marshals at the tail of the queue so people know which one they are joining. Eurostar did this (not the reserved/unreserved part) downstairs at St Pancras when they were having issues with long check-in times and their lounge being full.

 

[MCR247]

You have separate queues for reserved and unreserved for each train, barriers to separate them and signs and/or marshals at the tail of the queue so people know which one they are joining. Eurostar did this (not the reserved/unreserved part) downstairs at St Pancras when they were having issues with long check-in times and their lounge being full.

Is this something EMR do?

 

[Sealink]

The EMR situation at St. Pancras is pretty poor, even on quiet days it feels like they have been given a tiny space, which, given the vastness of the station is weird.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The EMR situation at St. Pancras is pretty poor, even on quiet days it feels like they have been given a tiny space, which, given the vastness of the station is weird.

Much as it looks nice, it's a shopping mall that happens to have had some railway stations hidden badly in it. None of the transport infrastructure really works very well.

 

[edwin_m]

It's a few months since I visited St Pancras, so I don't know what they are doing now, but at the time they just had people gathering on the west side of the concourse (with the east side cordoned off for arrivals, taking over half the space because they need to get to the centrally-placed down escalators).

The high level walkways heading south from this area seem ideal for queueing, as they have few non-EMR passenger flows. Anyone arriving from the up escalators or the lift would be directed to parallel queues on the west side, or if their train was already boarding they would be sent up the east (champagne bar) side.

 

[43066]

The solution to "rear full and standing, front empty" is to let people onto the platform before the train arrives.

Not a good (or safe) solution at St Pancras during disruption given the single entry point, narrow gate line and huge numbers who would then meet on the platform in opposing directions. Plus aforementioned issues trains arriving alongside dangerously crowded island platforms.

There's only one nice way ("nice") to deal with this situation - actual compulsory reservations with a bit of "overselling" using counted places, and turning people away who don't have one. There's plenty of precedent for BR doing this at Euston on the evening of 24/12, so there shouldn't be a massive problem with doing it in exceptional situations like where the MML is the only way to get north due to strikes which are known about in advance. Better to know you can't travel as it's full than rock up at St Pancras and find you're unable to then. Strikes must be notified a minimum of two weeks in advance, so there's time to plan - it's not the same as on-the-day disruption.

The trouble with treating trains like airliners is that you then end up only carrying a fraction of the possible numbers. The queueing system means people will almost certainly be able to travel, albeit after queuing, and not on the “correct” train. This is balanced by TMs not pernickety about reservations, advance tickets and so on. The objective is just to safely move as many people as possible

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Much as it looks nice, it's a shopping mall that happens to have had some railway stations hidden badly in it. None of the transport infrastructure really works very well.

Yes, this is an excellent description.
All style and little substance, St. P.

 

[43066]

How does the queuing system distinguish between those who have seat reservations for a particular train (and who therefore are entitled to assume that they can turn up 5 minutes before departure and expect to get on) and those without reservations who might be at the head of the queue by arriving half an hour or more early to be sure of gettinga seat? If you have a train-specific reservation and end up so far back in the queue that the gates are closed before you reach them, that seems (to put it mildly) a very customer-unfriendly practice.

It doesn’t, hence why there isn’t as much attention paid to this kind of thing when queuing is in operation. The general approach is that anyone who has a ticket will be allowed to travel wherever they’re sitting on whatever train they end up on.

 

[Mike395]

One thought I had having looked at Google Maps a while back - I wonder if one medium-term solution could be to make a safe exit-only route to street level using what are currently fire exits halfway down each of P1-4. That way, during disruption/strikes/engineering they could open these to make queue management much easier in the main upper concourse with the flow of people being largely one-way?

 

[43055]

How do you get Delay Repay if you are denied boarding and (so that) the train left on time?

The solution to "rear full and standing, front empty" is to let people onto the platform before the train arrives. Waterloo suburban is very bad at this - is it a coincidence that EMR and SWT both used to be run by Stagecoach?

The train mentioned in post 1 arrived at 1135 and departed at 1302. Personally I wouldn't suggest letting people on the platform before everyone gets off as it is bad enough when a service arrives.

 

[43066]

One thought I had having looked at Google Maps a while back - I wonder if one medium-term solution could be to make a safe exit-only route to street level using what are currently fire exits halfway down each of P1-4. That way, during disruption/strikes/engineering they could open these to make queue management much easier in the main upper concourse with the flow of people being largely one-way?

A good idea, actually.

It also doubles as the platform entrance to the crew depot (and associated office suite) so there would no doubt be security concerns, and remodelling required. The fire exit ends up on Midland Road, adjacent to the taxi rank.

Security is completely OTT at St Pancras, so I can imagine there would be a strong reluctance from Network Rail to let Joe Public into the bowels of the station.

EDIT: there’s also a stairway and lift at the north end of the platforms used by Rail Gourmet, no idea whether anything could be done with that (and the same security worries would no doubt arise).

 

[greyman42]

How do you get Delay Repay if you are denied boarding and (so that) the train left on time?

You would apply for the minutes between that train due to arrive at your destination and the actual time the train you board getting you to your destination.

 

[baz962]

A good idea, actually.

It also doubles as the platform entrance to the crew depot (and associated office suite) so there would no doubt be security concerns, and remodelling required. The fire exit ends up on Midland Road, adjacent to the taxi rank.

Security is completely OTT at St Pancras, so I can imagine there would be a strong reluctance from Network Rail to let Joe Public into the bowels of the station.

EDIT: there’s also a stairway and lift at the north end of the platforms used by Rail Gourmet, no idea whether anything could be done with that (and the same security worries would no doubt arise).

Im guessing the security being OTT would also be because it's an international station. You would need some serious remodeling and or security to stop people tailgating and getting into the train crew area and although straight out is onto midland road , people could take the other turn and end up in the carpark. Probably be tiresome for train crew going downstairs for a PNB at busy times , especially a minimum one.

 

[sheff1]

The alternative is it sits in the platform with the rear unit getting more and more crowded to the point where it’s unsafe

The alternative is that 'authorised persons' block the rear doors, preventing more people boarding and directing them further down the platform whilst also telling them there is no need to rush as the train will not leave without them. And, before people start claiming "that can't be done" I have witnessed it being done more than once, with one occasion being at St Pancras itself (old version).

You have, of course, highlighted a major issue here:

The use of poorly trained, surly agency staff to manage the queue doesn’t help matters, but that’s now common practice across the industry

and one which I would have expected a risk assessment to pick up and prevent.

How does the queuing system distinguish between those who have seat reservations for a particular train (and who therefore are entitled to assume that they can turn up 5 minutes before departure and expect to get on) and those without reservations who might be at the head of the queue by arriving half an hour or more early to be sure of gettinga seat? If you have a train-specific reservation and end up so far back in the queue that the gates are closed before you reach them, that seems (to put it mildly) a very customer-unfriendly practice.

Other places deal with similar situations easily enough - priority queues, ticket (reservation) holder and non ticket (no reservation) holders etc.

 

[bramling]

Much as it looks nice, it's a shopping mall that happens to have had some railway stations hidden badly in it. None of the transport infrastructure really works very well.

Yes it’s never worked particularly well. The whole downstairs part has way too many conflicting flows, not helped by all the retail (much of which is tat). Meanwhile the EMR part in particular feels like a complete afterthought - bad enough during normal days, but awful during any kind of disruption. The Southeastern side isn’t much better but somehow seems to work slightly better.

 

[class 9]

Why exactly do the doors have to be closed if there is no crew on board? Couldn't the previous crew boot up the reservations for the next working then just leave the doors released for boarding?

And why is people standing on the platform not acceptable, when standing on the concourse is considered OK?

If it's come in ECS that will generally be driver only, so no trip will be entered into the TMS. Doors are not released until the trip has been entered, otherwise they'll be no reservations showing or the external PIS displays.

 

[norbitonflyer]

You would apply for the minutes between that train due to arrive at your destination and the actual time the train you board getting you to your destination.

How do you prove -
a: that you arrived at the station a reasonable amount of time before the scheduled departure
b: that it left without you?

Especially if you have an open ticket

 

[ChrisC]

The alternative is that 'authorised persons' block the rear doors, preventing more people boarding and directing them further down the platform whilst also telling them there is no need to rush as the train will not leave without them. And, before people start claiming "that can't be done" I have witnessed it being done more than once, with one occasion being at St Pancras itself (old version).

I had been wondering why that isn’t being done as I have been reading this thread. I didn’t like posting a suggestion of that because it seemed such a simple solution and I thought I must be missing something.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Not a good (or safe) solution at St Pancras during disruption given the single entry point, narrow gate line and huge numbers who would then meet on the platform in opposing directions.

The objective is just to safely move as many people as possible

.... which is not acheived if trains are leaving half empty because the rear is full and people are not given enough time to get to the front?

Some termini have entrances at more than one point along the platforms - Kings Cross, Paddington, Fenchurch Street and Manchester Piccadilly are examples, as indeed is the Eurostar part of St Pancras. This helps to even out the distribution of passengers along departing trains (and indeed arriving ones). Waterloo has improved although the second entrances are too close to the concourse to help much (and until recently the only stairwells faced the wrong way so people had to squeeze past them to reach either them or the main concourse) but an opportunity was missed when the platforms were extended to add an entrance on Westminster Bridge Road - whiuch would surely have found favour with the railway's political and civil service masters across the bridge in Westminster.

 

[Dr Hoo]

There's only one nice way ("nice") to deal with this situation - actual compulsory reservations with a bit of "overselling" using counted places, and turning people away who don't have one. There's plenty of precedent for BR doing this at Euston on the evening of 24/12, so there shouldn't be a massive problem with doing it in exceptional situations like where the MML is the only way to get north due to strikes which are known about in advance. Better to know you can't travel as it's full than rock up at St Pancras and find you're unable to then. Strikes must be notified a minimum of two weeks in advance, so there's time to plan - it's not the same as on-the-day disruption.

Much as it looks nice, it's a shopping mall that happens to have had some railway stations hidden badly in it. None of the transport infrastructure really works very well.

Yes, this is an excellent description.
All style and little substance, St. P.

One thought I had having looked at Google Maps a while back - I wonder if one medium-term solution could be to make a safe exit-only route to street level using what are currently fire exits halfway down each of P1-4. That way, during disruption/strikes/engineering they could open these to make queue management much easier in the main upper concourse with the flow of people being largely one-way?

Well, the St Pancras haters are out in force today but I still can't understand why.

Since 1995, when I moved to Northamptonshire before ending up in the Hope Valley, St Pancras has been my main London station. I commuted through it almost daily for 19 years, all through the re-build, and extensively for leisure at weekends, late evenings and first thing in the morning. I have passed through thousands of times, through the post-Hatfield meltdown, London bombings, Olympics, engineering works and industrial action.

I have never missed a train because of 'late boarding' or queues. Those that I have missed have been all down to me failing to get the station 'on time'.

I have never found the barrier staff to be anything other than courteous (and am on first name terms with some of them).

I have witnessed St Pancras grow from being the quietest London terminal (apart from Marylebone and Broad Street) through to be ahead of King's Cross, at least pre-covid.

I can well remember how easy (?) it used to be to schlep across to Waterloo for a Eurostar or to the extremities of Pentonville Road to get a Thameslink to Gatwick or have to use the tube to link up with a Southeastern service out to many areas of Kent.

Particularly now that I live in a remote rural area in the Peak District the shops are a 'lifesaver' in terms of being being able to get things that are hard to come by in local villages. (There are other needs in life besides hiking gear, blue john jewellery and Bakewell cakes/puddings/pastries!) So a pharmacy, plenty of celebration cards and small hospitality gifts - flowers, wine, chocolates, a book or scented candle and so on. I don't buy 'tat'.

The range of eateries and licensed premises is fantastic. i've had many quick/informal business meetings in most of them over the years whilst passing through. So easy for anyone in London to get to.

Most recent experiences? Friday evening after family get-together in London. EMR section of station under unforeseen pressure from ECML disruption because of OHLE damage. Everyone possible squeezed onto next train to Sheffield, which was held a few minutes to optimise this. Then Monday afternoon. Parallel queue lanes for Luton Airport/Corby, Nottingham and Sheffield. The Luton/Corby electric loaded first and away. The xx05 to Nottingham ready next and started boarding. I slipped out of the Sheffield queue and popped into Greggs to grab some refreshments. Then the xx02 to Sheffield was announced and everyone cleared onto that with a comfortable punctual departure. All very slick with no drama.

At one stage during the rebuilding, when Thameslink and MML were operating temporarily onto the East Side, I do remember exiting via the 'half way fire exit stairs' but this wasn't an expedient that was used for long.

It's my favourite large station by a country mile and it just seems to handle arriving, departing and interchanging passengers in all directions with both style and substance.

Best of luck to anybody who wants to impose compulsory reservations for intermediate stations to Corby and when Thameslink are diverting into the High Level.

 

[Mikw]

Well, the St Pancras haters are out in force today but I still can't understand why.

Since 1995, when I moved to Northamptonshire before ending up in the Hope Valley, St Pancras has been my main London station. I commuted through it almost daily for 19 years, all through the re-build, and extensively for leisure at weekends, late evenings and first thing in the morning. I have passed through thousands of times, through the post-Hatfield meltdown, London bombings, Olympics, engineering works and industrial action.

I have never missed a train because of 'late boarding' or queues. Those that I have missed have been all down to me failing to get the station 'on time'.

I have never found the barrier staff to be anything other than courteous (and am on first name terms with some of them).

I have witnessed St Pancras grow from being the quietest London terminal (apart from Marylebone and Broad Street) through to be ahead of King's Cross, at least pre-covid.

I can well remember how easy (?) it used to be to schlep across to Waterloo for a Eurostar or to the extremities of Pentonville Road to get a Thameslink to Gatwick or have to use the tube to link up with a Southeastern service out to many areas of Kent.

Particularly now that I live in a remote rural area in the Peak District the shops are a 'lifesaver' in terms of being being able to get things that are hard to come by in local villages. (There are other needs in life besides hiking gear, blue john jewellery and Bakewell cakes/puddings/pastries!) So a pharmacy, plenty of celebration cards and small hospitality gifts - flowers, wine, chocolates, a book or scented candle and so on. I don't buy 'tat'.

The range of eateries and licensed premises is fantastic. i've had many quick/informal business meetings in most of them over the years whilst passing through. So easy for anyone in London to get to.

Most recent experiences? Friday evening after family get-together in London. EMR section of station under unforeseen pressure from ECML disruption because of OHLE damage. Everyone possible squeezed onto next train to Sheffield, which was held a few minutes to optimise this. Then Monday afternoon. Parallel queue lanes for Luton Airport/Corby, Nottingham and Sheffield. The Luton/Corby electric loaded first and away. The xx05 to Nottingham ready next and started boarding. I slipped out of the Sheffield queue and popped into Greggs to grab some refreshments. Then the xx02 to Sheffield was announced and everyone cleared onto that with a comfortable punctual departure. All very slick with no drama.

At one stage during the rebuilding, when Thameslink and MML were operating temporarily onto the East Side, I do remember exiting via the 'half way fire exit stairs' but this wasn't an expedient that was used for long.

It's my favourite large station by a country mile and it just seems to handle arriving, departing and interchanging passengers in all directions with both style and substance.

Best of luck to anybody who wants to impose compulsory reservations for intermediate stations to Corby and when Thameslink are diverting into the High Level.

I broadly agree with this, i don't think St Pancras is bad at all. Yes, it's crowded, and busy, but i've had few problems, even on strike days with queing system in place.
Some solutions would probably lead to more cost - i almost expect someone to suggest an Alton Towers fasttrack system, where rich people can pay extra to escape the inconvenience.
The current system works out ok on "normal" days.
Yes, it's a pain on strike and engineering days, and there's been a lot of those recently, but they're usually the exception rather than the rule

 

[Mzzzs]

I am not sure if the 810 will solve much. What really needs to happen is an increase in capacity and a more efficient passenger flow at STP when other mainlines are closed.
Dont think STP is as bad as people make out here.

My plan would involve some cross-operator cooperation, such as the fast Nottingham and Sheffield services being run by 9-car trains. LNER trains would also extend services up to LNER destinations. Then the stopping Nottingham and Sheffield services would be lengthened to 10 cars and 12 cars for EMR Connect. However, the railways are not sensible, so you may not see this in the future or any proper plan.

 

[MCR247]

My plan would involve some cross-operator cooperation, such as the fast Nottingham and Sheffield services being run by 9-car trains. LNER trains would also extend services up to LNER destinations. Then the stopping Nottingham and Sheffield services would be lengthened to 10 cars and 12 cars for EMR Connect. However, the railways are not sensible, so you may not see this in the future or any proper plan.

Whilst I agree with the principle of longer EMR trains generally (although those numbers are very optimistic) I’m not sure I see the connection between this and cross operator cooperation?

 

[AlbertBeale]

One thought I had having looked at Google Maps a while back - I wonder if one medium-term solution could be to make a safe exit-only route to street level using what are currently fire exits halfway down each of P1-4. That way, during disruption/strikes/engineering they could open these to make queue management much easier in the main upper concourse with the flow of people being largely one-way?

That would never be allowed because it would let arrivals leave the station without having to walk past the shops!

 

[jagardner1984]

An interesting thought I've had previously at Euston is why in the days of multi level stations, the normal place to release people onto the platform is not the middle, and then via stairs / ramp / escalator to platform level. that gives you a way of separating passengers coming in and out. It would also give much more circulation space if the over platform area was decked in some way. I guess New street does this to some extent ?

Where there is a queuing system and effectively (for whatever reason) reservations go out of the window, the one logical thing I could see that railways could take from the airlines is phased boarding - whereby you'd release the doors of Coach 1 (furthest north) with platform staff to direct the first 50 or whatever people onto it, with Coaches 2 to 10 still locked, then as that reaches capacity you additionally release Coach 2 (i.e. people who wish to stand in coach 1 can still do so), and onwards to the end of the train, when you dispatch it. Obviously you'd have a "Special Assistance" lane for anyone with specific boarding needs. It would seem to me this would maximise use of the available space, and prevents the "empty at the front, crush loaded in the back" problem.

I must say to slightly reinforce this - I arrived on a diverted TL on Sunday night very off peak about 2030 (the core was closed), and there was a very considerable queue at the barriers waiting to get on - with various unpleasantness to platform staff from people trying to sneak through the exit barriers. One issue I observed was that whilst the barrier line was fully closed for departing passengers, and the exit gates left wide open for incoming passengers, there were a lot of passengers (including me) who were on contactless and thus needed to scan out - with only a couple of validators to the right of those exit gates - further delaying the flow - well beyond the realms of railway control - but you wonder if in future via Apple Pay / Google Pay etc, there would be a "validate and exit" that would geolocate you without physically touching a scanner on platform. It seems the on platform infrastructure is based very much on the basis of most people not needing to scan out, however with the roll out of contactless and increased use of it, that is increasingly not correct.

Personally - whilst I can totally see the need for a mix of food, book shops, coffee, stationery in a station, I have previously wondered whether there need to be quite so many scented candle retailers in a place pushed for space, but perhaps that simply displays what a heathen I must be ! It seems strange to me when EMR passengers are blocking so much concourse space, and Eurostar services restricted by customs space, that there isn't more of a move to improve circulation and remove some of the retail outlets.

 

[Richardr]

One thing they did do at St Pancras a while after opening is change the escalators up to the East Midlands platforms - on opening they were all one up one down. Now the nearest to the trains is two down only and the next one along is two up only. A small improvement to separate passengers arriving from the scrum departing, but it does indicate that not enough thought about the issue was made originally, and that there is little that can be done in terms of space.

 

[Kite159]

I must say to slightly reinforce this - I arrived on a diverted TL on Sunday night very off peak about 2030 (the core was closed), and there was a very considerable queue at the barriers waiting to get on - with various unpleasantness to platform staff from people trying to sneak through the exit barriers.

I saw this when they only removed the barrier for a Luton bound train a minute or so before it was due to depart creating a rush as everybody jumped on in the rear coach to avoid the doors slamming close.

The MML platforms are a mere afterthought to the shopping centre known as St Pancras, where a champagne bar takes priority over rail passengers