Overcrowding on North Wales Coast When The Sun Shines This Summer

[47827]

Presumably Avanti also have crewing issues which is resulting in their reduced timetables until September.

That's possible, but probably not as likely as it would have been in previous periods when staff were more frequently having to isolate.

Guards shouldn't be too difficult (Holyhead mostly) with the reduced North Wales timetable and drivers are still all from the North West. But the loss of virtually all the Crewe to Euston legs of the Avanti Holyhead/Chester route would probably release adequate drivers to run at least a few more services between Crewe/Bangor/Holyhead. It would probably take a number of weeks to plan and some diagram changes for the Voyagers (tighten turnarounds at Crewe) but you could probably have a "most hours" option between Bangor and Crewe with a few trains off and back to Holyhead as per the current shuttles. There are also some Crewe to Chester Avanti shuttles which effectively could be merged into a most hours option with a reasonable length train. You would want the DFT, Welsh Government and TFW to at least liaise on such a plan assuming we can predict overcrowding on the Chester to Bangor section is going to be an issue for a few months this year during the daytime. Appreciate it doesn't help regarding Manchester unless an Avanti shuttle connected off the Leeds services to divert some footfall onto those. It would be very slightly similar to XC being pulled in by the DFT to run Bristol to Swindon shuttles recently to help GW but for entirely different reasons.

I reiterate, I know the reasons that would/could be listed as to why my own idea can't happen but to me it would be a darn good idea that is more realistic (if the collective parties could actually do it) and not simply passing the buck unfairly entirely onto TFW with Ffestiniog buses or inventing units/more exotic options to strengthen everything.

 

[mrd269697]

There is fleet shortage and a training backlog from what I recall, but the north Wales coast line has always had an abysmal service. Towns like Abergele and Shotton are only served by some trains (and serve relatively large conurbations), Conwy is barely served at all and there is a very irregular frequency which isn’t easy to remember and I believe to last train eastbound leaves Bangor as early as 9pm. Needs a lot of improvement to make it attractive to passengers. Perhaps a few advertised express services (like the ‘premier service’ between Holyhead and Cardiff and more regular stoppers, such as the proposed Liverpool - Llandudno service, which actually have consistent calling patterns.
Also, some of the halts in Anglesey are still closed, any signs of when trains will call at these again?
The people of Llanfairpwllgwyngll haven’t had a train service for 14 months.

further down the line I’d like to see a station at Holywell open. Big 14 mile station-less stretch between Flint and Prestatyn. Could function as a parkway as it’s over a mile from the aforementioned town.

 

[PHILIPE]

What has been happening this week is that many of the 158 worked trains along the Coast have been strengthened by a pair of 153s but on the down side they have been unable to call at Conwy due to COVID restrictions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What has been happening this week is that many of the 158 worked trains along the Coast have been strengthened by a pair of 153s but on the down side they have been unable to call at Conwy due to COVID restrictions.

I assume that's because the stricter Welsh COVID regs mean they can't use local door? Still, Conwy isn't far from Llandudno Junction, so if that's what has to be done to make it work, that's acceptable, a single bus could shuttle back and forth to the Junction easily enough.

It's funny how that varies around the UK. The Marston Vale guards are mostly working from the passenger cabin, and because they open sooner passengers are often using the same door as the guard, even though they can be (and sometimes are) worked from the back cab.

 

[PHILIPE]

I assume that's because the stricter Welsh COVID regs mean they can't use local door? Still, Conwy isn't far from Llandudno Junction, so if that's what has to be done to make it work, that's acceptable, a single bus could shuttle back and forth to the Junction easily enough.

It's funny how that varies around the UK. The Marston Vale guards are mostly working from the passenger cabin, and because they open sooner passengers are often using the same door as the guard, even though they can be (and sometimes are) worked from the back cab.

That's right, there is no SDO on TFW during COVID. I'm not sure if it's so much the Government guidance or, as I've heard, the unions.

 

[Watershed]

I assume that's because the stricter Welsh COVID regs mean they can't use local door?

TfW suggest that the Welsh Regulations prevent SDO or local door operations. That is, of course, quite untrue: the requirement is to take all reasonable measures to ensure 2m social distancing.

It's not reasonable to expect TfW to stop providing train services to the affected stations - particularly when the alternative (a taxi or bus) just as likely fails to meet the 2m "rule".

The statutory Welsh guidance is quite clear that 2m will not always be reasonably practicable, and that if it's not practicable, it just means you have to take other mitigating steps to compensate for the "increased" risk.

The fact that ScotRail have continued to serve all their equivalent stations throughout the pandemic, under similar legal duties, rather gives the game away.

Still, "the law stops us" is always a convenient excuse...

 

[PHILIPE]

TfW suggest that the Welsh Regulations prevent SDO or local door operations. That is, of course, quite untrue: the requirement is to take all reasonable measures to ensure 2m social distancing.

It's not reasonable to expect TfW to stop providing train services to the affected stations - particularly when the alternative (a taxi or bus) just as likely fails to meet the 2m "rule".

The statutory Welsh guidance is quite clear that 2m will not always be reasonably practicable, and that if it's not practicable, it just means you have to take other mitigating steps to compensate for the "increased" risk.

The fact that ScotRail have continued to serve all their equivalent stations throughout the pandemic, under similar legal duties, rather gives the game away.

Still, "the law stops us" is always a convenient excuse...

As I mentioned I'm sure I read somewhere it was due to Union pressure. I can't recall the actual details or turn anything up but early in the pandemic last year, TFW were caught out over the "essential journeys issue".

 

[Dai Corner]

As I mentioned I'm sure I read somewhere it was due to Union pressure. I can't recall the actual details or turn anything up but early in the pandemic last year, TFW were caught out over the "essential journeys issue".

The Unions fund the Labour Party which runs the Welsh Government which owns TfW, of course. It's perhaps not surprising that there is more union influence here than in England or Scotland.

 

[Kite159]

TfW suggest that the Welsh Regulations prevent SDO or local door operations. That is, of course, quite untrue: the requirement is to take all reasonable measures to ensure 2m social distancing.

It's not reasonable to expect TfW to stop providing train services to the affected stations - particularly when the alternative (a taxi or bus) just as likely fails to meet the 2m "rule".

The statutory Welsh guidance is quite clear that 2m will not always be reasonably practicable, and that if it's not practicable, it just means you have to take other mitigating steps to compensate for the "increased" risk.

The fact that ScotRail have continued to serve all their equivalent stations throughout the pandemic, under similar legal duties, rather gives the game away.

Still, "the law stops us" is always a convenient excuse...

Not only ScotRail for the stations north of Inverness which are local door only. GWR have continued to serve the likes of Dilton Marsh, Avoncliff & the ones on the Heart of Wessex which are local door only.

Plus Southern with the 4 coach 171s which are SDO on all the diesel only stations.

 

[wobman]

TfW suggest that the Welsh Regulations prevent SDO or local door operations. That is, of course, quite untrue: the requirement is to take all reasonable measures to ensure 2m social distancing.

It's not reasonable to expect TfW to stop providing train services to the affected stations - particularly when the alternative (a taxi or bus) just as likely fails to meet the 2m "rule".

The statutory Welsh guidance is quite clear that 2m will not always be reasonably practicable, and that if it's not practicable, it just means you have to take other mitigating steps to compensate for the "increased" risk.

The fact that ScotRail have continued to serve all their equivalent stations throughout the pandemic, under similar legal duties, rather gives the game away.

Still, "the law stops us" is always a convenient excuse...

The TFW rolling stock aren't equipped with SDO so the guards would have to walk through the train to open the local door at these stations.

Conwy is ok with a 2 car but anything over a 2 car it's a not to stop order, the other stations along the N Wales coast such as Llanfair PG & valley the are local door only. So it was agreed by TFW & the union that protects the guards due to the risks to the guards not to stop at them stations.

People seem to forget covid is a worldwide pandemic & many traincrew haven't even had 1 vaccine injection yet, to walk through a busy train numerous times a shift at distances much less than 2 metres in a confined environment then stand close to the passengers at a door then follow the same procedure Letting passengers in a train is not a safe method of working.

The conductors are doing a phased return going back through the trains soon, volunteers have finished a trial & it's now being rolled out for all conductors.

 

[Bikeman78]

TfW suggest that the Welsh Regulations prevent SDO or local door operations. That is, of course, quite untrue: the requirement is to take all reasonable measures to ensure 2m social distancing.

It's not reasonable to expect TfW to stop providing train services to the affected stations - particularly when the alternative (a taxi or bus) just as likely fails to meet the 2m "rule".

The statutory Welsh guidance is quite clear that 2m will not always be reasonably practicable, and that if it's not practicable, it just means you have to take other mitigating steps to compensate for the "increased" risk.

The fact that ScotRail have continued to serve all their equivalent stations throughout the pandemic, under similar legal duties, rather gives the game away.

Still, "the law stops us" is always a convenient excuse...

Meanwhile, GWR have trolleys on their trains selling food and drinks. Even in Wales!

 

[Jez]

There have been lots of people on twitter complaining today about overcrowding both on the marches and North Wales coast. One person complained about the 1031 Manchester to South Wales being 2 carriage and overcrowded. I dont get why its so busy at this time of day? I could understand the 1630 and 1730 being busy. Are they restricting the number of people who can board the train or is it just a free for all. I know they are offering reservations as a booked place but thats pointless if you arent giving out seat reservations.

 

[Jamie Price]

There have been lots of people on twitter complaining today about overcrowding both on the marches and North Wales coast. One person complained about the 1031 Manchester to South Wales being 2 carriage and overcrowded. I dont get why its so busy at this time of day? I could understand the 1630 and 1730 being busy. Are they restricting the number of people who can board the train or is it just a free for all. I know they are offering reservations as a booked place but thats pointless if you arent giving out seat reservations.

Fridays do seem to be a bit ridiculous at the moment, people heading off somewhere for the weekend, it must be difficult to prioritise one route over another for 3 cars over 2 cars, no restrictions on any of the trains that I've worked, although train crew can request not to stop orders if the train is overcrowded. Thankfully I haven't had to do this yet!

 

[6Gman]

One assumes TfW are not doing this out of malice or carelessness, so what's the cause?

Unit shortages and/or traincrew?
And why?

 

[wobman]

One assumes TfW are not doing this out of malice or carelessness, so what's the cause?

Unit shortages and/or traincrew?
And why?

Covid has caused all of the above

 

[craigybagel]

IIRC, even in pre Covid days the 1031 was booked for a 2 car anyway - and it rarely caused issues. Friday's have been very busy all day long over the last few weeks though, it's almost felt like normal after a year of empty trains.

 

[PHILIPE]

One assumes TfW are not doing this out of malice or carelessness, so what's the cause?

Unit shortages and/or traincrew?
And why?

Unit shortages have been ongoing for years and train services are being tailored to meet traincrew availability of which there is a shortage due to a backlog in training as a result of COVID which is also delaying new stock entering service.

 

[175001]

Saw it first hand this evening how busy it's getting.

1726 Chester - Holyhead, ex-Birmingham, arrived in, and everyone piles on. Full and standing in the aisles. No social distancing possible.

Its booked to attach 2 carriages in from the Junction to strengthen it. They were 20 mins late this evening, and made it worse when I noticed the "Non Multi" sticker on the attaching cab!

After tooing and froing, they decided to run it as two separate services, with the incompatible 2x153s fast to the Junction and on to Holyhead whilst the 158 carried on to the Junction calling at all its booked stops.

Not sure how busy it was on what was the stopper, but the units I were on was lightly loaded.

All credit to the crew and station staff for dealing with what was a testing situation

Yes it was a peak time on a Friday, but It's not even half term yet, and it's testing the network already.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So I've just read in MR that TfW are subleasing all their 170s to EMR...wha? Why can't work be done to clear these for the Coast line if the capacity is needed?

 

[PHILIPE]

So I've just read in MR that TfW are subleasing all their 170s to EMR...wha? Why can't work be done to clear these for the Coast line if the capacity is needed?

At a time when train crews are already stretched the last thing TFW want is to have to train whole Depots on a different form of traction. Did the article say anything about replacements for TFW ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

At a time when train crews are already stretched the last thing TFW want is to have to train whole Depots on a different form of traction.

Use them on the Valleys (which is where I believe they have been running them) and move 150s up north which I believe Chester do sign.

 

[PHILIPE]

Use them on the Valleys (which is where I believe they have been running them) and move 150s up north which I believe Chester do sign.

The Valley routes where they go are Maesteg and Ebbw Vale which are not part of the Cardiff Valley Network. You would still be in a similar position regarding the training of traincrews and also stopping every five minutes all day is something that 170s were not built for and does them no good.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Valley routes where they go are Maesreg and Ebbw Vale which are not part of the Cardiff Valley Network. You would still be in a similar position regarding the training of traincrews and also stopping every five minutes all day is something that 170s were not built for and does them no good.

I think TBH this is a "naysay" and a way could be found to make this work. This summer is going to be a slow-motion car crash on the North Wales Coast, and it needs people who will actively work to find solutions (see GWR with their 80x workarounds) and not naysayers to make it work.

And sending rolling stock elsewhere is nuts. They could at least have asked for some 158s in return, even if not the same number!

 

[adrock1976]

I recall that West Coast Railways (the Carnforth based hire outfit, not the InterCity West Coast operator Avanti/Virgin) ran a top and tail loco hauled set on the Oxenholme - Windermere shuttle a few years ago to help out Northern.

Could something similar be arranged for North Wales, subject to the West Coast drivers knowing the route?

 

[Llandudno]

I think TBH this is a "naysay" and a way could be found to make this work. This summer is going to be a slow-motion car crash on the North Wales Coast, and it needs people who will actively work to find solutions (see GWR with their 80x workarounds) and not naysayers to make it work.

And sending rolling stock elsewhere is nuts. They could at least have asked for some 158s in return, even if not the same number!

Had the misfortune to drive on the A55 this afternoon as can’t trust TfW at the moment, weather dreadful, very busy eastbound, but the queues in the westbound direction at Queensferry, around 4.30pm were horrendous!

Dread to think what it will be like next (bank holiday) weekend!

 

[Bikeman78]

I think TBH this is a "naysay" and a way could be found to make this work. This summer is going to be a slow-motion car crash on the North Wales Coast, and it needs people who will actively work to find solutions (see GWR with their 80x workarounds) and not naysayers to make it work.

And sending rolling stock elsewhere is nuts. They could at least have asked for some 158s in return, even if not the same number!

Unless it's changed there are only seven class 170 diagrams. Nine units ought to cover that so yes, lending three units to EMR in exchange for three 158s would be a sensible move. Assuming they have trained enough crew to use the 170s.

 

[PHILIPE]

Unless it's changed there are only seven class 170 diagrams. Nine units ought to cover that so yes, lending three units to EMR in exchange for three 158s would be a sensible move. Assuming they have trained enough crew to use the 170s.

EMR have been working 170s since last October. The thread is here:-

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/emr-class-170-updates.202522/page-9

They have no connection with North Wales

 

[Watershed]

The TFW rolling stock aren't equipped with SDO so the guards would have to walk through the train to open the local door at these stations.

Yes, just like ScotRail and numerous other operators have done throughout the pandemic.

Conwy is ok with a 2 car but anything over a 2 car it's a not to stop order, the other stations along the N Wales coast such as Llanfair PG & valley the are local door only. So it was agreed by TFW & the union that protects the guards due to the risks to the guards not to stop at them stations.

The circumstances might lead one to believe they just rolled over, without really considering the consequences, at the start of the pandemic, and are now struggling to agree a return to normality. Of course, I'm sure that couldn't possibly be the case!

People seem to forget covid is a worldwide pandemic

I don't see what relevance that has to whether TfW can do local door operations.

& many traincrew haven't even had 1 vaccine injection yet,

With vaccines now available to all over 35s, I presume we are to understand "minority" when you say "many"?

to walk through a busy train numerous times a shift at distances much less than 2 metres in a confined environment then stand close to the passengers at a door then follow the same procedure Letting passengers in a train is not a safe method of working.

The prevalence of Covid is now a fraction of what it was at the height of the pandemic. And yet local door is a perfectly safe method of working as far as other TOCs are concerned, and has been throughout the pandemic.

In any case, the 2m "rule" is not black and white. It would be 2m without any mitigations. I can think of several mitigations that are in place, or could be put in place, off the top of my head. Any "breach" of the "rule" is for a very short period in each instance - meaning that the risk of infection, even from an infectious passenger, is very low.

The conductors are doing a phased return going back through the trains soon, volunteers have finished a trial & it's now being rolled out for all conductors.

Glad to hear it. If I were a Welsh taxpayer, I would be very interested to hear an estimate of the fares that have gone uncollected as a result of the prolonged absence of revenue duties.

And I would want an independent investigation if it turned out that TfW had, under false pretences, stopped providing their lifeline service to local stations and key workers...

 

[craigybagel]

I think TBH this is a "naysay" and a way could be found to make this work. This summer is going to be a slow-motion car crash on the North Wales Coast, and it needs people who will actively work to find solutions (see GWR with their 80x workarounds) and not naysayers to make it work.

And sending rolling stock elsewhere is nuts. They could at least have asked for some 158s in return, even if not the same number!

You can think what you want, but Philipe tells the truth (as always). Staff in the North are fully stretched as it is between working the existing services, undergoing training on 230s and MKIV and route learning - there is no space at all to start training staff on 170s as well.

In any case, there is no mention as to when this transfer will happen. I'm not in the least surprised to hear mention of it, as it makes a lot of sense - the 170s are something of an oddball in the TfW fleet, and aren't especially suitable for the routes they're being used on now or the ones planned for their future. So long as it doesn't happen immediately, and there's something suitable lined up to replace them, it seems pretty sensible to me.

I suggest people show patience and wait to see what's actually happening before getting worked up.

 

[wobman]

Yes, just like ScotRail and numerous other operators have done throughout the pandemic.


The circumstances might lead one to believe they just rolled over, without really considering the consequences, at the start of the pandemic, and are now struggling to agree a return to normality. Of course, I'm sure that couldn't possibly be the case!


I don't see what relevance that has to whether TfW can do local door operations.


With vaccines now available to all over 35s, I presume we are to understand "minority" when you say "many"?


The prevalence of Covid is now a fraction of what it was at the height of the pandemic. And yet local door is a perfectly safe method of working as far as other TOCs are concerned, and has been throughout the pandemic.

In any case, the 2m "rule" is not black and white. It would be 2m without any mitigations. I can think of several mitigations that are in place, or could be put in place, off the top of my head. Any "breach" of the "rule" is for a very short period in each instance - meaning that the risk of infection, even from an infectious passenger, is very low.


Glad to hear it. If I were a Welsh taxpayer, I would be very interested to hear an estimate of the fares that have gone uncollected as a result of the prolonged absence of revenue duties.

And I would want an independent investigation if it turned out that TfW had, under false pretences, stopped providing their lifeline service to local stations and key workers...

Obviously TFW value their staffs health more than the other tocs that retained local door operations, if covid wasn't that contagious why have we had lockdowns & business closures !

Actually the stations effected on the N Wales coast by the covid restrictions have very low footfall.
So it made Sence to not stop, people forget traincrews have worked throughout all of the worldwide pandemic & many have been effected by contacting covid.
I know of staff with long covid & others that are still recovering many months later. Other TOCs have had depot outbreaks of covid & it's caused chaos in them locations.
Also trying to keep the 2 metres distance on a train is not easy & the conductors for TFW have yet go the equipment to check tickets, as they scan using a mobile phone.

TFW have also utilised their RPI staff throughout the network & it's up to the passengers to purchase a ticket before boarding. This are never as simple as some people perceive & blaming the traincrew unions is not beneficial as it's there job to protect the members interests.

Also Employing the threat of an independent investigation, the findings would be TFW have tried their best during an unprecedented worldwide pandemic that nobody could plan or forsee......