P&O Ferries to permanently stop accepting foot passengers on their Dover to Calais route.

[Lemmy99uk]

It is fair to say that Seat 61 is very biased against coach travel. In western Europe trains are normally the main form of inter-city public transport, but there are regions where the coach is useful, for example Ireland, the north of the Nordics, the Baltics and the Balkans. Seat 61 never discusses such options. Cross-Channel coaches are a lot more sensible than using the Dover-Calais ferry, given the severe limitations of the ferry nowadays, but again are not mentioned by Seat 61.

I’m not sure if you realise, but the full site title is;

The Man in Seat 61...
How to travel by TRAIN in UK, Europe & Worldwide. (My caps)

 

[AdamWW]

It is fair to say that Seat 61 is very biased against coach travel. In western Europe trains are normally the main form of inter-city public transport, but there are regions where the coach is useful, for example Ireland, the north of the Nordics, the Baltics and the Balkans. Seat 61 never discusses such options.

I have seen the web site mention coach travel....but only to try to persuade people that they shouldn't even contemplate it.

It's an amazingly useful resource but as you say a little biased in that regard.

 

[AlterEgo]

I’m not sure if you realise, but the full site title is;

The Man in Seat 61...
How to travel by TRAIN in UK, Europe & Worldwide. (My caps)

Yes, imagine the audacity for the train expert website to only encourage people and give advice on how to take trains.

 

[nw1]

I find them generally somewhere between disinterested and welcoming. These ones weren't, they were downright abrasive.

Actually to be fair (and ironically, given the politics of the past 3 years) the British border guards at Gatwick have improved significantly recently. As a UK-born UK citizen who has lived permanently in the UK, I have been given extremely suspicious treatment by them in the past.

US border guards on the other hand are generally extremely suspicious, but I found the ones at Toronto (before getting a Canada-US flight, they check your passport at Toronto) very much better. Maybe, in a pseudo-EU type arrangement, they consider Canadians less suspicious than other foreigners. But then again, the ones on the land border on the I-5 and its Canadian equivalent between Vancouver and Seattle were the worst I ever encountered (they seemed to resent the fact that I was gradually travelling down the west coast over two weeks) though if I had been a Canadian maybe I would just have been waved through with a quick passport check.

 

[Cloud Strife]

This does seem very cheap, compare that with Red Funnel fares to the IoW, a domestic route with a considerably smaller distance, but the price of a standard single (£18.90) is more than half that to Dieppe.

Unless something has changed, this route is subsidised by the French (local? regional?) authorities, which probably explains why the fares are so low for the distance.

I expect that, at Calais, passengers walking from the ship to the terminal has been risk assessed and decided too great a risk.

More likely that it's simply cheaper to use a bus. Calais is very unionised, and it's likely that the working practices there for use of the gangway required several staff when the job could be done by one.

But I can't help but think that the practices at Dover and Calais really discourage people from travel. Even before Estonia joined the EU and Schengen, it was quite possible to arrive 15-20 minutes before departure on Helsinki-Tallinn and still make it on board. Calais is a little bit better because of passport control being carried out in the terminal building on departure, which is how it used to be done in Dover's Travel Centre too.

I appreciate that there's a difference between Helsinki-Tallinn and Dover-Calais, but it seems ridiculous that Dover doesn't have passport control *before* you get on the bus.

 

[AdamWW]

Yes, imagine the audacity for the train expert website to only encourage people and give advice on how to take trains.

I really like the web site and find it a very useful resource.

And as a rail web site you wouldn't expect it to give much in the way of information on how to travel by coach.

But that doesn't necessary mean it can't point out occasions where a coach might be more practical (e.g. cross-channel journeys) and in particular it doesn't need to give a list of (somewhat subjective) reasons why people should take a longer journey with a change of trains instead of a direct DB coach. (I would probably get the train unless I was really pushed for time, but I appreciate why lots of people wouldn't)

 

[Bletchleyite]

US border guards on the other hand are generally extremely suspicious, but I found the ones at Toronto (before getting a Canada-US flight, they check your passport at Toronto) very much better.

The Canadian ones are cool (but still thorough). I got "Welcome to Canada, dude!"

Whereas when I was about 17 I was threatened with deportation from the US for forgetting to sign the visa waiver card, which is just stupid.

 

[30907]

It is fair to say that Seat 61 is very biased against coach travel. In western Europe trains are normally the main form of inter-city public transport, but there are regions where the coach is useful, for example Ireland, the north of the Nordics, the Baltics and the Balkans. Seat 61 never discusses such options.

Certainly he references them for the Baltics, where international rail links are dire.

Given that the site was set up to provide an alternative to flying, rather than to be a complete world travel guide, I think he is right to leave the rest to the ERT.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I find them generally somewhere between disinterested and welcoming. These ones weren't, they were downright abrasive.

Perhaps they'd work well on Euston's gateline then
I wonder if the ferry will even stay around for much longer anyway? The Eurotunnel is surely a more convenient way to go, and while I'd rather take the ferry myself, I wouldn't be surprised to see it become obsolete.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I wonder if the ferry will even stay around for much longer anyway? The Eurotunnel is surely a more convenient way to go, and while I'd rather take the ferry myself, I wouldn't be surprised to see it become obsolete.

There are certain goods that are not permitted through the Chunnel, so there would likely be some kind of ongoing ferry service, even if much reduced from the present offering.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

There are certain goods that are not permitted through the Chunnel, so there would likely be some kind of ongoing ferry service, even if much reduced from the present offering.

I more foresaw a sort of freight-only service, although I suppose that's opening a new can of worms altogether

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps they'd work well on Euston's gateline then
I wonder if the ferry will even stay around for much longer anyway? The Eurotunnel is surely a more convenient way to go, and while I'd rather take the ferry myself, I wouldn't be surprised to see it become obsolete.

Given that the Tunnel opened in 1990 or thereabouts I think they're OK

The key thing is as others have said freight (and coaches). In particular that the crossing is long enough to count as a legal off-vehicle break, which the tunnel isn't.

 

[busestrains]

The ferries to and from Dover have actually increased in recent years. They are more frequent now than they were a couple of years ago. There used to only be two operators (DFDS and P&O) but now a third operator (Irish Ferries) has started running the route. So i really can not see the Dover ferries being stopped or reduced. I think there is still a big market with travellers wanting to take the ferry.

 

[30907]

The ferries to and from Dover have actually increased in recent years. They are more frequent now than they were a couple of years ago. There used to only be two operators (DFDS and P&O) but now a third operator (Irish Ferries) has started running the route. So i really can not see the Dover ferries being stopped or reduced. I think there is still a big market with travellers wanting to take the ferry.

Agree (though not for foot passengers). Having tried both, from Yorkshire I would use the ferry to get a proper break from driving, rather than sit in the car on the Shuttle (even better was Hull-Zeebrugge of blessed memory).

 

[paul1609]

Agree (though not for foot passengers). Having tried both, from Yorkshire I would use the ferry to get a proper break from driving, rather than sit in the car on the Shuttle (even better was Hull-Zeebrugge of blessed memory).

Being local Id always use Le shuttle its able to deal with disruption much better than the ferries post Brexit. Both the A2 and the A20 are vulnerable to snarl ups following even minor disruption. If you use the M/A20 route you have to go along Dover Sea Front which just seizes up if one ship is cancelled. If you need a break take Le shuttle and go in to Cite d Europe at the Calais end it would still be quicker in most cases. If your going to Paris or the South of France then look at Newhaven/ Dieppe if you can make the times work, a cabin is surprisingly good value overnight

 

[kylemore]

The ferries to and from Dover have actually increased in recent years. They are more frequent now than they were a couple of years ago. There used to only be two operators (DFDS and P&O) but now a third operator (Irish Ferries) has started running the route. So i really can not see the Dover ferries being stopped or reduced. I think there is still a big market with travellers wanting to take the ferry.

Would the tunnel even have the capacity to take all the ferry traffic?

 

[zwk500]

Would the tunnel even have the capacity to take all the ferry traffic?

Not without additional rolling stock and a rejig of the capacity allocation, I suspect. Those boats are big, even if they do take about twice as long to do a round trip.

 

[30907]

Being local Id always use Le shuttle its able to deal with disruption much better than the ferries post Brexit. Both the A2 and the A20 are vulnerable to snarl ups following even minor disruption. If you use the M/A20 route you have to go along Dover Sea Front which just seizes up if one ship is cancelled.

Fair point, it is a good 25 years since I stopped using short sea routes for France

If you're going to Paris or the South of France then look at Newhaven/ Dieppe if you can make the times work, a cabin is suprisingly good value overnight.

I need a decent night's sleep at my age, so it's St Malo for me overnight - but yes, we have over the years used almost every cross-channel route (bar the fast craft, which from experience don't suit us). Disembarking at Newhaven wasn't brilliant, and hitting the end of the M25 rush-hour none too special - but then from the North Dover isn't brilliant and Pompey means the A34 past Oxford so....

 

[philthetube]

Whereas when I was about 17 I was threatened with deportation from the US for forgetting to sign the visa waiver card, which is just stupid.

Bet you never forgot again.

 

[leytongabriel]

They have been really nice at Dieppe when you arrive - bit of a charm offensive I think to encourage people to use the route.

 

[busestrains]

They have been really nice at Dieppe when you arrive - bit of a charm offensive I think to encourage people to use the route.

Yes i have always found the staff at both Newhaven and Dieppe to be very nice and pleasant. Every time i travel both the ferry staff and customs staff at both ports are great. Very different to the staff at Dover and Calais and Dunkirk who are usually not as friendly. It is just another reason that the Newhaven to Dieppe ferry is my preferred route.

 

[paul1609]

Fair point, it is a good 25 years since I stopped using short sea routes for France

I need a decent night's sleep at my age, so it's St Malo for me overnight - but yes, we have over the years used almost every cross-channel route (bar the fast craft, which from experience don't suit us). Disembarking at Newhaven wasn't brilliant, and hitting the end of the M25 rush-hour none too special - but then from the North Dover isn't brilliant and Pompey means the A34 past Oxford so....

Newhaven isnt too bad if you go up the A26 to the Lewes Bypass then A27 to the A23/M23 then M25 Anti clockwise via the Dartford Crossing, M11, A14 and A1 to Yorkshire. Dartford queus in the peak but its no worse than from Dover.
Just avoid the M25 from Junction 9 to the M40.

 

[zwk500]

Newhaven isnt too bad if you go up the A26 to the Lewes Bypass then A27 to the A23/M23 then M25 Anti clockwise via the Dartford Crossing, M11, A14 and A1 to Yorkshire. Dartford queus in the peak but its no worse than from Dover.
Just avoid the M25 from Junction 9 to the M40.

Newhaven is a pain to get out of the town itself though, especially the afternoon arrival as that can get snarled up in the congestion the town always suffers from. the local road layout is a prisoner of the economic geography but is far from ideal.
Once you're on the A26 you can really get stuck behind the lorries as well, it's only once you've got on to the 2+1 section that it starts flowing a fairly freely.
I'd personally say if you're on the side of the M25 that would normally take you over the Dartford Crossing then you're better off using le Shuttle, although it does depend on your ultimate destination and origin points. A1 is a nicer drive but only if you're going to York or further North, otherwise you're better off crawling past heathrow and then being able to make good progress from the M40 interchange onwards.

 

[paul1609]

Newhaven is a pain to get out of the town itself though, especially the afternoon arrival as that can get snarled up in the congestion the town always suffers from. the local road layout is a prisoner of the economic geography but is far from ideal.
Once you're on the A26 you can really get stuck behind the lorries as well, it's only once you've got on to the 2+1 section that it starts flowing a fairly freely.
I'd personally say if you're on the side of the M25 that would normally take you over the Dartford Crossing then you're better off using le Shuttle, although it does depend on your ultimate destination and origin points. A1 is a nicer drive but only if you're going to York or further North, otherwise you're better off crawling past heathrow and then being able to make good progress from the M40 interchange onwards.

I think you've been unlucky or gone in to Brighton. Off the ferry turn right across the level crossing and 1st exit on to the A26 and youre out of Newhaven.
You're right that the first 6 miles is single carriageway and there is a lot of lorry traffic but this is a lot quicker than exiting Dover.
Newhaven via the A23 is within 5 miles of the distance of Dover ferry Port via the M20 from the Dartford Crossing.
I guess you have not been round the M25 since the works to reconstruct Junction 10 (A3) started in November. The stop/ Start queue for the M40 generally starts somewhere between Junction 8 and 9. If you go through the Dartford Tunnel the route via the M11 and A14 is only 3 miles longer to the M1/M6 junction than continuing on the M25 to the M1. The only time Id use the M1 south of the M6 Junction is in the unlikely event (god forbid) that I needed to go to Luton Airport or Milton Keynes. I think the last time I drove to MK was to see Simple Minds at the Bowl!

 

[Gordon]

Perhaps they'd work well on Euston's gateline then
I wonder if the ferry will even stay around for much longer anyway? The Eurotunnel is surely a more convenient way to go, and while I'd rather take the ferry myself, I wouldn't be surprised to see it become obsolete.

That won't happen.

Even with Brexit there is still demand for both the short sea ferries and the Tunnel shuttle

 

[hartcjhart]

It looks like P&O may have had a change of heart or the original rumour was false.. Their website is now allowing foot passenger bookings in 2023, whereas previously they had stopped selling them after 23rd of this month....

Yes foot passenger tickets are still available but on restricted crossings I think 3 a day,I came backthat way on Friday

It is fair to say that Seat 61 is very biased against coach travel. In western Europe trains are normally the main form of inter-city public transport, but there are regions where the coach is useful, for example Ireland, the north of the Nordics, the Baltics and the Balkans. Seat 61 never discusses such options. Cross-Channel coaches are a lot more sensible than using the Dover-Calais ferry, given the severe limitations of the ferry nowadays, but again are not mentioned by Seat 61.

The site is not biased against coach/bus travel BUT it is about TRAIN travel,there is another site that gives options on flights/bus/train travel link here

Rome2Rio: discover how to get anywhere

Discover how to get anywhere by searching plane, train, bus, car and ferry routes

www.rome2rio.com

 

[paul1609]

It looks like P&O may have had a change of heart or the original rumour was false.. Their website is now allowing foot passenger bookings in 2023, whereas previously they had stopped selling them after 23rd of this month....

Met somebody who works at Port of Dover on an unrelated matter this weekend. He reckons that P&O didn't load the foot passenger tickets because they didn't have a definite schedule of which type of ship was going to be used on which sailing this year. Somebody saw this on the website and concluded they had made a decision to withdraw the foot passenger facilities, so a 2+2=5. He also said that foot passenger demand is very very low and that he thinks it won't ever go back to loads of sailings.

 

[Wolfie]

The Channel Tunnel should never have been built. It made short notice cross Channel rail travel unviable except for business travel.

What an utterly ridiculous comment.

 

[johncrossley]

What an utterly ridiculous comment.

Ridiculous but true

 

[zwk500]

Ridiculous but true

No it isn't. The Channel Tunnel has been largely irrelevant to this incredibly niche market, it's Low-cost Airlines your ire should be turned on.