Overcrowding on North Wales Coast When The Sun Shines This Summer

[markymark2000]

Once again I feel like this is more proof that Transport for Wales Rail couldn't run a bath. Absolutely awful in every which way. Fully based on South Wales, don't give a hoot about North Wales. Shafting it at every single opportunity. I will do my upmost to avoid TFW and have done since their inception. They don't deserve a penny of my money after the way they treat passengers. Not a single care given though since the south is ok....

I'll defend the railways as much as I can and if I feel a company is in the right but TFW are dismal. I'd rather wait longer and get a slower Northern train than support TFW. That is how poor they are. Arriva Trains Wales set such high standards in my eyes, all shattered away to be thrown into an overcrowded heap by TFW which turns up when/as it pleases.

Dismal company. There's better standards in America than with TFW and that is saying something.

 

[Caaardiff]

Once again I feel like this is more proof that Transport for Wales Rail couldn't run a bath. Absolutely awful in every which way. Fully based on South Wales, don't give a hoot about North Wales. Shafting it at every single opportunity. I will do my upmost to avoid TFW and have done since their inception. They don't deserve a penny of my money after the way they treat passengers. Not a single care given though since the south is ok....

I'll defend the railways as much as I can and if I feel a company is in the right but TFW are dismal. I'd rather wait longer and get a slower Northern train than support TFW. That is how poor they are. Arriva Trains Wales set such high standards in my eyes, all shattered away to be thrown into an overcrowded heap by TFW which turns up when/as it pleases.

Dismal company. There's better standards in America than with TFW and that is saying something.

What exactly are your comments based on? Care to expand?

A lot of TfW's current issues actually stem from Arriva. As for the North/South issues, what is that based on?

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but to give such a scathing post about TfW without any substance is a bit pointless.

 

[Bikeman78]

What exactly are your comments based on? Care to expand?

A lot of TfW's current issues actually stem from Arriva. As for the North/South issues, what is that based on?

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but to give such a scathing post about TfW without any substance is a bit pointless.

I agree with the sentiment, TfW doesn't get to decide if it can keep the 143s, or the 153/9s for that matter. However, why blame Arriva? Their franchise finished 15 months before the PRM deadline. Why is anyone the least bit surprised that they weren't interested? The joys of the franchising system. The government should have taken the lead but they didn't bother.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but to give such a scathing post about TfW without any substance is a bit pointless.

On top of everything, the Transport Minister was a North Walian (Ken Skates, Clwyd South), but has been replaced by a South Walian (Vaughan Gething, Cardiff South/Penarth).
Ken at least knew the local issues in the north, Vaughan has it all to learn.

ATW didn't set a very high bar (though it was better than the prior incumbent, First North Western), but at least it was dependable.
The service up here has certainly deteriorated under TfW, for many complicated reasons, not all Covid-related
The continued delay in getting new trains into service is one of them.
Other TOCs seem to be making much better progress with their fleet plans.
TfW (both TOC and WG agency) management admitted to major issues at the point Keolis-Amey bowed out in February.

 

[craigybagel]

Once again I feel like this is more proof that Transport for Wales Rail couldn't run a bath. Absolutely awful in every which way. Fully based on South Wales, don't give a hoot about North Wales. Shafting it at every single opportunity. I will do my upmost to avoid TFW and have done since their inception. They don't deserve a penny of my money after the way they treat passengers. Not a single care given though since the south is ok....

I'll defend the railways as much as I can and if I feel a company is in the right but TFW are dismal. I'd rather wait longer and get a slower Northern train than support TFW. That is how poor they are. Arriva Trains Wales set such high standards in my eyes, all shattered away to be thrown into an overcrowded heap by TFW which turns up when/as it pleases.

Dismal company. There's better standards in America than with TFW and that is saying something.

And your suggestion for what to do better is?

I agree with the sentiment, TfW doesn't get to decide if it can keep the 143s, or the 153/9s for that matter. However, why blame Arriva? Their franchise finished 15 months before the PRM deadline. Why is anyone the least bit surprised that they weren't interested? The joys of the franchising system. The government should have taken the lead but they didn't bother.

Arriva were given a 15 years no growth franchise, which they followed to the letter. The fact it was clearly inadequate was down to the idiots who awarded the franchise.

They did make the authorities aware there was going to be a looming PRM crisis with such a late start with modifying trains to be compliant, but as it wasn't in their contract and nobody else seemed fussed about fixing things it's hard to blame them.

In general, whilst they didn't really do much good, it's hard to see how they did much bad either. You don't ever expect innovation from a company like Arriva.

On top of everything, the Transport Minister was a North Walian (Ken Skates, Clwyd South), but has been replaced by a South Walian (Vaughan Gething, Cardiff South/Penarth).
Ken at least knew the local issues in the north, Vaughan has it all to learn.

ATW didn't set a very high bar (though it was better than the prior incumbent, First North Western), but at least it was dependable.
The service up here has certainly deteriorated under TfW, for many complicated reasons, not all Covid-related
The continued delay in getting new trains into service is one of them.
Other TOCs seem to be making much better progress with their fleet plans.
TfW (both TOC and WG agency) management admitted to major issues at the point Keolis-Amey bowed out in February.

Other TOCs received new stock that actually worked. TfW can't be blamed for the delays with the 230s and MKIVs - training has been taking place at a very good pace, once the trains have actually been working well enough for the training to happen.

 

[Bikeman78]

ATW didn't set a very high bar (though it was better than the prior incumbent, First North Western), but at least it was dependable.
The service up here has certainly deteriorated under TfW, for many complicated reasons, not all Covid-related
The continued delay in getting new trains into service is one of them.
Other TOCs seem to be making much better progress with their fleet plans.

Which TOCs did you have in mind? Greater Anglia certainly isn't one of them. They still chuck out pairs of non PRM 321s!

There was a brief period from December 2019 to March 2020 when it was going quite well. The 170s were up and running and I've never seen so many four car trains on the valleys but of course that was with all 30 Pacers still running. This also meant 150s were more easily available to cover for 158s in North Wales.

The problem is that only seven of the 12 170s are diagrammed. Really it would have been better if the 170s went to Scotrail, Northern or EMT and 12 150s or 158s came to Wales instead. Less crew training and a much more useful fleet for Wales. I also think that the incoming fleets were not enough to wipe out the Pacers. To go back to the old timetable would see the valleys go back to a two car railway, aside from the 769s on the Rhymney valley. I know hindsight is wonderful but doing PRM mods on the 143s, similar to 144012, would have solved a lot of problems.

Arriva were given a 15 years no growth franchise, which they followed to the letter. The fact it was clearly inadequate was down to the idiots who awarded the franchise.

They did make the authorities aware there was going to be a looming PRM crisis with such a late start with modifying trains to be compliant, but as it wasn't in their contract and nobody else seemed fussed about fixing things it's hard to blame them.

Totally agree. The concept of accessible stock was already a thing way back in 2003. It would have been very easy to put a clause in the contract stating that all trains had to be compliant when the franchise ended.

 

[PHILIPE]

The problem is that only seven of the 12 170s are diagrammed. Really it would have been better if the 170s went to Scotrail, Northern or EMT and 12 150s or 158s came to Wales instead. Less crew training and a much more useful fleet for Wales. I also think that the incoming fleets were not enough to wipe out the Pacers. To go back to the old timetable would see the valleys go back to a two car railway, aside from the 769s on the Rhymney valley. I know hindsight is wonderful but doing PRM mods on the 143s, similar to 144012, would have solved a lot of problems.

The 143s would never had been PRMd since going back to Failing Graylings time at the helm he stressed that Pacers have got to go. Distribution of units are determined by numbers on paper and not on everyday operating.

 

[Bikeman78]

The 143s would never had been PRMd since going back to Failing Graylings time at the helm he stressed that Pacers have got to go. Distribution of units are determined by numbers on paper and not on everyday operating.

Sorry I don't understand the second sentence. Can you elaborate?

 

[PHILIPE]

Sorry I don't understand the second sentence. Can you elaborate?

Try again. Just an aside, allocations to TOCs are based on what is required on paper and not on day to day operation in practice, i.e. providing additionals just in case.

 

[Bikeman78]

Try again. Just an aside, allocations to TOCs are based on what is required on paper and not on day to day operation in practice, i.e. providing additionals just in case.

Okay, I understand now but the arrival of the 170s had no impact on the Pacers whatsoever. They merely meant that the booked four cars on the valleys actually were four cars. I remain to be convinced that the collection of 153s, 230s and 769s would have been enough to replace the 26 diagrams covered by the 30 Pacers. Yes I get that they're a bit rubbish but if they make the difference between people being able to squeeze onto the train or not then it's a no brainer.

 

[markymark2000]

What exactly are your comments based on? Care to expand?

A lot of TfW's current issues actually stem from Arriva. As for the North/South issues, what is that based on?

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but to give such a scathing post about TfW without any substance is a bit pointless.

Comments based on actual experience with TFW. TFWs issues may stem back from Arriva bus as has been said, Arriva did what their contract asked. TFW could be doing things a lot quicker to get new trains in and they could be doing it with a lot less hassle for passengers. Tell me how they had stock to run trains pre covid and yet now post Covid they are still on vastly reduced timetables? Tell me why Arriva managed to cope with allocating the carriages properly and yet since TFW took over, some of the busiest Chester - Manchester trains. They replaced what was a full and generally some standing MK3 sets with a 2 car 175? It's bonkers. When I compare TFW to Northern, I've nothing really bad to say about Northern. Sufficient capacity, minimal delays and cheaper fares.

North/South issues I am basing on the fact that the south seems to keep the majority of it's services and they seem to send all the capacity there and do all they can to keep the south running even at the detriment to the north,

On top of everything, the Transport Minister was a North Walian (Ken Skates, Clwyd South), but has been replaced by a South Walian (Vaughan Gething, Cardiff South/Penarth).
Ken at least knew the local issues in the north, Vaughan has it all to learn.

ATW didn't set a very high bar (though it was better than the prior incumbent, First North Western), but at least it was dependable.
The service up here has certainly deteriorated under TfW, for many complicated reasons, not all Covid-related
The continued delay in getting new trains into service is one of them.
Other TOCs seem to be making much better progress with their fleet plans.
TfW (both TOC and WG agency) management admitted to major issues at the point Keolis-Amey bowed out in February.

ATW I thought set the bar high for Chester. Clean, regular, not many delays/cancellations. Overcrowding wasn't as frequent.
Even now when they want to try and bring in new trains, they are doing it by replacing normal trains. The Borderlands line is having a train taken out at lunch time so that TFW can train drivers on the 230s. Could you imagine taking away a lunch time Valley line service to test new trains? No because it wouldn't be allowed to happen. Up north though, no care at all. It's an hourly train and the hope was to bring the service up to half hourly. Why can't you train drivers inbetween the services as per happens everywhere else in the UK.

And your suggestion for what to do better is?

Take the trains away from the Welsh Govt who are using the railways just for political games and refranchise the contract to someone who has half a clue what they are doing and actually wants a railway which works for all of the network whether it be in England or Wales (vs the Welsh Govt who don't care about any English services or north Wales services, only South Wales services). That would be the best option.

 

[craigybagel]

Comments based on actual experience with TFW. TFWs issues may stem back from Arriva bus as has been said, Arriva did what their contract asked. TFW could be doing things a lot quicker to get new trains in and they could be doing it with a lot less hassle for passengers. Tell me how they had stock to run trains pre covid and yet now post Covid they are still on vastly reduced timetables?

They don't have the staff to run a full service. It's been impossible to keep to with the usual amount of training owing to Covid, plus what staff are available are also having to undertake training on new stock and/or routes

Tell me why Arriva managed to cope with allocating the carriages properly and yet since TFW took over, some of the busiest Chester - Manchester trains. They replaced what was a full and generally some standing MK3 sets with a 2 car 175? It's bonkers. When I compare TFW to Northern, I've nothing really bad to say about Northern. Sufficient capacity, minimal delays and cheaper fares.

They had to remove the MKIIIs from service, they were not compliant with PRM regulations. They didn't have anything else to replace them with

North/South issues I am basing on the fact that the south seems to keep the majority of it's services and they seem to send all the capacity there and do all they can to keep the south running even at the detriment to the north,

Have a look at the Valleys Timetables. There have been major cut backs. 50% reduction in many cases. Similarly the Cardiff - Swansea local service hasn't run all year and most Cheltenhams have been turned back short at Gloucester.

ATW I thought set the bar high for Chester. Clean, regular, not many delays/cancellations. Overcrowding wasn't as frequent.

Fewer people traveling back then. Passenger numbers (until Covid) have been riding constantly but the fleet hasn't. Come back in s few years when there will be both a dramatic increase in the number of carriages and services those carriages operate.

Even now when they want to try and bring in new trains, they are doing it by replacing normal trains. The Borderlands line is having a train taken out at lunch time so that TFW can train drivers on the 230s. Could you imagine taking away a lunch time Valley line service to test new trains? No because it wouldn't be allowed to happen. Up north though, no care at all. It's an hourly train and the hope was to bring the service up to half hourly. Why can't you train drivers inbetween the services as per happens everywhere else in the UK.

See above, not enough staff because Covid

Take the trains away from the Welsh Govt who are using the railways just for political games and refranchise the contract to someone who has half a clue what they are doing and actually wants a railway which works for all of the network whether it be in England or Wales (vs the Welsh Govt who don't care about any English services or north Wales services, only South Wales services). That would be the best option.

Until a few months ago the TfW franchise was being run by a joint venture of Keolis and Amey, and whilst both these multinationals have their fingers in many pies neither have, to the best of my knowledge, staff members elected to the Senedd.

 

[sd0733]

Comments based on actual experience with TFW. TFWs issues may stem back from Arriva bus as has been said, Arriva did what their contract asked. TFW could be doing things a lot quicker to get new trains in and they could be doing it with a lot less hassle for passengers. Tell me how they had stock to run trains pre covid and yet now post Covid they are still on vastly reduced timetables? Tell me why Arriva managed to cope with allocating the carriages properly and yet since TFW took over, some of the busiest Chester - Manchester trains. They replaced what was a full and generally some standing MK3 sets with a 2 car 175? It's bonkers. When I compare TFW to Northern, I've nothing really bad to say about Northern. Sufficient capacity, minimal delays and cheaper fares.

North/South issues I am basing on the fact that the south seems to keep the majority of it's services and they seem to send all the capacity there and do all they can to keep the south running even at the detriment to the north,


ATW I thought set the bar high for Chester. Clean, regular, not many delays/cancellations. Overcrowding wasn't as frequent.
Even now when they want to try and bring in new trains, they are doing it by replacing normal trains. The Borderlands line is having a train taken out at lunch time so that TFW can train drivers on the 230s. Could you imagine taking away a lunch time Valley line service to test new trains? No because it wouldn't be allowed to happen. Up north though, no care at all. It's an hourly train and the hope was to bring the service up to half hourly. Why can't you train drivers inbetween the services as per happens everywhere else in the UK.


Take the trains away from the Welsh Govt who are using the railways just for political games and refranchise the contract to someone who has half a clue what they are doing and actually wants a railway which works for all of the network whether it be in England or Wales (vs the Welsh Govt who don't care about any English services or north Wales services, only South Wales services). That would be the best option.

Unfortunately some of that simply isnt true. There have been loads of cuts in the South during covid.
Both in terms of frequency, Maesteg and Ebbw Vale as well as Gloucester/Cheltenham routes saw big cuts as have pretty much all the Valley lines too.
Theyve also seen a reduction in capacity with 60 pacer coaches as it stands being replaced by around 20 769s coaches in service as well as 13 additional 153s which are spread all over the network.
There are decisions that are made which do seem a little strange but are for sound reasons once they are understood.
Capacity wise, units are short supply due to a variety of reasons; late 769s, late 230s, loss of the mk3 and 14x fleet, 150/153/158 refresh, 175 refresh and.the difficulty in training. Whoever was in charge and making the decisions would have pretty much exactly the same issues with the current fleet and training issues.

 

[bramling]

And your suggestion for what to do better is?

Arriva were given a 15 years no growth franchise, which they followed to the letter. The fact it was clearly inadequate was down to the idiots who awarded the franchise.

They did make the authorities aware there was going to be a looming PRM crisis with such a late start with modifying trains to be compliant, but as it wasn't in their contract and nobody else seemed fussed about fixing things it's hard to blame them.

In general, whilst they didn't really do much good, it's hard to see how they did much bad either. You don't ever expect innovation from a company like Arriva.

Other TOCs received new stock that actually worked. TfW can't be blamed for the delays with the 230s and MKIVs - training has been taking place at a very good pace, once the trains have actually been working well enough for the training to happen.

Yes ATW was very much like the old Northern franchise - operationally competent, small pockets of innovation to address localised issues, but otherwise nothing transformational. They did exactly what they were asked to do.

 

[Caaardiff]

I probably should have worded my comments about ATW better, in that they were inherited from the ATW era, rather than ATW being responsible for the misgivings. There were many failings in the requirement of the Franchise given to ATW which has rolled over to the current Franchise, which in the long term TfW will have addressed on quite a large scale.

Comments based on actual experience with TFW. TFWs issues may stem back from Arriva bus as has been said, Arriva did what their contract asked. TFW could be doing things a lot quicker to get new trains in and they could be doing it with a lot less hassle for passengers. Tell me how they had stock to run trains pre covid and yet now post Covid they are still on vastly reduced timetables? Tell me why Arriva managed to cope with allocating the carriages properly and yet since TFW took over, some of the busiest Chester - Manchester trains. They replaced what was a full and generally some standing MK3 sets with a 2 car 175? It's bonkers. When I compare TFW to Northern, I've nothing really bad to say about Northern. Sufficient capacity, minimal delays and cheaper fares.

North/South issues I am basing on the fact that the south seems to keep the majority of it's services and they seem to send all the capacity there and do all they can to keep the south running even at the detriment to the north,


ATW I thought set the bar high for Chester. Clean, regular, not many delays/cancellations. Overcrowding wasn't as frequent.
Even now when they want to try and bring in new trains, they are doing it by replacing normal trains. The Borderlands line is having a train taken out at lunch time so that TFW can train drivers on the 230s. Could you imagine taking away a lunch time Valley line service to test new trains? No because it wouldn't be allowed to happen. Up north though, no care at all. It's an hourly train and the hope was to bring the service up to half hourly. Why can't you train drivers inbetween the services as per happens everywhere else in the UK.


Take the trains away from the Welsh Govt who are using the railways just for political games and refranchise the contract to someone who has half a clue what they are doing and actually wants a railway which works for all of the network whether it be in England or Wales (vs the Welsh Govt who don't care about any English services or north Wales services, only South Wales services). That would be the best option.

Many of the peak Chester - Manchester services are now 4 car, either 158 or 175. There's 2 4 car diagrams in the morning and one in the evening. I would say there's an even mix of 3 car 175's used in the South and the North. There are 4 car 158 diagrams running along the North Wales coast. There are no 4 car diagrams running along the South Wales mainline, only on Valleys services. Prior to covid, and i know from experience, rarely were people left behind on the North Coast or in the Manchester, full and standing yes, but rarely anyone left behind. On the Valleys, quite often people were left behind because of short forming. So Valleys services have suffered as much, if not more, from capacity issues.

The South certainly hasn't kept all of it's services, with the cuts seen across the South network already discussed.
The 769's and 230's were a stop gap because of the national shortage of rolling stock, they didn't really have much option. The 769's were procured by ATW and the WG.
As for test times, yes, some Valleys services were removed to accommodate 769 training. You can't train your drivers if you don't have enough drivers to maintain the schedule. Because of the training requirements across the network, it has meant it's been difficult to maintain the normal service. Maintain the normal service and you can't free up drivers to train which just extends the problem.

I think you have a very one (North) sided view of what TfW are up against currently. By no means are those in charge perfect and many chances have probably been missed, the majority of issues currently are out of TfW or the WG's hands. But the whole network can experience issues if anything goes wrong.

 

[47827]

To throw petrol on the anti TFW flames? The 1827 Crewe to Holyhead my mum boarded at Llandudno Junction tonight was a 4 car 175, running near enough to schedule. Not very busy seemingly but not a short form. Think she got a 3 car one down in the morning from Bangor in Arriva colours. I imagine the loadings would be better in normal times despite an excellent service to principal stations at that time on a Sunday evening West of Chester between both operators. These are far from the only 3 or 4 car sets I've noticed on the line on recent trips up there, although there have been plenty of 2 car units too (many booked and probably not currently full).

Will be interesting to see loadings after the big UK holiday and day tripper boost from tomorrow's changes to England and Wales rules. And indeed any extra commuters or even students returning after this week. I would pretty much agree with comments of Craig there and other posters, simply adding the point of it being a shame that certain solutions aren't there due to tightening up of regulations plus the influence of politicians over the years. Things do look like they may improve if the new stock proves adequate along with the possible release of units if mk4 sets gradually take over some services from Cardiff and Holyhead etc.

 

[Philip]

I probably should have worded my comments about ATW better, in that they were inherited from the ATW era, rather than ATW being responsible for the misgivings. There were many failings in the requirement of the Franchise given to ATW which has rolled over to the current Franchise, which in the long term TfW will have addressed on quite a large scale.



Many of the peak Chester - Manchester services are now 4 car, either 158 or 175. There's 2 4 car diagrams in the morning and one in the evening. I would say there's an even mix of 3 car 175's used in the South and the North. There are 4 car 158 diagrams running along the North Wales coast. There are no 4 car diagrams running along the South Wales mainline, only on Valleys services. Prior to covid, and i know from experience, rarely were people left behind on the North Coast or in the Manchester, full and standing yes, but rarely anyone left behind. On the Valleys, quite often people were left behind because of short forming. So Valleys services have suffered as much, if not more, from capacity issues.

The South certainly hasn't kept all of it's services, with the cuts seen across the South network already discussed.
The 769's and 230's were a stop gap because of the national shortage of rolling stock, they didn't really have much option. The 769's were procured by ATW and the WG.
As for test times, yes, some Valleys services were removed to accommodate 769 training. You can't train your drivers if you don't have enough drivers to maintain the schedule. Because of the training requirements across the network, it has meant it's been difficult to maintain the normal service. Maintain the normal service and you can't free up drivers to train which just extends the problem.

I think you have a very one (North) sided view of what TfW are up against currently. By no means are those in charge perfect and many chances have probably been missed, the majority of issues currently are out of TfW or the WG's hands. But the whole network can experience issues if anything goes wrong.

The problem is that, outside of the 4-car strengthened services, the majority of Manchester to Chester services are down to 2-car 175 formations, so that most of the Manchester-South Wales services can be formed of 3-car units. When ATW received the full quota of 175s after TPE/FNW work, they pretty much ensured most Manchester-North Wales services were formed of 3-coach 175s throughout the day, and this was over 10 years ago. So things aren't as good in that respect.

 

[Jez]

Okay, I understand now but the arrival of the 170s had no impact on the Pacers whatsoever. They merely meant that the booked four cars on the valleys actually were four cars. I remain to be convinced that the collection of 153s, 230s and 769s would have been enough to replace the 26 diagrams covered by the 30 Pacers. Yes I get that they're a bit rubbish but if they make the difference between people being able to squeeze onto the train or not then it's a no brainer.

To be fair the arrival of the 170s did indirectly help replace the pacers. The 170s work Ebbw Vale-Cardiff/Bridgend and Maesteg to Gloucester/Cheltenham Spa services which were mostly booked for 150s before the arrival of the 170s. There were also a few 158s, 175s and pacers that would turn up on these services. So the 150s that the 170s mostly replaced have allowed them to be used on the core valley lines in place of some of the pacers. Of course they needed the release of the 2 150s on the Borderlands line plus the 769s in service to fully replace the pacers plus extra 153s used on various services such as Pembroke Dock/Chester-Crewe etc have helped get more 150s for the core valley lines.

Its a shame the 170s are confined to the Ebbw Vale and Maesteg routes as they could help out on other services in South and West Wales when needed.

I do think its ridiculous that a 2 carriage train turns up and yet people are still expected to social distance. How can you if there isnt enough capacity provided to meet demand? Surely with a reduced timetable the spare trains should be used to strengthen the remaining services and aid social distancing. How busy are services into/out of Manchester on both the Chester/North Wales and Crewe/South Wales routes at present?

 

[Caaardiff]

I do think its ridiculous that a 2 carriage train turns up and yet people are still expected to social distance. How can you if there isnt enough capacity provided to meet demand? Surely with a reduced timetable the spare trains should be used to strengthen the remaining services and aid social distancing. How busy are services into/out of Manchester on both the Chester/North Wales and Crewe/South Wales routes at present?

There simply isn't the capacity anywhere on the network under the current timetable. There are no units sat around doing nothing. It's impossible for any train operator to provide enough carriages on busy routes and maintain social distancing.

All distance services are becoming very busy, but it's important to note that just because Manchester - Milford Haven trains may not be busy throughout, it doesn't mean other parts of of that route aren't. Manchester-Crewe, Hereford-Cardiff, Cardiff-Swansea to name a few are very busy routes at peak times, so a 3 car is required.

 

[B7rleThrasher]

When travel between Dublin and Holyhead is once again permitted, it'll be interesting to see the impact upon loadings - lots of bottled up demand from the Irish market, that's for sure!

 

[berneyarms]

When travel between Dublin and Holyhead is once again permitted, it'll be interesting to see the impact upon loadings - lots of bottled up demand from the Irish market, that's for sure!

I think that you'll find most of it, like before, will be flying across the Irish Sea.

 

[B7rleThrasher]

I think that you'll find most of it, like before, will be flying across the Irish Sea.

The fares will have a large impact - there have been plenty of times where I have attempted to book a Friday night flight back to the UK to find them to be 200EUR+ and have opted for SailRail instead!

 

[frodshamfella]

Some people seem to say how quiet the service is without actually using the service regularly, regular passengers realise it's a quite busy service at certain times.

Last bank holiday weekend the services along the N Wales coast were full, some trains got not to stop orders from Rhyl onwards next stop being Chester.

So passengers at prestatyn and flint had a long wait unfortunately, this may be a common practice this summer along the N Wales coast.

There's just a huge backlog of training like previously mentioned & delays in rolling stock introduction all due to a worldwide pandemic. All tocs have had issues but it's worse for TFW due to the mess they inherited from ATW.


It's going to be a chaotic summer if last bank holiday weekend is anything to go by, the caravan parks are all fully booked up this summer.

All the points you have mentioned seem to get ignored by many people, this year is the perfect storm for TFW.
None of the problems could have been predicted to happen & the solutions aren't as easy as many think.

I travel.mid afternoon last Saturday from Lime Street to Frodsham, there were many people getting off the inbound service, I can only imagine this will just increase with more things opening up as of today.

 

[berneyarms]

The fares will have a large impact - there have been plenty of times where I have attempted to book a Friday night flight back to the UK to find them to be 200EUR+ and have opted for SailRail instead!

Let’s be honest that’s surely booking at or close to the last minute.

You can be pretty sure that Michael O’Leary & Co. will be launching an aggressive campaign to get people back in the air.

Sail/Rail numbers collapsed once Ryanair arrived - I don’t see them returning any time soon once people are vaccinated.

 

[B7rleThrasher]

Let’s be honest that’s surely booking at or close to the last minute.

Sail/Rail numbers collapsed once Ryanair arrived - I don’t see them returning any time soon once people are vaccinated.

That was often 3-4 weeks in advance!

 

[berneyarms]

That was often 3-4 weeks in advance!

Let’s not exaggerate here - sail/rail numbers were generally single or low double numbers (low teens) per sailing pre-Covid.

Hardly going to put pressure on trains.

 

[Jez]

There simply isn't the capacity anywhere on the network under the current timetable. There are no units sat around doing nothing. It's impossible for any train operator to provide enough carriages on busy routes and maintain social distancing.

All distance services are becoming very busy, but it's important to note that just because Manchester - Milford Haven trains may not be busy throughout, it doesn't mean other parts of of that route aren't. Manchester-Crewe, Hereford-Cardiff, Cardiff-Swansea to name a few are very busy routes at peak times, so a 3 car is required.

I agree there isnt enough capacity but surely if some services are 2 hourly instead of hourly there should be sets available to strengthen and help with social distancing. What happens if social distancing isnt possible on busy services? Are people being turned away and told to wait for the next train and what if that is busy also. i know there are posters in Barry Island about queuing systems in place in the summer when there is hot weather/school holidays and services likely to be busy to what they are now.

 

[Bikeman78]

I agree there isnt enough capacity but surely if some services are 2 hourly instead of hourly there should be sets available to strengthen and help with social distancing. What happens if social distancing isnt possible on busy services? Are people being turned away and told to wait for the next train and what if that is busy also. i know there are posters in Barry Island about queuing systems in place in the summer when there is hot weather/school holidays and services likely to be busy to what they are now.

Most routes are back to hourly now. The extra Aberystwyth trains are still missing but that only saves one unit. Regarding busy trains, people will simply have to choose to get on or not, as they already do on trains and tubes around London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most routes are back to hourly now. The extra Aberystwyth trains are still missing but that only saves one unit. Regarding busy trains, people will simply have to choose to get on or not, as they already do on trains and tubes around London.

Bit easier to make that choice when the next Tube is in 2 minutes than if you're stood at Betws y Coed with 1/3 tph, though.

 

[Bikeman78]

Bit easier to make that choice when the next Tube is in 2 minutes than if you're stood at Betws y Coed with 1/3 tph, though.

True. But most Central line trains are more busy than most trains in Wales. Yet people are happy to pile on. People need to move on from the idea that trains will be empty. If they want to start travelling again, the chances are that other people will too!