Overloaded Carriages

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LesS

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Recently while travelling with VT in a 390 on the WCML to Euston we were ready to depart from Wakefield Westgate when the Train Manager announced that the driver had advised that car B was overloaded and passengers would need to be relocated. The alternative would be a 100mph speed limit.

I was in car B. I know that I am overweight but I did not think sufficiently to unbalance a 9 car train. There were many empty seats in car B. Passengers were relocated and we moved off at normal speeds.

What monitoring detectors and/or systems are there on 390 sets to tell a driver of car loadings? The system seems to compare loadings by car and calculate a relationship between them. This seems to me to be a very sophisticated control system. To what real purpose?
 
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Firesprite

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Recently while travelling with VT in a 390 on the WCML to Euston we were ready to depart from Wakefield Westgate when the Train Manager announced that the driver had advised that car B was overloaded and passengers would need to be relocated. The alternative would be a 100mph speed limit.
?
Wakefield Westgate? That's on the ECML
Do you mean Wigan Northwestern?
 

LesS

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Please accept my apologies for the misidentity.

The station was Warrington Bank Quay. The stop at station stop ended up as 10 minutes.
 

AlexS

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I believe Pendolinos are fitted with load sensors to manage their tilt systems - if it picks up that a single carriage is overloaded it will disable the tilt for the whole train causing it to run at reduced speed. Thus if one carriage only is showing in this state they will have a go at redistributing the passengers.
 

LesS

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Thank you for this explanation Alex. I suspected that there would be some kind of system as you described. It can only be described as very sophisticated.
 

All Line Rover

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I believe Pendolinos are fitted with load sensors to manage their tilt systems - if it picks up that a single carriage is overloaded it will disable the tilt for the whole train causing it to run at reduced speed. Thus if one carriage only is showing in this state they will have a go at redistributing the passengers.
That seems very, very strange. I've never experienced it myself. What happens on those quieter services where Standard Class can be fairly busy but First Class almost empty? What do they do then? Give some passengers a free upgrade? :lol:
 

rail-britain

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What happens on those quieter services where Standard Class can be fairly busy but First Class almost empty? What do they do then? Give some passengers a free upgrade?
The sensors usually fail quite early into the journey
I used to reserve a seat in Coach G, and quite often asked to move as they were downgrading this Coach
I now reserve seats in Coach J due to this
 

All Line Rover

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The sensors usually fail quite early into the journey
I used to reserve a seat in Coach G, and quite often asked to move as they were downgrading this Coach
I now reserve seats in Coach J due to this
I often travel on the 21:07 (London to Liverpool) or 21:10 (London to Preston). Usually it's just me in Coach G, maybe one or two other people. Standard Class is well loaded, but not once have I heard anything about the train needing to be "rebalanced."
 

David10

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That seems very, very strange. I've never experienced it myself. What happens on those quieter services where Standard Class can be fairly busy but First Class almost empty? What do they do then? Give some passengers a free upgrade? :lol:
Guards do have the authority to declassify First Class, but only if the train is considered overloaded. Certainly have seen FGW guard's do it on trains from Cardiff when rugby matches have been held.
 
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I believe Pendolinos are fitted with load sensors to manage their tilt systems - if it picks up that a single carriage is overloaded it will disable the tilt for the whole train causing it to run at reduced speed. Thus if one carriage only is showing in this state they will have a go at redistributing the passengers.
Vehicle loadings are represented in TMS by a constantly changing bar chart, if a vehicle reports that it is over loaded it advises the driver who then will then temporary isolate tilt, necessitating running at PS speeds, and advise the TM to re distribute passengers from the affected vehicle(s) where possible. If there's no room to move passengers then the train remains non tilt until the situation possibly resolves itself at the next station stop.
 

All Line Rover

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Guards do have the authority to declassify First Class, but only if the train is considered overloaded. Certainly have seen FGW guard's do it on trains from Cardiff when rugby matches have been held.
In the context of the thread we are not referring to overloaded in terms of people (which would necessitate declassification), but overloaded in terms of weight and an uneven balance. The thing is, I've never seen a Virgin TM ask some Standard Class passengers to move to First Class in order to "rebalance" the train. It also seems very odd for the weight of a few passengers to affect the balance of a train that weighs a few tonnes.
 

rail-britain

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I often travel on the 21:07 (London to Liverpool) or 21:10 (London to Preston). Usually it's just me in Coach G, maybe one or two other people. Standard Class is well loaded, but not once have I heard anything about the train needing to be "rebalanced."
I've heard all kinds of reasons, from electrical fault to air conditioning
Agree though, not yet heard rebalancing, and probably only discussed with the passengers within the affected coach so as not to be too alarming by broadcasting it over the PA

A long shot, but the set affected might be the same one that was abandoned at Carstairs a few days ago, with a severe tilt isolation fault
 

MCR247

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In the context of the thread we are not referring to overloaded in terms of people (which would necessitate declassification), but overloaded in terms of weight and an uneven balance. The thing is, I've never seen a Virgin TM ask some Standard Class passengers to move to First Class in order to "rebalance" the train. It also seems very odd for the weight of a few passengers to affect the balance of a train that weighs a few tonnes.
Where does 'rebalance' come from? This suggests that the train will have problems if standard class is at 95% loadings and First is at 13% so people have to move to make it more even, and AFAIK that isn't the case?
 

rail-britain

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Where does 'rebalance' come from?
There really isn't any other term to use that is appropriate, as above it would be easier to simply ask some passengers to move to First Class for the inconvenience caused to them (I suspect that will be policy in place) rather than try to explain the coach is experiencing heavy passengers!
 

mullin

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I've heard all kinds of reasons, from electrical fault to air conditioning
Agree though, not yet heard rebalancing, and probably only discussed with the passengers within the affected coach so as not to be too alarming by broadcasting it over the PA

A long shot, but the set affected might be the same one that was abandoned at Carstairs a few days ago, with a severe tilt isolation fault




By a few days ago are we talking last Tuesday? Just I was on a train that came to a sudden stop somewhere north of Carlisle due to the tilt failing on the train, 40mph all the way to Carstairs... Joyous!
 

rail-britain

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By a few days ago are we talking last Tuesday? Just I was on a train that came to a sudden stop somewhere north of Carlisle due to the tilt failing on the train, 40mph all the way to Carstairs... Joyous
That's the one, the unit was later moved to the loop and sat there for two days
 

mullin

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2 days to shift a train?!?! (Think it was pendo 032 too from the wifi page). As someone who doesn't know how this stuff works, could it not trundle along at 40mph at night time to a depot somewhere with the rear carriage leaning in the other direction??
Best announcement on board though: We were stopped in some siding somewhere, train manager comes on and says something along the lines of "apologies for the hold up, we are just going to have to wait here for a few minutes whilst a smaller train passes us". cue a tpe train passing us moments later and blows its horn! The poor Virgin driver must have been embarrassed!
Have sent off my tickets so should hear back from Virgin in 3 weeks or so. Made a note on the claim form that the announcements were brilliant at keeping us up-to date... or maybe I'm too used to being held outside Wigan Wallgate next to the signal box and being told nothing for 10-15 minutes by Northern....
 

MCR247

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2 days to shift a train?!?! (Think it was pendo 032 too from the wifi page). As someone who doesn't know how this stuff works, could it not trundle along at 40mph at night time to a depot somewhere with the rear carriage leaning in the other direction??
Best announcement on board though: We were stopped in some siding somewhere, train manager comes on and says something along the lines of "apologies for the hold up, we are just going to have to wait here for a few minutes whilst a smaller train passes us". cue a tpe train passing us moments later and blows its horn! The poor Virgin driver must have been embarrassed!
Have sent off my tickets so should hear back from Virgin in 3 weeks or so.
I doubt that problem was due to overloading?
 

rail-britain

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I doubt that problem was due to overloading?
The fault was due to tilt mechanical failure

Not what I am suggesting, this set might have been repaired, but the tilt sensor is still faulty resulting in this unusual announcement (also assuming it is the same set)

As with all such mechanical failures, the outcome (visible fault) may not actually be the cause
 

Joseph_Locke

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Pendos have an underlying design which means that at full tilt, maximum cant deficiency and maximum normal windspeed the factor of safety in the overturning calculation becomes so close to the minimum allowable that an uneven passenger loading can push it down to an unnacceptable level. This is particularly an issue in shop coaches where the layout can encourage an off-centre queue.

Part of the safety case requires that the train manage this, and it does so via the loading data on TMS (as it can't monkey with tilt, cant deficiency or windspeed).
 

IanD

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Recently while travelling with VT in a 390 on the WCML to Euston we were ready to depart from Wakefield Westgate when the Train Manager announced that the driver had advised that car B was overloaded and passengers would need to be relocated. The alternative would be a 100mph speed limit.

I was in car B. I know that I am overweight but I did not think sufficiently to unbalance a 9 car train. There were many empty seats in car B. Passengers were relocated and we moved off at normal speeds.

What monitoring detectors and/or systems are there on 390 sets to tell a driver of car loadings? The system seems to compare loadings by car and calculate a relationship between them. This seems to me to be a very sophisticated control system. To what real purpose?
Maybe wouldn't happen if they didn't insist on putting reservations for Advance tickets in Coach B by default. Can't remember the last time I was allocated another coach without requesting the quiet coach.
 

rail-britain

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maximum normal windspeed the factor of safety in the overturning calculation becomes so close to the minimum allowable that an uneven passenger loading can push it down to an unnacceptable level
I've been on Class 390 in a variety of weather conditions and never noticed the performance being affected by high wind conditions
Do you happen to know what the maximum wind speed is, before this becomes an issue?
Equally, as yet, I have not been any Class 390 where the tilt has been deactivated, except when off-route

The 04:28 Glasgow - Euston appears to have the tilt switched off at the beginning of the journey (as it does not tilt through Rutherglen) but on returning to the WCML after passing through Holytown the tilt is very much working as normal
 
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